200 yard group size, what do you consider good?
- Thread starter DiRTY DOG
- Start date
BCD 45
Member
MotoHunter, agreed! Just use a come a long attached to a post behind you to help with the trigger pull.
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jamesd, I'd like to have a 1/4" moa 17HMR also. My Sako Quad is great but it ain't no 1/4" gun for sure. I'll take a 1/4" 5 shot anything!
Never seen a 17HMR that would shoot a 5 shot 1/4" 100 yard group much less at 200 yards.
Jim D
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jamesd, I'd like to have a 1/4" moa 17HMR also. My Sako Quad is great but it ain't no 1/4" gun for sure. I'll take a 1/4" 5 shot anything!
Never seen a 17HMR that would shoot a 5 shot 1/4" 100 yard group much less at 200 yards.
Jim D
NdIndy
New member
Originally Posted By: msincWhenever varmint rifle accuracy questions come up and guys start quoting "group size" I have to wonder if their rifles did it once, occasionally or consistently. And, even more important, what's this rifle doing with the first shot cold bore??? Because to me this one, out of a hunting rifle, is more important than benchrest shooting style groups.
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its pretty simple, theres no reason to make it difficult.
Go to the range and put 10 shots on target. Take the top 3 in largest size,and bottom 3 in consistency and discount them. You now have an average just like the olympic ice skaters. Then you take that 1 "flyer" and ignore it. You now have your 3 shot bragging group.
Then stop shooting. As its your only group it has done it "all day long" and since its getting dark, its "lights out". And if you're using an old volkswagon to hold your target, you've got "bug holes".
See? easy.
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its pretty simple, theres no reason to make it difficult.
Go to the range and put 10 shots on target. Take the top 3 in largest size,and bottom 3 in consistency and discount them. You now have an average just like the olympic ice skaters. Then you take that 1 "flyer" and ignore it. You now have your 3 shot bragging group.
Then stop shooting. As its your only group it has done it "all day long" and since its getting dark, its "lights out". And if you're using an old volkswagon to hold your target, you've got "bug holes".
See? easy.
Winny Fan
New member
Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: msincWhenever varmint rifle accuracy questions come up and guys start quoting "group size" I have to wonder if their rifles did it once, occasionally or consistently. And, even more important, what's this rifle doing with the first shot cold bore??? Because to me this one, out of a hunting rifle, is more important than benchrest shooting style groups.
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its pretty simple, theres no reason to make it difficult.
Go to the range and put 10 shots on target. Take the top 3 in largest size,and bottom 3 in consistency and discount them. You now have an average just like the olympic ice skaters. Then you take that 1 "flyer" and ignore it. You now have your 3 shot bragging group.
Then stop shooting. As its your only group it has done it "all day long" and since its getting dark, its "lights out". And if you're using an old volkswagon to hold your target, you've got "bug holes".
See? easy.
Good one. That pretty well describes why everyone can be an expert shot on the internet.
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its pretty simple, theres no reason to make it difficult.
Go to the range and put 10 shots on target. Take the top 3 in largest size,and bottom 3 in consistency and discount them. You now have an average just like the olympic ice skaters. Then you take that 1 "flyer" and ignore it. You now have your 3 shot bragging group.
Then stop shooting. As its your only group it has done it "all day long" and since its getting dark, its "lights out". And if you're using an old volkswagon to hold your target, you've got "bug holes".
See? easy.
Good one. That pretty well describes why everyone can be an expert shot on the internet.
huntschool
Member
Reality for me is, I would like to have those BR groups all day long..... But, I'll take one shot, cold barrel, in the bull (or 1 MOA) at what ever yardage (out to 350-400) all day long for hunting. I only shoot single shot stuff so getting a quick second shot really does not happen for me much if at all. So, good barrels and triggers are very important as is good box ammo.
I also try to get % shots for my benefit. Lets remember, as someone said above, this is a predator site. Sure high performance accuracy can go hand and hand and likely should but its the first shot that counts.
Just the thoughts of some old guy.
I also try to get % shots for my benefit. Lets remember, as someone said above, this is a predator site. Sure high performance accuracy can go hand and hand and likely should but its the first shot that counts.
Just the thoughts of some old guy.
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MPFD
Well-known member
This was 3 shots at 300 yards from my AR in fairly quick succession. I'm happy with that, even pulling the third shot left. I'm sure I could do better if I practiced enough. 50 grain Vmax with benchmark, lake city brass and cci primers. AR is an 18" WOA varmint barrel, turned down to a straight .750 contour, 3-9x40 Leupold MARK AR mod 1, and RRA National match trigger. Off a bipod and rear bag out of the bed of my truck. I brought it 2 clicks (1/10 mil) left and fired the shot you see covered there. There was a bit of wind I suspect causing the drift so I brought it up one and set the windage back to zero. That is minute of varmint in my books.
The Famous Grouse
New member
Originally Posted By: msincWhenever varmint rifle accuracy questions come up and guys start quoting "group size" I have to wonder if their rifles did it once, occasionally or consistently. And, even more important, what's this rifle doing with the first shot cold bore??? Because to me this one, out of a hunting rifle, is more important than benchrest shooting style groups.
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This^^^.
I see so many laughable claims about 1 inch groups at 200+++++ yards it's laughable.
First off, anybody can get lucky and pull one lucky 3 shot group at any distance so as our President would say, 3 shot groups are fake news. Man up and fire a REAL group with 2 more shots and then we'll separate the men from the boys.
Also, the vast majority of your weekend sniper wannabes are woefully unable to handle any change in conditions, so the wild accuracy claims are even more suspect. To me, it ain't a group unless you can do it more than once and if you're reliant on perfect conditions you're not going to be able to handle anything in hunting.
Grouse
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This^^^.
I see so many laughable claims about 1 inch groups at 200+++++ yards it's laughable.
First off, anybody can get lucky and pull one lucky 3 shot group at any distance so as our President would say, 3 shot groups are fake news. Man up and fire a REAL group with 2 more shots and then we'll separate the men from the boys.
Also, the vast majority of your weekend sniper wannabes are woefully unable to handle any change in conditions, so the wild accuracy claims are even more suspect. To me, it ain't a group unless you can do it more than once and if you're reliant on perfect conditions you're not going to be able to handle anything in hunting.
Grouse
Originally Posted By: MPFDI love how accuracy threads always turn into di$k measuring contests over shot count in a group. Never fails...
What I find amazing is that people claim accuracy out of off the shelf low budget rifles that is hard to get out of high end production or custom rifles. I know there are some really good shooters on this forum, but I also know there are a lot of bull poopers here as well. I have known some of them, they shoot one group one time that was under half an inch and forever there after their rifle shoots 1/2 moa "all day long".
I used to know a guy that couldn't group on paper for beans, I mean a 4 or 5 inch group at 100 off the bench was the best he could do, but would go out hunting and shoot 300 to 500 yards, and tell me that he "always gets his bull".
Average shooters with average guns do not come anywhere near 1 moa at 200 yards. One time I was at the range a few days before a rifle season. I was shooting an iron sighted 1885 winchester, I shot by far the best group out of all the shooters there. Most people can't shoot for beans!
What I find amazing is that people claim accuracy out of off the shelf low budget rifles that is hard to get out of high end production or custom rifles. I know there are some really good shooters on this forum, but I also know there are a lot of bull poopers here as well. I have known some of them, they shoot one group one time that was under half an inch and forever there after their rifle shoots 1/2 moa "all day long".
I used to know a guy that couldn't group on paper for beans, I mean a 4 or 5 inch group at 100 off the bench was the best he could do, but would go out hunting and shoot 300 to 500 yards, and tell me that he "always gets his bull".
Average shooters with average guns do not come anywhere near 1 moa at 200 yards. One time I was at the range a few days before a rifle season. I was shooting an iron sighted 1885 winchester, I shot by far the best group out of all the shooters there. Most people can't shoot for beans!
NdIndy
New member
Hehehe, i kill me
Personally i put a rifle in a vice and lock that mother down to see what rifle can do and set mpbr. Then i prone on a bipod and see what I can do, as thats how i hunt. There was a time i could shoot as good as my rifle, but then i quit Prarie dogging.
I know i can (could since I'm seriously out of practice) do a terrific 3 shot group. If i do 5 i get 4 stacked. 10, i get 9 stacked.
I will always screw up 1 shot in a group. Sometimes more, but i can pretty much guarantee that 1.
Minute of target is all I after when actually hunting. As long as i can consistently take the vitals I'm happy. Even out of practice i can 1 shot a goat at 400, it just takes more concentration than it used to.
Or could anyway, i might be basically hunting retired now since i moved to Florida.
Personally i put a rifle in a vice and lock that mother down to see what rifle can do and set mpbr. Then i prone on a bipod and see what I can do, as thats how i hunt. There was a time i could shoot as good as my rifle, but then i quit Prarie dogging.
I know i can (could since I'm seriously out of practice) do a terrific 3 shot group. If i do 5 i get 4 stacked. 10, i get 9 stacked.
I will always screw up 1 shot in a group. Sometimes more, but i can pretty much guarantee that 1.
Minute of target is all I after when actually hunting. As long as i can consistently take the vitals I'm happy. Even out of practice i can 1 shot a goat at 400, it just takes more concentration than it used to.
Or could anyway, i might be basically hunting retired now since i moved to Florida.
SlickerThanSnot
New member
i always thought it was really bizarre that you lived in wyoming and never killed a coyote.
NdIndy
New member
Hehehe, my life total of coyote kills is... 1. Taken on my very last antelope hunt. I started keeping a chart, if i ever mentioned going coyote hunting the wind would blow 50-60mph for at least a week so actual coyote hunting was futile.
Every one i ever came across happened to come out within 30 minutes of when i expected whatever i was actually hunting to start moving, execept 2. So i always watched them come and go and stayed quiet. My 1 actual kill i found after hiking into a piece of land to glass a herd of goats, none i wanted to take, and jumped him on my way out. He dropped into terrain before i could get set. I jumped him again driving out, got out and he was quartering at full sprint and dropped at around 270 yards iirc. Pretty happy with that shot.
The other, i took my wife deer hunting and i was sitting om a fenceline waiting for the sun to start setting,my wife was standing about 20 yards away. I watched him trotting the fenceline towards her and expected it to bolt. But apparently the dumbest dog alive because he got within 5 yards of her butt, she turned around and they spotted each other at the same time. Scared the poop out of each other.
I decided it would not be good for my marriage to put a round that close to her, especially since i was laughing so hard i think i cracked a rib.
Every one i ever came across happened to come out within 30 minutes of when i expected whatever i was actually hunting to start moving, execept 2. So i always watched them come and go and stayed quiet. My 1 actual kill i found after hiking into a piece of land to glass a herd of goats, none i wanted to take, and jumped him on my way out. He dropped into terrain before i could get set. I jumped him again driving out, got out and he was quartering at full sprint and dropped at around 270 yards iirc. Pretty happy with that shot.
The other, i took my wife deer hunting and i was sitting om a fenceline waiting for the sun to start setting,my wife was standing about 20 yards away. I watched him trotting the fenceline towards her and expected it to bolt. But apparently the dumbest dog alive because he got within 5 yards of her butt, she turned around and they spotted each other at the same time. Scared the poop out of each other.
I decided it would not be good for my marriage to put a round that close to her, especially since i was laughing so hard i think i cracked a rib.
varminter .223
Well-known member
I have a j lock era vls 223 that really will stack 40 v maxes at .5" all day long. Ok well it might throw one at .6 now and then but it really is rediculous. With that said Im not a .223 fan or a 40 vmax fan. That rifle ruined me. I don't mind .750 100 yard groups but those 1 inch or beyond flyers really irritate me. Im starting to wonder if my problem is too many rifles and no really good glass.
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6mm06
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: AWSMost of my guns won't even hold 3 three shells and I've never had to fire five at any critter, so if the first three are close together, the next two aren't of any use.
Exactly. I used to be one that thought I had to have a perfect and tight 5-shot group or the rifle was no good. Then I wised up and realized I was just burning powder and bullets and hoping, when many times human error would destroy a group. Too many variables to rely on so many shots as the true worth or accuracy of a rifle. I then went to three shots, and later with some rifles, a 2-shot group, particularly with the big caliber ones. A 2-shot group tells me all I need to know. If two shots from a cold barrel are close together consistently then that translates into a good hunting firearm.
Two separate 2-shot groups, .375 H&H Mag.
MotoHunter
New member
I agree with what's being put out here. A tight 5 shot group at 200 yds has less to do with the rifle than it does the shooter of the rifle. A rifle that could win most long distance competitions in the wrong shooters hands won't group worth a hoot, plain and simple. A good rifle is only part of the equation. The shooter has to know how to do their part as well.