204, Cramming of the bullet will somewhat work better if you can crimp the case mouths slightly with reduced loads, otherwise it's very possible to have the same problem as with the .004" crush theory. Primer ignition will still force the case forward resulting in the same case head seperation problems. Some will argue, but IMO, the false shoulder is the preferred method. Kind of a change of subject, but 300 win mag brass is known for having the same head seperation problems as all belted magnum cases. In getting the most case life from these cases, I create a false shoulder with my new brass, fire wet with good old g96, and then only neck size. I have yet to need to trim my 300wm cases after 7 loadings.
25-06 Ackley advice
- Thread starter travjc
- Start date
Originally Posted By: Winny FanIf he's forming the brass in a 25-06 die, he will not have a resulting "false shoulder". He will simply be moving the case shoulder back to the proper position for a crush fit upon chambering the brass. A false shoulder is a portion of the case neck that is larger than the rest of the reduced case neck and causes the brass to stop moving any further forward into the chamber.
If you will click on this link and enlarge the picture in the article, you will readily see a false shoulder on the case neck on the case located second from the left in the picture.
http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html
A good example of a false shoulder is necking 222 Rem Mag brass down a bit at a time to 20 caliber and leaving a .224" false shoulder on the case neck at the correct distance/place to allow for a crush fit when chambering, and then you fire form the 222 Rem Mag brass into 204 Ruger brass when fired in a 204 Ruger rifle. The .224" false shoulder is on the case neck and not on the case shoulder itself.
As for case length, definitely it should be trimmed for the chamber length. 99% of all factory rifle chambers are longer than the "trim to length" + 0.010" you normally see in print for the brass. It's called "lawyer proofing" a factory chamber against high pressure.
Sinclair sells a neat little button to place in the end of a piece of short necked brass to determine actual chamber length on a rifle. They are available in various bore diameters, and they are well worth the money so you can see how your rifle is actually chambered.
Upon re-reading the post, I realized that in fact he is setting the shoulder back by his description. I was thinking necking up then back down for some reason, completely ignoring the 280 brass part.
If you will click on this link and enlarge the picture in the article, you will readily see a false shoulder on the case neck on the case located second from the left in the picture.
http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html
A good example of a false shoulder is necking 222 Rem Mag brass down a bit at a time to 20 caliber and leaving a .224" false shoulder on the case neck at the correct distance/place to allow for a crush fit when chambering, and then you fire form the 222 Rem Mag brass into 204 Ruger brass when fired in a 204 Ruger rifle. The .224" false shoulder is on the case neck and not on the case shoulder itself.
As for case length, definitely it should be trimmed for the chamber length. 99% of all factory rifle chambers are longer than the "trim to length" + 0.010" you normally see in print for the brass. It's called "lawyer proofing" a factory chamber against high pressure.
Sinclair sells a neat little button to place in the end of a piece of short necked brass to determine actual chamber length on a rifle. They are available in various bore diameters, and they are well worth the money so you can see how your rifle is actually chambered.
Upon re-reading the post, I realized that in fact he is setting the shoulder back by his description. I was thinking necking up then back down for some reason, completely ignoring the 280 brass part.
Winny Fan
New member
Cramming bullets is a way to do. It's even mentioned at the link I provided. Notice the caveats attached for cramming bullets. Bullet tension alone is a variable between pieces of brass, and it is one I've seen make the overall results variable from one piece of brass to another.
A false shoulder is a much more reliable and uniform way to do it that requires only a set of dies generally one caliber larger than the case you are forming. Everyone has friends who will surely loan you dies if needed.
A false shoulder is a much more reliable and uniform way to do it that requires only a set of dies generally one caliber larger than the case you are forming. Everyone has friends who will surely loan you dies if needed.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: 204farrmonashee why not just cram your bullets .015 and be done with it .that will let you form fire
That will NOT solve the problem...
That will NOT solve the problem...
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: Monashee
CatShooter, sent you a PM but I'll post it here for comment. I have a good friend who is most experienced with AI chambers. As CatShooter stated I believe I have a deep chamber in my .25-06AI, set back only 4 thou. My friend suggests starting with .280Rem brass which is longer than 06 or 25-06 brass, and bumping back the shoulder in the .25-06 die until I get a crush fit. The case will need trimming as the neck will be too long to chamber, but once trimmed to SAAMI .25-06 length I do get a good crush fit. What say you! Monashee
You might be able to start with 270 or 280 brass (both have the same length spec), but keep in mind that 270 and 280 brass can be as long as 2.575" and be "within spec" (and maybe a bit more, with sloppy inspection)...
A 25-06 chamber can be as short as 2.502" (and maybe a bit shorter if the reamer has been sharpened a dozen times
)
25-06 Brass = 2.494" -0.020"
25-06 Chamber = 2.502" +0.015"
270/280 Brass = 2.540" -0.020"
270/280 Chamber = 2.560" +0.015"
You can make the 25-06 from the longer cases, but you MUST know the total chamber length to the mouth before undertaking this way of doing it.
Sinclair International has a really neat gauge for measuring the chamber length - go here:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage
With it, you know exactly how much room you have to play with, and you can make your cases long, without being too long.
How-some-ever you make the cases, I would recommend that you oil the cases with a light oil on the first firing to prevent stretch at the web - once the case has stretched, that is a weak area waiting to fail. It you start a case off right on the first firing, it can last almost forever.
CatShooter, sent you a PM but I'll post it here for comment. I have a good friend who is most experienced with AI chambers. As CatShooter stated I believe I have a deep chamber in my .25-06AI, set back only 4 thou. My friend suggests starting with .280Rem brass which is longer than 06 or 25-06 brass, and bumping back the shoulder in the .25-06 die until I get a crush fit. The case will need trimming as the neck will be too long to chamber, but once trimmed to SAAMI .25-06 length I do get a good crush fit. What say you! Monashee
You might be able to start with 270 or 280 brass (both have the same length spec), but keep in mind that 270 and 280 brass can be as long as 2.575" and be "within spec" (and maybe a bit more, with sloppy inspection)...
A 25-06 chamber can be as short as 2.502" (and maybe a bit shorter if the reamer has been sharpened a dozen times
25-06 Brass = 2.494" -0.020"
25-06 Chamber = 2.502" +0.015"
270/280 Brass = 2.540" -0.020"
270/280 Chamber = 2.560" +0.015"
You can make the 25-06 from the longer cases, but you MUST know the total chamber length to the mouth before undertaking this way of doing it.
Sinclair International has a really neat gauge for measuring the chamber length - go here:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=32925/Product/Sinclair-Chamber-Length-Gage
With it, you know exactly how much room you have to play with, and you can make your cases long, without being too long.
How-some-ever you make the cases, I would recommend that you oil the cases with a light oil on the first firing to prevent stretch at the web - once the case has stretched, that is a weak area waiting to fail. It you start a case off right on the first firing, it can last almost forever.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: 204farrwhat about The Dreaded Doughnut--Where Does It Come From?
Dunkin's... about 1/4th of a mile east of here - don't get the ones with the sprinkles.
There are NO Dreaded "Doughnut" [sic] with these cases.
.
Dunkin's... about 1/4th of a mile east of here - don't get the ones with the sprinkles.
There are NO Dreaded "Doughnut" [sic] with these cases.
.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: 204farrjust some more info on IMP
This video had badd instructions for making an Ackley chamber - it has been removed by the owner.
This video had badd instructions for making an Ackley chamber - it has been removed by the owner.
JerrySchmitt
New member
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: JerrySchmittOriginally Posted By: AckmanI don't know about 243AI "long". There's not much left on that case to do a long version. That case in the picture looks like an AI only with the reamer pushed in a just a little too far. Like something a home gunsmith might do.....someone who also doesn't bother to stamp the barrel.
There's nothing at all wrong with a 13 twist barrel. Not everybody cares about shooting 105's. Benchresters have been using 14's for years. One of my 243AI's is 13twist. I shoot 70's and they're just godawful accurate.....it's a rockchuck/prairie dog gun. Another one is 9-1/2 twist, same barrel and chamber. It's also very accurate but much fussier about what it likes to shoot.....took a lot longer to get the load dialed in.
My .240 Gibbs is 13 twist. Shoots 70's very fast and unbelievably well. The 6BR is 14 twist......extremely accurate. Both 6-250's are 12 twist - varmint guns - and they're also very accurate.
You missed my point.
Benchrest shooters use a 14 twist for short range BR shooting. 100 & 200 yards. Why build a 28 inch long .243 Ackley to shoot short range when a 6 PPC or 6 BR (or a number of other 6MM) will be more accurate with a quater less powder and three timess the barrel life?
Why build a 28 inch barrel rifle shooting a barrel burning cartridge for short range shooting.
That's all I neant. Nothing more, nothing less.
I have a 6MM BR with a 14 twist for short range prairie dog shooting and I love it. It has a 20 inch long barrel and will take any poor dog that lingers inside 500 yards with it's 65 VMAX @ 3350 FPS. When I move out to 750 yards that 65 VMAX has dropped 22.5 MOA while my 105 from my 8 twist 6mm BR that started at 2850 has only dropped 18.5 MOA and the 105 from my 8 twist .243 AI has dropped 17 MOA. even though at 500 yards their drop was about the same.
Bullet velocity is only useful if it has a purpose. Launching a 105 AMAX at 3000 FPS won't kill a prairie dog any deader than launching a 65 VMAX at 3900 FPS. It just makes hitting them at long range easier.
Shooting prairie dogs at 200 - 300 yards is fun but shooting prairie dogs at 800+ is funner.
Good morning Jerry.
"Shooting prairie dogs at 200 - 300 yards is fun but shooting prairie dogs at 800+ is funner."
Well, it sure is more funner .
But since you are one of the more brighter bulbs in this chandelier - I'll be a pain in the butt and disagree - not about the 800 yd shots on PD's, but on the necessity of very long bullets for very long ranges.
I've been through several stages in the long bullet thing, and I'm now at the stage of "Long bullets may not be the solution" stage.
When I went to SoDak the first time for PDs, there were pretty much no long bullets and fast twists guns, except for the 224 Clarke (a 244 Rem necked down to 22... and once a year, Hornady made a special run of 80 grain 224 bullets for a closed list of customers).
On that trip, I had two 222 mag benchrest rifles, a 22-250, and a 6mm Rem. One of the other guys brought two 222 Rem rifles, and his very newish 224 Clarke and a WW-II 30" Barr and Stroud optical rangefinder. It was in very good condition, and it was the first one I had ever seen - it was Kewl!...
... and there was a third guy with a few 222 type rifles and a 22-250.
Most of the scopes were Unertls, with a few Redding target (3200s or 6400s, I can't remember), and two K-10s
The first two days, we whacked some dogs, but we were mostly making range charts for the calibrated micrometers on our rifles, since none of had ever seen a rangefinder before.
When we got down to the dark and dirty business of slaying poor widdle, cute PD,s we learned a few things.
I learned that if you are fighting a cross wind at long range, no matter what you shoot, you cannot win, and I never forgot it - while a long heavy bullet drifts less, it still drifts way too much to get an accurate estimate for a first shot hit... you still need to "see the drift" (in the form of a puff of dust) and compensate.
And... if you have a range chart and range finder (and now everyone and their grandmother has a laser RangeFinder), then the amount of drop is meaninglessness.
The practical end of it is that the third guy and myself whacked more long range PDs with our 222 class rifles, than the guy with the 224 Carke did, because:
1 - If you know the range and have a "click chart", then the comparative drop between heavy and light bullets is meaningless - it is just a number on the scope dial... you dial 17 and I dial 21 and we both are "dead on" (that was a pun
)
2 - We could see our misses and instantly correct, the guy with the Clarke couldn't get back on the PD in time to see the puffs of dust and correct.
3 - We learned by the third day to completely avoid dealing with the wind - we set up so the wind was at our back or in our face so we always had no side wind.
But the other side of it is, that with those very long/heavy bullets - at the early stage of acceleration, the barrel transit time is ~twice that of a "normal" weight bullet, which means twice the heat transfer and twice the throat erosion.
Add to that, while PDs don't take much killin', woodchucks do, and those long needles at 400+ yards have a habit of zippin' through a 15 pound woodchuck without opening... and the 'chuck makes it back to the hole and bleeds out
So I am at the stage where I don't do fast twist/heavy bullet rifles anymore.
Just a thought...
At my advanced age and declining mental and physical state, I'm going to keep on trucking along the path I have chosen. You raise some extremely valid points but as you well know, there is more than one way to skin a Cat. Among friends and relatives, I'm know as that "Pig Headed Dutchman" a title I wear with pride.
Shooting prairie dogs, unlike rocket surgery, has no right way and wrong way. The job requires two things. 1. Having fun and 2. Killing them rodents. In the off season there are forums on the interwebz to best figure out how to do No. 1&2. Sometimes they turn into plain old No. 2. Sometimes, in an effort to convince people that I'm right and they're wrong, I lose sight of number 1.
I spent the whole day yesterday at the range verifying my new Droid Tablet "Shooter" app and I'm very pleased with it. My shooting buddy is on the way back home and his son, fresh out of the Marine Corp is chomping at the bit to go murder some prairie dogs. June 5th is our target date.
Keep sight of No. 1 and No. 2 will happen.
There's nothing at all wrong with a 13 twist barrel. Not everybody cares about shooting 105's. Benchresters have been using 14's for years. One of my 243AI's is 13twist. I shoot 70's and they're just godawful accurate.....it's a rockchuck/prairie dog gun. Another one is 9-1/2 twist, same barrel and chamber. It's also very accurate but much fussier about what it likes to shoot.....took a lot longer to get the load dialed in.
My .240 Gibbs is 13 twist. Shoots 70's very fast and unbelievably well. The 6BR is 14 twist......extremely accurate. Both 6-250's are 12 twist - varmint guns - and they're also very accurate.
You missed my point.
Benchrest shooters use a 14 twist for short range BR shooting. 100 & 200 yards. Why build a 28 inch long .243 Ackley to shoot short range when a 6 PPC or 6 BR (or a number of other 6MM) will be more accurate with a quater less powder and three timess the barrel life?
Why build a 28 inch barrel rifle shooting a barrel burning cartridge for short range shooting.
That's all I neant. Nothing more, nothing less.
I have a 6MM BR with a 14 twist for short range prairie dog shooting and I love it. It has a 20 inch long barrel and will take any poor dog that lingers inside 500 yards with it's 65 VMAX @ 3350 FPS. When I move out to 750 yards that 65 VMAX has dropped 22.5 MOA while my 105 from my 8 twist 6mm BR that started at 2850 has only dropped 18.5 MOA and the 105 from my 8 twist .243 AI has dropped 17 MOA. even though at 500 yards their drop was about the same.
Bullet velocity is only useful if it has a purpose. Launching a 105 AMAX at 3000 FPS won't kill a prairie dog any deader than launching a 65 VMAX at 3900 FPS. It just makes hitting them at long range easier.
Shooting prairie dogs at 200 - 300 yards is fun but shooting prairie dogs at 800+ is funner.
Good morning Jerry.
"Shooting prairie dogs at 200 - 300 yards is fun but shooting prairie dogs at 800+ is funner."
Well, it sure is more funner .
But since you are one of the more brighter bulbs in this chandelier - I'll be a pain in the butt and disagree - not about the 800 yd shots on PD's, but on the necessity of very long bullets for very long ranges.
I've been through several stages in the long bullet thing, and I'm now at the stage of "Long bullets may not be the solution" stage.
When I went to SoDak the first time for PDs, there were pretty much no long bullets and fast twists guns, except for the 224 Clarke (a 244 Rem necked down to 22... and once a year, Hornady made a special run of 80 grain 224 bullets for a closed list of customers).
On that trip, I had two 222 mag benchrest rifles, a 22-250, and a 6mm Rem. One of the other guys brought two 222 Rem rifles, and his very newish 224 Clarke and a WW-II 30" Barr and Stroud optical rangefinder. It was in very good condition, and it was the first one I had ever seen - it was Kewl!...
... and there was a third guy with a few 222 type rifles and a 22-250.
Most of the scopes were Unertls, with a few Redding target (3200s or 6400s, I can't remember), and two K-10s
The first two days, we whacked some dogs, but we were mostly making range charts for the calibrated micrometers on our rifles, since none of had ever seen a rangefinder before.
When we got down to the dark and dirty business of slaying poor widdle, cute PD,s we learned a few things.
I learned that if you are fighting a cross wind at long range, no matter what you shoot, you cannot win, and I never forgot it - while a long heavy bullet drifts less, it still drifts way too much to get an accurate estimate for a first shot hit... you still need to "see the drift" (in the form of a puff of dust) and compensate.
And... if you have a range chart and range finder (and now everyone and their grandmother has a laser RangeFinder), then the amount of drop is meaninglessness.
The practical end of it is that the third guy and myself whacked more long range PDs with our 222 class rifles, than the guy with the 224 Carke did, because:
1 - If you know the range and have a "click chart", then the comparative drop between heavy and light bullets is meaningless - it is just a number on the scope dial... you dial 17 and I dial 21 and we both are "dead on" (that was a pun
2 - We could see our misses and instantly correct, the guy with the Clarke couldn't get back on the PD in time to see the puffs of dust and correct.
3 - We learned by the third day to completely avoid dealing with the wind - we set up so the wind was at our back or in our face so we always had no side wind.
But the other side of it is, that with those very long/heavy bullets - at the early stage of acceleration, the barrel transit time is ~twice that of a "normal" weight bullet, which means twice the heat transfer and twice the throat erosion.
Add to that, while PDs don't take much killin', woodchucks do, and those long needles at 400+ yards have a habit of zippin' through a 15 pound woodchuck without opening... and the 'chuck makes it back to the hole and bleeds out
So I am at the stage where I don't do fast twist/heavy bullet rifles anymore.
Just a thought...
At my advanced age and declining mental and physical state, I'm going to keep on trucking along the path I have chosen. You raise some extremely valid points but as you well know, there is more than one way to skin a Cat. Among friends and relatives, I'm know as that "Pig Headed Dutchman" a title I wear with pride.
Shooting prairie dogs, unlike rocket surgery, has no right way and wrong way. The job requires two things. 1. Having fun and 2. Killing them rodents. In the off season there are forums on the interwebz to best figure out how to do No. 1&2. Sometimes they turn into plain old No. 2. Sometimes, in an effort to convince people that I'm right and they're wrong, I lose sight of number 1.
I spent the whole day yesterday at the range verifying my new Droid Tablet "Shooter" app and I'm very pleased with it. My shooting buddy is on the way back home and his son, fresh out of the Marine Corp is chomping at the bit to go murder some prairie dogs. June 5th is our target date.
Keep sight of No. 1 and No. 2 will happen.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: JerrySchmitt
"... new Droid Tablet "Shooter" app and I'm very pleased with it... "
That piqued my interest and I looked for it on Google.
I just got a new super droid and I'm bribing my RugRat to teach me how do more than make phone calls.
The little creep talks to his and it takes him everywhere
Let me know how it works.
Quote:
"Keep sight of No. 1 and No. 2 will happen.
Yup
"... new Droid Tablet "Shooter" app and I'm very pleased with it... "
That piqued my interest and I looked for it on Google.
I just got a new super droid and I'm bribing my RugRat to teach me how do more than make phone calls.
The little creep talks to his and it takes him everywhere
Let me know how it works.
Quote:
"Keep sight of No. 1 and No. 2 will happen.
Yup
JerrySchmitt
New member
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: JerrySchmitt
"... new Droid Tablet "Shooter" app and I'm very pleased with it... "
That piqued my interest and I looked for it on Gogle.
I just got a new super droid and I'm bribing my RugRat to teach me how do do more than make phone calls.
The little creep talks to his and it takes him everywhere
Let me know how it works.
Quote:
"Keep sight of No. 1 and No. 2 will happen.
Yup
I've been using it for a few months. I also use Strelok which is a free app but Shooter, developed by Brian Litz and Sean Kennedy, is a bit better and cost $10. Brian has released a new app priced at around $30 but doesnt seem to do much more than Shooter.
http://sean.kndy.net/shooter/
You don't need an Internet connection to use it and I'll still have my paper dope cards just in case it fails in the dog town.
"... new Droid Tablet "Shooter" app and I'm very pleased with it... "
That piqued my interest and I looked for it on Gogle.
I just got a new super droid and I'm bribing my RugRat to teach me how do do more than make phone calls.
The little creep talks to his and it takes him everywhere
Let me know how it works.
Quote:
"Keep sight of No. 1 and No. 2 will happen.
Yup
I've been using it for a few months. I also use Strelok which is a free app but Shooter, developed by Brian Litz and Sean Kennedy, is a bit better and cost $10. Brian has released a new app priced at around $30 but doesnt seem to do much more than Shooter.
http://sean.kndy.net/shooter/
You don't need an Internet connection to use it and I'll still have my paper dope cards just in case it fails in the dog town.
204farr
Active member
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: 204farrmonashee why not just cram your bullets .015 and be done with it .that will let you form fire
That will NOT solve the problem...
neither will making custom false sholder brass
if you don't have the crush you need the only true fix is to set it back
both ways are bandaid
and the more you mess with the sholder the better chance you have of making a doughnut
That will NOT solve the problem...
neither will making custom false sholder brass
if you don't have the crush you need the only true fix is to set it back
both ways are bandaid
and the more you mess with the sholder the better chance you have of making a doughnut
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: 204farrOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: 204farrmonashee why not just cram your bullets .015 and be done with it .that will let you form fire
That will NOT solve the problem...
neither will making custom false sholder brass
if you don't have the crush you need the only true fix is to set it back
both ways are bandaid
and the more you mess with the sholder the better chance you have of making a doughnut
You are wrong on all counts.
Making a false shoulder is an excepted method of correcting or controlling headspace during forming cases, going back 70+ years.
And there is NOTHING discussed in this whole thread that causes donuts.
Where do you get this stuff???
That will NOT solve the problem...
neither will making custom false sholder brass
if you don't have the crush you need the only true fix is to set it back
both ways are bandaid
and the more you mess with the sholder the better chance you have of making a doughnut
You are wrong on all counts.
Making a false shoulder is an excepted method of correcting or controlling headspace during forming cases, going back 70+ years.
And there is NOTHING discussed in this whole thread that causes donuts.
Where do you get this stuff???
204farr
Active member
I would call me opinionated not wrong
example from 6br
( Method 1 -- Load to Jam and Shoot
The first, and simplest, method for forming 6BR Improved brass is to seat a bullet long into the lands, with strong neck tension, and then fire the case with a near full-power load. Make sure the bullet seats firmly in the lands so the case can't move with the firing pin strike. This works best with a .271" necked barrel dedicated to the fire-forming task, but reamed for the final "improved" case profile.
"I've fireformed a lot of brass in a surrogate barrel by seating the bullets long and inserting each cartridge in the bolt, under the Sako style extractor. Some feel that you must expand the necks a bit and then size them down in a Dasher die to get the false shoulder. That is a good idea but I seem to get by without those steps." --Jay (JayIdaho), Benchrest.com.
Another shooter told us: "I've talked to a lot of guys on this subject and you would recognize their names. This is my distillation--most of them think it's OK to fireform by headspacing on the bullet when blowing out 6BR cases into 6 Dasher. But they usually have a separate barrel to do it with because you're just putting that many more rounds down the barrel...." Also, if you fireform with a dedicated no-turn chambered barrel, you don't have to neck-turn until AFTER the brass is fire-formed, and this is quite a bit less work, since you've shortened the neck by half.
Method 2 -- Form a False Shoulder (Zoom Photo)
The second method of forming 6BR Improved brass involves a couple extra steps. First, you expand the neck with a .257 (or 6.5mm) expander mandrel. Next, you re-neck-size the case, but only about half-way down the neck. This creates a false shoulder transitioning from .243 to the larger caliber (see photo). That shoulder anchors the headspace during fire-forming.
Here's how one shooter has achieved good results with Method 2: "Dasher brass seems to be best made from Lapua with a chamber neck of .271". Expand to .257 or .264 using a Lyman M-die or such (I use .257) and size the neck down to about .267 OD using an appropriately sized FL or neck sizer. I use a Redding 6BR S-die with a .267 bushing (same setup for routine resizing). Adjust the die height until the bolt just closes firmly on the neck bulge which acts like a shoulder to control headspace. Fire with a full-house 6BR load to form. So far, I've made at least 250 pieces of brass using the method outlined, lost maybe two in the process. None have had to be bumped despite at least a dozen reloads. All were shot in either a Rem. 700 or Viper action. The Dasher is a truely excellent, stable and efficient design, once the cases are fit to the chamber, none of their dimensions seem to change with subsequent firings!"--Don (ClarkFreese), Benchrest.com.
Note, during the expansion stage, we recommend using a .257 round-nose neck-turner mandrel or a .257" elliptical expander from a Hornady sizing die. These work better than the Redding straight taper expander button or the K&M Expandirion. The expandiron is easy to adjust, but the mandrel has a sharp corner which bumps on entry and exit from the neck.
"I like to create a false shoulder on the lower part of the case neck. This will help blow your brass out to the demensions you are looking for. I also jam the bullet into the lands about .010 for added insurance. With out a shoulder to head space on, I have had some of the rounds not go off. The primer was hit but the case moved ahead just far enough so the round did not go off. You are better off going with as hot a load as the rifle will allow without running into high preasure problems to be sure that the brass blows out as much as possible the first time. With light loads, you will notice a wide range of case lengths after the first firing. I seemed to have had a harder time getting the cases to blow out to a length I would be happy with. Even then some of the cases are still about .025 shorter then maximum allowable with the reamer that was used for my chamber demensions. I am using VV N-550 to blow out my cases, and some others use Varget with good results. I have several wildcats and this one needs a false shoulder and a bullet jammed to get best results."--D.J. of WI, Benchrest.com.
Method 3 ( For tight-neck chambers ) -- Turn Necks to Create a Step
The third method is a shortcut, but it works well if you will be fire-forming the cases in a tight-necked chamber. Basically you measure where the new shoulder should be, then you turn the virgin case neck just to that point. This creates a stepped neck that serves as the false shoulder.
Respected gunsmith Mike Bryant explains: "Since you have a tight necked chamber, I'd turn the necks down the neck just enough to allow a loaded round to chamber. I'm not talking diameter wise, but the length of the turned portion down the neck. Say you would be turning about 1/2 of the neck or so whatever it takes to allow it to chamber. I'd turn for .010" thick necks and more or less make a mini false shoulder by where your neck turning stops. Then seat hard into the lands and fireform. This is what Bill Shehane told me that he does with his cartridge similar to the Dasher and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with the Dasher....Necking up to .257 caliber and then back down to create the fireforming shoulder is the best way and won't get you in any trouble and is the way that I always thought was the best way. It's about the same thing as making brass for a .22 Dasher as with the .22 Dasher you set the fireforming shoulder by necking down the 6 BR to .22. Neck turning part way down the neck is a get-by solution that can work."
Note: Method 3 avoids the expansion step, but if you aren't careful the results may be disappointing. If you turn too far down the neck, the case won't headspace properly and it may be ruined. If you turn too little, the case won't chamber for fire-forming.
Conclusion
We think Method 2 is generally best. It assures a nice, firmly headspaced cartridge, and (unlike method 3), it will work with the "no-turn" chambers that so many shooters prefer. And "the false shoulder is the superior method since it won't allow the case to move forward during the firing pin strike while the long seated bullet is no guarantee." --Don in Redondo, Benchrest.com.)
For more on this subject, read this Benchrest.com thread:
http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html
example from 6br
( Method 1 -- Load to Jam and Shoot
The first, and simplest, method for forming 6BR Improved brass is to seat a bullet long into the lands, with strong neck tension, and then fire the case with a near full-power load. Make sure the bullet seats firmly in the lands so the case can't move with the firing pin strike. This works best with a .271" necked barrel dedicated to the fire-forming task, but reamed for the final "improved" case profile.
"I've fireformed a lot of brass in a surrogate barrel by seating the bullets long and inserting each cartridge in the bolt, under the Sako style extractor. Some feel that you must expand the necks a bit and then size them down in a Dasher die to get the false shoulder. That is a good idea but I seem to get by without those steps." --Jay (JayIdaho), Benchrest.com.
Another shooter told us: "I've talked to a lot of guys on this subject and you would recognize their names. This is my distillation--most of them think it's OK to fireform by headspacing on the bullet when blowing out 6BR cases into 6 Dasher. But they usually have a separate barrel to do it with because you're just putting that many more rounds down the barrel...." Also, if you fireform with a dedicated no-turn chambered barrel, you don't have to neck-turn until AFTER the brass is fire-formed, and this is quite a bit less work, since you've shortened the neck by half.
Method 2 -- Form a False Shoulder (Zoom Photo)
The second method of forming 6BR Improved brass involves a couple extra steps. First, you expand the neck with a .257 (or 6.5mm) expander mandrel. Next, you re-neck-size the case, but only about half-way down the neck. This creates a false shoulder transitioning from .243 to the larger caliber (see photo). That shoulder anchors the headspace during fire-forming.
Here's how one shooter has achieved good results with Method 2: "Dasher brass seems to be best made from Lapua with a chamber neck of .271". Expand to .257 or .264 using a Lyman M-die or such (I use .257) and size the neck down to about .267 OD using an appropriately sized FL or neck sizer. I use a Redding 6BR S-die with a .267 bushing (same setup for routine resizing). Adjust the die height until the bolt just closes firmly on the neck bulge which acts like a shoulder to control headspace. Fire with a full-house 6BR load to form. So far, I've made at least 250 pieces of brass using the method outlined, lost maybe two in the process. None have had to be bumped despite at least a dozen reloads. All were shot in either a Rem. 700 or Viper action. The Dasher is a truely excellent, stable and efficient design, once the cases are fit to the chamber, none of their dimensions seem to change with subsequent firings!"--Don (ClarkFreese), Benchrest.com.
Note, during the expansion stage, we recommend using a .257 round-nose neck-turner mandrel or a .257" elliptical expander from a Hornady sizing die. These work better than the Redding straight taper expander button or the K&M Expandirion. The expandiron is easy to adjust, but the mandrel has a sharp corner which bumps on entry and exit from the neck.
"I like to create a false shoulder on the lower part of the case neck. This will help blow your brass out to the demensions you are looking for. I also jam the bullet into the lands about .010 for added insurance. With out a shoulder to head space on, I have had some of the rounds not go off. The primer was hit but the case moved ahead just far enough so the round did not go off. You are better off going with as hot a load as the rifle will allow without running into high preasure problems to be sure that the brass blows out as much as possible the first time. With light loads, you will notice a wide range of case lengths after the first firing. I seemed to have had a harder time getting the cases to blow out to a length I would be happy with. Even then some of the cases are still about .025 shorter then maximum allowable with the reamer that was used for my chamber demensions. I am using VV N-550 to blow out my cases, and some others use Varget with good results. I have several wildcats and this one needs a false shoulder and a bullet jammed to get best results."--D.J. of WI, Benchrest.com.
Method 3 ( For tight-neck chambers ) -- Turn Necks to Create a Step
The third method is a shortcut, but it works well if you will be fire-forming the cases in a tight-necked chamber. Basically you measure where the new shoulder should be, then you turn the virgin case neck just to that point. This creates a stepped neck that serves as the false shoulder.
Respected gunsmith Mike Bryant explains: "Since you have a tight necked chamber, I'd turn the necks down the neck just enough to allow a loaded round to chamber. I'm not talking diameter wise, but the length of the turned portion down the neck. Say you would be turning about 1/2 of the neck or so whatever it takes to allow it to chamber. I'd turn for .010" thick necks and more or less make a mini false shoulder by where your neck turning stops. Then seat hard into the lands and fireform. This is what Bill Shehane told me that he does with his cartridge similar to the Dasher and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with the Dasher....Necking up to .257 caliber and then back down to create the fireforming shoulder is the best way and won't get you in any trouble and is the way that I always thought was the best way. It's about the same thing as making brass for a .22 Dasher as with the .22 Dasher you set the fireforming shoulder by necking down the 6 BR to .22. Neck turning part way down the neck is a get-by solution that can work."
Note: Method 3 avoids the expansion step, but if you aren't careful the results may be disappointing. If you turn too far down the neck, the case won't headspace properly and it may be ruined. If you turn too little, the case won't chamber for fire-forming.
Conclusion
We think Method 2 is generally best. It assures a nice, firmly headspaced cartridge, and (unlike method 3), it will work with the "no-turn" chambers that so many shooters prefer. And "the false shoulder is the superior method since it won't allow the case to move forward during the firing pin strike while the long seated bullet is no guarantee." --Don in Redondo, Benchrest.com.)
For more on this subject, read this Benchrest.com thread:
http://www.6mmbr.com/6improvedform.html
Last edited:
CatShooter
New member
I love it - go find something that is not related to the discussion to try to save face.
The 6mmBR is not the 25-06.. the 06 has a shallow shoulder and the BR has a sharp shoulder. While Jamming can be used, it is prone to causing case stretch because the primer will force the case (and the jammed bullet) forwards, especially in a case that has a long tapered shoulder - and the case web takes the punishment.
And I missed the part in your copied article about Donuts. Where is that part. Where do your donuts come from???
What amazes me most is how many people want to sound like experts and give recommendations about stuff they have NEVER done and don't understand... and you think that reading some disconnected article somewhere, makes you qualified to give advice?? Ya' gotta love it!!
It's guys like you that kill good threads.
But I will say it was nice to read a post under the name of "204Farr" that had decent grammar and decent spelling for a change, even if you didn't write it...
... you might want to Google some stuff on spelling and grammar.
The 6mmBR is not the 25-06.. the 06 has a shallow shoulder and the BR has a sharp shoulder. While Jamming can be used, it is prone to causing case stretch because the primer will force the case (and the jammed bullet) forwards, especially in a case that has a long tapered shoulder - and the case web takes the punishment.
And I missed the part in your copied article about Donuts. Where is that part. Where do your donuts come from???
What amazes me most is how many people want to sound like experts and give recommendations about stuff they have NEVER done and don't understand... and you think that reading some disconnected article somewhere, makes you qualified to give advice?? Ya' gotta love it!!
It's guys like you that kill good threads.
But I will say it was nice to read a post under the name of "204Farr" that had decent grammar and decent spelling for a change, even if you didn't write it...
... you might want to Google some stuff on spelling and grammar.
Winny Fan
New member
Mr. 204farr.
I posted the link at 6BR that you are now quoting as gospel for one reason: There seemed to be some confusion as to what a false shoulder is and what it looks like.
My posting it was just a way to provide a picture of a false shoulder that I had seen recently and could find quickly in an attempt to explain the concept that I have used for making various kinds of wildcat cartridges, including the 222 Rem Mag to 204 Ruger example I gave you. Never once have I ever considered "jamming bullets" as an alternative.
As for the rest of the article beyond the picture, some of it you can measure it's value by the value of the paper it's written on. Jamming bullets is probably how a person who ran an AI reamer in too far would solve the problem he created for himself. And then he would wonder aloud on the internet as to why he could only reload a piece of brass 2 times before it separated in the web area simply because he didn't know what to do next.
I apologize for adding the link to the mix here, but I wrongly assumed some common sense from others who could only justify "jamming bullets" because they didn't own dies to create a false shoulder with. And they didn't seem to have a good grasp of the false shoulder concept when I posted the picture. I should have recognized the folly of the "no dies" concept to justify the "jamming bullets" concept and let it all pass instead of trying to help you. Geeze!
I posted the link at 6BR that you are now quoting as gospel for one reason: There seemed to be some confusion as to what a false shoulder is and what it looks like.
My posting it was just a way to provide a picture of a false shoulder that I had seen recently and could find quickly in an attempt to explain the concept that I have used for making various kinds of wildcat cartridges, including the 222 Rem Mag to 204 Ruger example I gave you. Never once have I ever considered "jamming bullets" as an alternative.
As for the rest of the article beyond the picture, some of it you can measure it's value by the value of the paper it's written on. Jamming bullets is probably how a person who ran an AI reamer in too far would solve the problem he created for himself. And then he would wonder aloud on the internet as to why he could only reload a piece of brass 2 times before it separated in the web area simply because he didn't know what to do next.
I apologize for adding the link to the mix here, but I wrongly assumed some common sense from others who could only justify "jamming bullets" because they didn't own dies to create a false shoulder with. And they didn't seem to have a good grasp of the false shoulder concept when I posted the picture. I should have recognized the folly of the "no dies" concept to justify the "jamming bullets" concept and let it all pass instead of trying to help you. Geeze!
The smith who originally cut my .25-06AI chamber has offered to set it back the approprite amount(30-40 thou),to gain a crush fit with factory ammo and brass.I have found both to be undersized compared to SAAMI specs.If he was to set it back .030 would that include the .004 that it was originally set back?Also is it possible that doing this is a recipe for disaster and I should be content with forming the false shoulder.I am a terminal cancer patient and would like to pass this rifle on to a friend in good working order! Many Thanks,Monashee
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: MonasheeThe smith who originally cut my .25-06AI chamber has offered to set it back the approprite amount(30-40 thou),to gain a crush fit with factory ammo and brass.I have found both to be undersized compared to SAAMI specs.If he was to set it back .030 would that include the .004 that it was originally set back?Also is it possible that doing this is a recipe for disaster and I should be content with forming the false shoulder.I am a terminal cancer patient and would like to pass this rifle on to a friend in good working order! Many Thanks,Monashee
I hope your terminal situation takes forever to have an effect, and you can wear out that barrel.
Your question opens one of the Pandora's Boxes of internal ballistics.
The measurements in a normal 25-06 chamber allows a range of sizes.
The headspace of the 25-06 cartridge is 2.0526" -0.007". So that means that the headspace of the cartridge can be from 2.0456" to 2.0526".
The chamber headspace is 2.0487" to 2.0587".
So, if you do a little math, you will see that it is possible to have a case that is loose in the chamber to one that is a little snug, and all is fine.
Same with the Ackley... as long as you have sufficant "crush" to hold the case tightly against the shoulder and resist the impulse of the primer, you wil be fine - so if it is 20 or 30, or 40 thou, you will be fine.
It would be nice if the 'smithing community would get their collective act together and come up with some reasonable standards, but it will never happen - there are ;smiths that are engineers and have gauges for everything, and there are pipe fitters that slide by with the least they can get by with, and God forbid you suggest something that might make it necessary to buy some more gauges or reamers.
Ackley chambers should be made and headspaced with a true 40° headspace gauge, and not a standard no-go, hoping for an 0.004" crush, and have half of the owners going through fits to get cases to fit.
But.. Ackley did this stuff some 70-ish years ago, and he did it in a manor that made it as cheap as possible for a 'smith to "get going" in the Ackley business. In those days (like now) there was little money in gunsmithing, and even less in wildcatting, so if smiths had to buy a lot of stuff, the Ackley would have failed. But now (all things considered) gauges are much cheaper as a portion of a smith's income, than they were 70 years ago.
When you read the gunsmithtalk forum, you can hear that attitude expressed when they beetch about the Remington Custom Shop making the crush on the 280 Ackley longer than the suggested Nosler version, because there was not enough neck support on firing... like the Remington custom shop doesn't know what they are doing - Duh???? Gimme a friggin' break!!
Anyway... if he sets it back, and you have a true effort in closing the bolt on a factory case, you are good to go - don't worry about what the exact length is - none of them are the same.
I hope your terminal situation takes forever to have an effect, and you can wear out that barrel.
Your question opens one of the Pandora's Boxes of internal ballistics.
The measurements in a normal 25-06 chamber allows a range of sizes.
The headspace of the 25-06 cartridge is 2.0526" -0.007". So that means that the headspace of the cartridge can be from 2.0456" to 2.0526".
The chamber headspace is 2.0487" to 2.0587".
So, if you do a little math, you will see that it is possible to have a case that is loose in the chamber to one that is a little snug, and all is fine.
Same with the Ackley... as long as you have sufficant "crush" to hold the case tightly against the shoulder and resist the impulse of the primer, you wil be fine - so if it is 20 or 30, or 40 thou, you will be fine.
It would be nice if the 'smithing community would get their collective act together and come up with some reasonable standards, but it will never happen - there are ;smiths that are engineers and have gauges for everything, and there are pipe fitters that slide by with the least they can get by with, and God forbid you suggest something that might make it necessary to buy some more gauges or reamers.
Ackley chambers should be made and headspaced with a true 40° headspace gauge, and not a standard no-go, hoping for an 0.004" crush, and have half of the owners going through fits to get cases to fit.
But.. Ackley did this stuff some 70-ish years ago, and he did it in a manor that made it as cheap as possible for a 'smith to "get going" in the Ackley business. In those days (like now) there was little money in gunsmithing, and even less in wildcatting, so if smiths had to buy a lot of stuff, the Ackley would have failed. But now (all things considered) gauges are much cheaper as a portion of a smith's income, than they were 70 years ago.
When you read the gunsmithtalk forum, you can hear that attitude expressed when they beetch about the Remington Custom Shop making the crush on the 280 Ackley longer than the suggested Nosler version, because there was not enough neck support on firing... like the Remington custom shop doesn't know what they are doing - Duh???? Gimme a friggin' break!!
Anyway... if he sets it back, and you have a true effort in closing the bolt on a factory case, you are good to go - don't worry about what the exact length is - none of them are the same.