3 shot groups vs 5 shot groups

Don't worry about the guys shooting 3 shot groups and bragging. Just worry about your 5 shot groups. If they ever wanna put money on it then take em to the cleaners.

Most of the guys that I know at the range shoot moa with 5-10 shots in their AR platforms.

I do have a buddy who is very happy with shooting a 2" group at 100 yards with his savage .223 model 25. I tried and tried to convince him he could get way better. In fact I showed him with some loads that I did and they were shooting .620 5 shot groups out of his gun. However I was shooting and not him. Well now he is "gung ho" about the loads but the problem now is he wants me to reload his ammo. Should have kept my mouth shut and let him be happy.

"No one likes to be proven wrong even if they are wrong." Dale Carnegie
 
For better or worse, I typically shoot 3 shot groups in my sporters and 5 in my bulls. I don't get too crazy about either result until I can typically shoot 5 total groups of each and see what the cumulative average is. I guess the reason I don't shoot 5 consecutive in my sporters is because the barrels in each are pencil thin and heat up very quickly. I can tell you that both will shoot significantly better when cold & clean (sans fouling shot) versus hot. I tend to do most of my serious load testing in the summer on windless evenings.
 
Originally Posted By: rickybNot trying to high jack this thread but my main concern is with hunting and I guess the first shot would mean the most to me. So with just factory rifle barrels how long would you guys wait when working up loads? I shoot three shots and wait five minutes and shoot three more shots and wait five minutes and on and on. Each three shots represent a different powder amount. Thanks Rick

I wait as long as it takes me to load 5 more in the rifle and repeat until I'm either 1. out of ammo 2. out of time or 3. ready to switch guns. I'll take a break every now and then and leave the bolt open but nothing set in stone. I've not noticed enough of a difference in POI in any hunting rifle I own to care and I can stay at home and stare at a target if I want to or I can go to the range and practice.
 
What are you trying to determine with your groups (seriously)?

If you are trying to get you rifle zeroed, 3 shots will (should) allow you to get to the bulls-eye.

If you are evaluating the precision of the rifle/load (judging groups), neither 3 or 5 are good enough.

Statistically, if you want to be 95% certain that your rifle "shoots" within 25% of the parameters of your group, you will have to fire a minimum of 15 shots.

If want to be 95% sure that your "1/2 moa" rifle really IS a 1/2moa rifle (+/- 20%), you will need a minimum sample size of 24 shots.

Not opinion, plain mathematics.
 
Wow Ricky.

Saying someone is a bad shot is not really bad mouthing. Just stating a fact kind of thoughtlessly. Like saying you cannot hit a fastball. Some can and some just do not have the patience.

I do not think he was really bad mouthing anyone. Maybe just sick of someone saying he can out shoot him but the other guy is not comparing comparable targets. 3 of his friends vs 5 of his.

I have had people like that compare themselves to things that I do. But again. They do not bring something comparable. Just him venting is how I see it.

Come to think of it. It goes back to the golf analogy. The guy I used to hang out with always thought he was a better golfer than I. His score card was always better than mine when we finished a friendly 9 hole course. But when it came time to put money on it and I kept track of his shots and he kept track of mine guess who never lost a round and would have won money if he would have ever paid up?

Originally Posted By: 6724i once had a friend save his 200 yard target to show me,
Well in his defense he did say he "once had a friend," not I had a friend who once.... He just should have put a coma after friend.

Like he said he once had a friend. Betcha he does not go shooting with him anymore.

6724. Just remember no one likes to be proven they are wrong. Best to just swallow it.
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgun3 rounds for a huntin' rifle. 5 minimum for a match rifle..... Agreed! I figure if I missed the first three shots at a coyote having my group open up can only help me!
 
Originally Posted By: yoteaddictOriginally Posted By: 2muchgun3 rounds for a huntin' rifle. 5 minimum for a match rifle..... Agreed! I figure if I missed the first three shots at a coyote having my group open up can only help me!

lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Ricky Bobby6724, you sound like you must be the best shot in the world! I mean, come on, you're bad mouthing a friend by saying he's not a very good shot. You're the kind of guy that can't be told anything without taking offense, so quit waisting everybodys time. Who cares about three shots versus five! Apparently you can't put up good numbers no matter how many times you shoot!


without reading my first post again, i dont recall saying that i am the best shot in the world. i dont think i even implied that. i am not "badmouthing" a friend, just using an anecdote to make a point of how some people view their groups. my friend knows he is not a good shot. that doesnt mean that i am putting him down. he knows as do i that i cant ride a snowmobile for crap. him telling me that doesnt hurt my feelings, i know its true. but seriously dude, where do you get off telling me that i am "the kind of guy that can't be told anything without taking offense, so quit wasting everybodys time", " apparently you can't put up good numbers no matter how many times you shoot!" sounds to me like YOU have taken offense to something in this thread, you have to personally insult me without knowing anything about how i shoot. what is it with people on this site that have to insult others on this site when they dont like the thread? there are a handful here that seem to think if the topic isnt going where they want that they should insult the person writing it.
the thread was started to get people to think about it, and to find out why some people only shoot 3 shot groups. it is clear from the posts that most everyone agrees that 3 shots really doesnt tell the whole story. that was the point i was trying to make. if you feel great shooting a sub-moa 3 shot group good for you, i personally dont count it as a good group unless it is at least 5 shots. some times it is me, i dont shoot as much as i used to. but i took a rifle and load to the range the other day to use as a "check" that rifle in my hands has shot several one hole groups in the past. i once more shot a one hole group with it the other day, just to make sure that the other rifles i was shooting were not showing mediocre accuracy because of me. i did also shoot 4 sub-moa 5 shot groups while doing an ammo test with another rifle. i am NOT concerned about my shooting abilities. i will always want to be a better shot, no matter how good i am shooting at the time.


if you dont like the thread then dont read it or reply
 
First, getting into the personally negative comments does nothing but degrade the thread...If you want to get into that, do it through the PM format to each other, as most of us don't want to read it..

Secondly, there are different points of view, based on totally different objectives for evaluation and purpose...

A hunter really only needs to know where that first, cold bore shot is going to impact and as long as a firearm is producing acceptable accuracy, that can be satisfaction for him/her...

An "action" shooter will need loads that he knows will give reasonable accuracy at various target sizes and distances, as will someone shooting Prairie Dogs where the weapon gets fairly hot..

A reloader that is trying to produce super accurate loads will need several rounds, shot 'cold' and several groups over time and temperature variations to really be able to make a determination...

Personally, I've shot a 50 BMG at almost a mile, using an old car hood as a target...not an easy feat, but with the right optics, not that hard either...

Whether I'm working up loads or trying to build my shooting skills, I prefer to shoot five separate five shot groups, whether cold bore or hot bore, depending on whether I'm going for bragging groups or Prairie Dogs... the purpose will change the nature of the rounds, and method of evaluation...
 
all this 3 shot 5 shot is giving me a headache, thats why i use a can!!! i do lots of shooting, sometimes i brag about 3 shots, sometimes i brag about 10shots... sometimes i don't brag...
a reason to shoot a 3 shot group instead of a 5 shot group is 4$ a round!!!
DSC00160.jpg

these are the first 5 rounds out of the rifle...1st, high right, made adj... 2nd, lil low left, made adj... 3 shot group!!!
DSC00159.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtleFirst, getting into the personally negative comments does nothing but degrade the thread...If you want to get into that, do it through the PM format to each other, as most of us don't want to read it..

Secondly, there are different points of view, based on totally different objectives for evaluation and purpose...

A hunter really only needs to know where that first, cold bore shot is going to impact and as long as a firearm is producing acceptable accuracy, that can be satisfaction for him/her...

An "action" shooter will need loads that he knows will give reasonable accuracy at various target sizes and distances, as will someone shooting Prairie Dogs where the weapon gets fairly hot..

A reloader that is trying to produce super accurate loads will need several rounds, shot 'cold' and several groups over time and temperature variations to really be able to make a determination...

Personally, I've shot a 50 BMG at almost a mile, using an old car hood as a target...not an easy feat, but with the right optics, not that hard either...

Whether I'm working up loads or trying to build my shooting skills, I prefer to shoot five separate five shot groups, whether cold bore or hot bore, depending on whether I'm going for bragging groups or Prairie Dogs... the purpose will change the nature of the rounds, and method of evaluation...

Did you shoot the car hood three times or five??????
 
Well there is the dilema are you hunting or punching paper? When I am working up loads I shoot 3 shot groups out of standard sporter sized barrles, when I start to refine the load as in getting 2 or 3 touching at 100 yrds, I'll then play with seating dimensions or .1 gr powder increases or decreases. when I am satisfied with range results for a load I set a target at 250 yrds and will fire a ten shot group, over a period of time depending on weather conditions. I build hunting loads and Moa @ 250 yrds is what I strive for.
 
Actually shipley, my prev. post was a little hot air (sarcasm?). I have only been reloading / shooting for a couple of years. In that time period I have found a few loads that do shoot that well for a couple of different rifles. I also have a couple of rifles for which my work may never be done.For me at this point it`s about having fun and seeing just how good I can make it work, and I just happen to use 5 rounds.This Spring I need to practice shooting a little farther than 100 yrds. 250-300 yards definately makes a difference. For the most part in my also limited hunting experience, I think most shots at a deer or coyote are going to be less than 200yrds.
For my 30-06 and .243 Win. (deer rifles) five rounds ~1.5" at 100 yrds I considered plenty good.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogThat your varmint rifle skinney? Three shots out of that rig touching is still an 1 1/2 group!!
lol.gif

LOL... thats why you have to put em all in the same hole.


Originally Posted By: NM LeonJust how effective is that can?
its more effective than i ever thought... makes her sound if not better than a 22lr. I do have a vid, just not up yet.
 
Originally Posted By: Stu FarishI'll shoot 3 round groups to check a zero, but 5 rounds if I'm evaluating loads.


THIS!!

5 Rounds will typically eliminate any "luck". If it shoots with 5, it will shoot.
 
Back
Top