.243 for elk? d

This will settle it! Now we can clean the .22 and go grizzly hunting.

Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today. Which only goes to show that in an emergency, strange things are possible, but who wants that kind of emergency?
 
Maybe I should book a hunt in Colorado and hire Huntsman to be my guide, I will leave my .300 Ultra Mag. behind and bring the kids youth model .22 shooting .22 shorts! After all, I do like a good challenge every once in awhile!
 
Your average compound bow puts out about 100-150 ft/lbs of energy... yet they kill elk just fine... wonder how that happens if "energy kills".

Also... you're average .44 Rem Mag round doesn't even come close to the "energy" a .243 can produce with a 85-100 grain bullet... so why will a .44 go through an elk with aplomb and shooting a bull with a .243 is suddenly akin to Obama's "redistribution of wealth"?

ENERGY DOESN'T KILL... A HOLE IN THE ASPERATION OR HYDRAULIC SYSTEMS DOES. Doesn't matter how it gets there.
 
I have thought long and hard about this thread and really debated in my head if I would even reply with my opinion. Well, I'm here and here goes.

Has anybody here ever heard of WDM Bell?? I will give a small history lesson about Bell.
He was the first white man to hunt elephant in Africa.The caliber he used was 303 brit and 7 Mauser ( 7X57).His findings on shooting elephants still holds true today. He killed an elephant and had the head cut apart to find the brain. The PHs of Africa use to this day the findings of Bell to put a pill in the brain of an elephant from ANY angle. The brain of an elephant is not where it should be, but Bell figgured out where it was for SHOT PLACEMENT.He would walk up to a herd of "tuskers" and stop shooting when the ivory was down. He had to have the elephants DRT, and was very good at it.

A 7 mauser is the balistic cousin of the 7mm-08.

Large magnum/newest boomstick/superdupermagnum will do the job well, I'm not debating that, but a poor shot is a poor shot that may not garantee a clean kill.

I was taught at an early age that you can shoot a 155 howitzer into a cold pile of scat, and said critter will get away everytime.

Now that Ive ranted, to the original question " is a 243win enough for elk?" In my opinion for MYSELF it is.If I was giving advice to you,I would have to say its all up to you. There are SO many varibles in the question like how good of a marksman ( or markswoman ), how far the shot, et all.

I have shot elk, blacktail deer and black bear with a 243 win. and never felt undergunned. I don't use the 243 as much as I use to, but my main big game boomerstick in a 7mm-08.

Since everybody likes to read, pick up any of the WDM Bell books, they are on my top hunting book reads. Peter H Capstic is another great hunting author.

" Wanderings of an elephant hunter " Bell
" Karamojo Safari" Bell
" Death in the Long Grass " Capstic
"Death in Silent Places" Capstic
" The Last Elephant Hunter" Capstic

Sorry to get a little off topic about the 243, but I feel this is good background from where I'm coming from.
John
 
Originally Posted By: quarterboredYour average compound bow puts out about 100-150 ft/lbs of energy... yet they kill elk just fine... wonder how that happens if "energy kills".

Also... you're average .44 Rem Mag round doesn't even come close to the "energy" a .243 can produce with a 85-100 grain bullet... so why will a .44 go through an elk with aplomb and shooting a bull with a .243 is suddenly akin to Obama's "redistribution of wealth"?

ENERGY DOESN'T KILL... A HOLE IN THE ASPERATION OR HYDRAULIC SYSTEMS DOES. Doesn't matter how it gets there.

Ok, the average compound puts out about 60 ft/lbs of energy. Archery equipment does not rely on energy to kill with, it relys on hemorraging (aka blood loss) to kill animals. Comparing the bows and rifles is like comparing banannas and apples, not even close to the same thing.
 
Do you ever wonder if the person who started this trend is amused at all the arguing and I'm sure this question has came up dozens of times on here and ended the same way fact is 243 is legal and killed lots of elk also wounded several I'm sure but so has magnums. By the way here in Indiana there is an elk in a fenced in place down the road, it will get out of that fence one day and probably get hit by a car not my 243 assuming odds. If the 243 is legal than it must be elk worthy.
 
Who cares... Everyone I come accross is a sniper and can match he likes of Carlos Hathcock. If it works for them then fine it's legal right.

Also a arrow kills with that ammount of energy due to the lack of friction, a bullet experience that from expansion. That blade is a hot knife that animal is butter. Also it makes a wound channel much bigger than most rifles produce. Two different games there.
 
Bullets kill by the same means as an arrow... blood loss. Don't kid yourself... bullets don't "knock stuff down"... they kill by putting a hole where it ain't supposed to be, and causing massive blood loss... same as a sharp stick.
 
Common sense has to enter into the equation. Hunters who jerk, flinch, and blink because of their magnums need to gear down. Likewise, marginal calibers, when improperly employed, cause problems in the form of cripples and lost game .

Quote:Arrows kill using kinetic energy. A bow delivers the broadhead using kinetic energy. I have shot several elk with archery equipment. All shots were pass through double lung hits. I think (and I might be wrong) that more kinetic energy only means I would need to walk farther to pick up the arrow.
 
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I have knocked down several elk and had them get back up with a 7 stw.
They are 3 to 4 times the size of a large deer not 2 times. There are plenty of
elk deer and antelope running around up here with arrows sticking out of them.
Bow hunters lose a lot of game, some spend the time and energy to track them
down and some don't. I have one friend that took a 5 point bull at 80 yards,
I often wonder how many hail mary's he threw before stopping one like that.
So I am not kidding myself or anyone else, 3 or 4 thousand foot pounds will
knock an animal off it's feet. But unless you've ever killed elk don't say you
will only take a good clean within range shot. After you spend 3 weeks in the
woods eating bugs out of your beard and living in a log, you're going to take
a shot if it presents itself. If all you have is a 243, good luck hauling a 750-900 lb animal back up the other side of the mountain because he made it
the 75 yards to the top and 600 yards straight down the other side.
Now if
your wealthy and hunt private lands take your 243 as you will usually drive
up and retrieve your dead animal. Of coarse most guides in Montana aren't
going to take you out if all your packin is a 243.
 
Quote:But unless you've ever killed elk don't say you
will only take a good clean within range shot. After you spend 3 weeks in the
woods eating bugs out of your beard and living in a log, you're going to take
a shot if it presents itself. If all you have is a 243, good luck hauling a 750-900 lb animal back up the other side of the mountain because he made it
the 75 yards to the top and 600 yards straight down the other side.


A lot of people have got no clue. I've spent all day packing elk quarters when I killed them right where I wanted to and didn't have to track them several miles through knee-deep snow. You couldn't give me a .243 as an elk rifle. If that's what you're carrying, you ain't hunting with me, either.
These big Roosevelt bulls here are the size of a horse, and it's a real challenge to even get a shot at one. I've got all the handicaps I can tolerate already.
 
Clearly energy does play an important role in dispatching game. It is no secret or mystical formula. There are generally accepted energy recommendations for most game animals. Coyotes 400#, Elk 1500 # and so on. A given .243 bullet(95 gr) may generate 1700# @ 100 yds where a .300 WM(180 gr) will generate 1700 # @ 500 yds.
When inexperienced hunters or others choose to go under the recommended minimums then often game is wounded or lost.
Butchers often kill large animals cattle and pigs with a .22. Serious problems have arisen when others try it incorrectly.
Same with buffalo, most guides or buffalo hunts would laugh you off the place if you showed up with a swift. Not only that but someone could get hurt if the buffalo makes a run after being shot.
Elk are very tough too and people have been hurt by underestimating them, more so many have been lost or ruined.
I truly wonder what these "no need for energy" guys would select for a backwoods grizzly hunt or a Hippo hunt on foot. I know my first choice and it would be a magnum.

From a RMEF elk camp survey the most popular calibers for 09 were and in this order.
.30-06
.300 WM
7MM
.338 WM
.270
.300 WBY MAg

Watching an elk get hit with a high energy '06 or .300 WM is noticeable. The knock down power is good to stop them and insure you get to tag it in the competitive seasons. Good running shoes are important too.
Why are there so many proponents of the .243 claiming so many missed or bad shots by the "Magnum" group. I have shot the .30-06 & .300 WM all my life. The recoil is very tolerable and hardly even noticed when shooting game.
 
i don't get full penetration on mule deer at 300 yards.
why use a caliber that is going to bleed on out rather then knock him off his feet?
I've seen them run off after being hit in the rib cage with a 30-0-6. I've pulled 9 243 slugs out of the ribs of one elk that lived over a year packing them around.
arrows cut massive wound channels but i saw a 6x7 bull that had two broad heads in him one from that year and one from the year before.
why go under gunned when packin elk out of the snags and canyons is hard enough already. yes you might kill it but you have a vary good chance of not killing it for a week or so.
its like getting in a boxing match with both hands tied behind your back.
this is coming from a guy who's favorite rifle IS a 243 but i'll be danged if I'm taking it elk hunting.
use the right rifle for the right game.
i shot my cow 2 times with a 270 this year at 120 yards if I'd have had my 243 I'd have ran the clip out before it was off its feet.
243 is good for white tail and antelope, 270 for mule deer, 300 mag for elk. that is why i have them.
i shot my elk while out coyote hunting or I'd have had the 300 mag I'm shooting coyotes with the 270 because I'm refinishing the stock on my 243.
heck i was under gunned for coyotes with the 17 rem and too fast at close range with the 220 swift. just poked holes in them not drt. that's why i use the 243 on coyotes.
 
This topic is great. I've seen it many times and enjoy it just as much as the first. I've even linked up tables showing that a 105vld out of a 243 at 3050fps carries more velocity and energy than a 270 with a 130 at 700yds.

It was also stated here that no Colorado outfitter would recommend a 243 for elk. Talk to Ray Milligan (Milligan Brand New Mexico) who owns the largest elk outfit in the states. He says he would rather see guys come in with a 243 they can shoot than an ultramag. He also has a video of a cow elk shot by a kid over 500yds away and the 105 penetrated both shoulders.

Anyone that thinks a 243 is too small run some ballistic numbers. You'll be very suprised. And for those worried about runners a high shoulder shot will put them right down.

I'm sure I'm going to get alot of [beeep] for this but look at the facts, not just opinions of keyboard jocky's in the "know"
 
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Wyoming states it is THE MINIMUM CALIBER legal for big game i don't think elk and buffalo were the exact reason for having it there, its a wonderful round for antelope and white tails.
if all you have is your 243 hunt deer and antelope.
I've seen one elk shot with a 243 twice right in the 12 ring and we never found it we followed it 4 miles. i don't care what anyone thinks 243 is not enough.
at 400 yards my son put 5 shots in the ribs of a mule deer and none of them penetrated the rib cage. he finally shot it in the neck at 200 yards.
factual eye witness accounts.
I've shot 1000's of rounds many many deer and antelope and 100's of coyotes with the 243 i love it.
it would be my last choice in elk calibers that is why its the MINIMUM CALIBER FOR BIG GAME not medium as a mule deer or maximum as a elk
 
JB I know what the numbers say, I also know some 350 pound cow is
not what most guys want to go out and shoot. I don't post photos too often
of my game but I really think you need some reality here. The whitetail was
240 lbs. An good sized body but not anything we haven't all killed. The cow
was 660 lbs. A big hammerhead by any standard. The calf was 320 lbs. They
were both dropped where they stood and drug out whole, 2.5 miles downhill
on snow by three guys. Uphill we wouldn't have moved her 200 yards in half
a day. for reference the rafters are ten feet, I am a bit over six.
hunt3.jpg
hunt8-1.jpg
 
cmiddleton, if that elk was really shot twice in the 12 ring and your son put 5 in a muley's side without penetrating the ribcage I wouldn't jump to blaming the cartridge. Sounds like a famous bullet problem to me.

Ok I ran some numbers with everyones favorite 30-06 and the very popular 165 Gameking vs a 243 with a 105vld. At 500yds the 243 has 1155ft/lbs, the 30-06 has 1272ft/lbs. not a whole [beeep] of a difference is there. now the kicker, everyone claims 2000fps is the minimum for a rifle bullet on elk. the 30-06 loses that around 400yds, the 243 still has 2226fps at 500.

May I ask what kind of bullet "wasn't enough for a muley at 400yds"
 


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