40 gr NBT VS 60 gr Vmax out off a 223 for DRT and fur saving under 250 yards?

40's bleed off velocity very, very fast. This means that wind blows them around like a kite.

I shot them at 3800, and at 300 yards coyotes did not go down if not hit perfectly, 40g Nosler ballistic tips in a 26" custom 223, with zero freebore using N133 and cci br4 primers.

60g Has the trajectory of a 45/70. A guy that wants to go 60g in a 223 because of distance, he would be better served with a 22/250 or especially a 243.

This was my experience shooting coyotes that were out in irrigated fields trying to catch gophers that were trying to escape the water. I had a lot of shots from 150-350 yards, my rifle was sighted in at 200.

I found the 40g Nosler and 40g Sierra Hp to be exceptional at close range, past 150 sucked hind tit. You have NO grace shooting 40 grainers if you hit them behind the diaphram at 3600, and waiting for coyotes to stop running, trotting, just does not happen all the time. Shooting at moving coyotes means you have to leade them, and due to trial and error, you will hit them all over the body, including the hip joints.

For those that like warp speed and a slightly tougher bullet, you should try the Sierra 45g spt, which is a high velocity bullet that WILL penetrate bones! I killed a lot of coyotes with the Sierra 45g spt in both the 222 and 223, but the magic started in the 22/250 and 220 Swift with this bullet, usually in the 4000 pfs in the 22/250 and 4200 in the Swift, with AA2700.

When the hides were worth good money, I shot a load that was simply unreal in it's killing power:

55g Winchester soft point
26.0-26.5g of Win 748 with a federal primer
3050 fps

You usually only had a entrance hole, no exit, massive shock, would punch through shoulders, inexpensive bullet.

This same bullet blew coyotes up in a 22/250, massive expansion.
 
The 40s actually hold their own very well at reasonable hunting distances. The 40s drop less, drift less, and bleed velocity less than your 55gr Win SP load. The numbers don't lie.

I've taken several coyotes out to 350 yards without issue with the 40gr Vmax but most of my shots are much closer.

Here's your 55gr Win SP load vs my 40gr Vmax load.

30224068747_f1473f0f17_c.jpg
 
I don't shoot coyotes on the move unless I have a shotgun. If I had my AR with then I would take a few shots....but no, I wait until they stop or stop them before shooting. My shots are always well placed just behind the front shoulder when the dogs are broadside or I pass. I have taken some head on chest shots Once in a while but I normally wait for them to turn. A bad shot is a bad shot no matter what caliber you use and I'm not into spraying ammo to see if I can put a hole somewhere in the animal just to try and drop them. I would assume the 40 gr 223 at 3600 fps is going to have more energy than a 17 rem at 300 plus yards and yotes hit the dirt DRT with the lighter caliber.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DultimatpredatorI would assume the 40 gr 223 at 3600 fps is going to have more energy than a 17 rem at 300 plus yards and yotes hit the dirt DRT with the lighter caliber.

Ehhhh.... Depends largely on the specifics of the .17 Rem. load, of course. Comparing to a 25 Vmax at 4,000, the .223 does have 50 - 60 more ft/lbs of energy at 300. But, not at "plus". Somewhere between 400 and 500, the .17 passes the .223 for energy - comparing the 40 and 25 Vmax, at 3600 and 4000 respectively.

Different bullet, the .17 Rem. may very well have more energy at 300. The .17 caliber load I used for coyotes has more energy than the 40 Vmax at 3650 at 100 yards and the farther from the muzzle you get, the further ahead in energy the .17 is. By 300 yards it has significantly more energy than the 40 Vmax at 3650 fps.

For myself though, anything much beyond 300 is not very relevant to called coyote. Even 300 is an outlier. I am much more interested in terminal performance between 50 and 250. Numbers don't tell the whole story there.

- DAA
 
I use 55 gr softpoints in close brushy areas but they are slow even in my .223.
The difference I find in 40 vs 50 gr bt is the 40 is flat based and the 50 has a boatail.
 
Originally Posted By: tripod3I use 55 gr softpoints in close brushy areas but they are slow even in my .223.
The difference I find in 40 vs 50 gr bt is the 40 is flat based and the 50 has a boatail.
40gr Vmax is boat tail.
 
Originally Posted By: Blackhawk4340 gr Nosler Ballistic tip is a boat-tail bullet.
Didn't know they were, guess Im outdated on that too.
 
byron south recommends 60 grain, says 50 grain is marginal. That is good enough for me. I shoot 55 gr. sp, and it has always worked for me. I would go with the 60's but not as widely available in factory loads. In my mind, 40s are for jack rabbits and prairie dogs.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGThe 40s actually hold their own very well at reasonable hunting distances. The 40s drop less, drift less, and bleed velocity less than your 55gr Win SP load. The numbers don't lie.

I've taken several coyotes out to 350 yards without issue with the 40gr Vmax but most of my shots are much closer.

Here's your 55gr Win SP load vs my 40gr Vmax load.

30224068747_f1473f0f17_c.jpg


jeeez man that is not even close to an apples to apples. 55 gr SP horn is like 7.3 low at 300 if sighted in at 200. 50 gr vmax is like 6 something and 40 was like 4 I think. Just looked it up a couple days ago. The 50 gr vmax beat the 40 for drop, but the 50 was slightly better for wind. The Vmax has a better BC, so comparing it to a SP is not really fair. Lets see the chart for a 55 gr vmax vs a 40 gr vmax.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660jeeez man that is not even close to an apples to apples.I just used the 55gr SP because it was suggested as a good bullet here in this thread seemingy as an alternative to lighter 40gr bullets that drift too much in the wind. The ol' 55gr SP is also gaining in popularity on PM in general.

I only responded to this thread to try to clear up some of the widely believed false information about the 40gr bullets and how they perform. Primarily that they drift too much in the wind vs 55gr or 60gr bullets.

This thread is about 40gr NBT vs 60gr Vmax in 223 Remington so let's compare that. These are near max loads from IMR's load data from a 26" barrel. The 40gr bullets do very well out to reasonable hunting distances. The 40 drifts less in the wind than the 60 even at 500 yards. The numbers don't lie. Drift is exactly the same at 700 yards and the heavier 60gr only beats the 40gr past that. But from 0-500 yards the 40gr wins hands down, especially in drop- it's not even close.

40gr NBT
45237548801_4188d6cc76_c.jpg


60gr Vmax
45237550221_5a9da7d3a4_c.jpg
 
The proof is in the fur on the ground. I personally ran 55gr Vmax's for a long time in my .223 with a lot of success. Something changed and we started getting runners. Looking into it, we found that the Vmax's had a pretty broad range in ACTUAL weight. I can only speculate on why/what changed, but something did. Then we started seeing the same thing with the .204 Vmax's When we switched to the 55gr SP's in the .223 and the 45gr SP's in the .204 we got DRT's again.

The video that Dirty Dog put up shows what that bullet can do. When you are considering a bullet/cartridge change, DO IT! Call them in and see what it does for you. Guys like AWS, Dirty Dog and others put down a lot of fur because they try new and different things and they stick with what works, until it doesn't work anymore then they go and find something that does work again.

There is no magic, golden bullet that will kill on sight, fly true to 2000 yards with no drift/drop, has no recoil and costs $1.298. You have to try and then investigate the results. With the runners that we started getting with Vmax's we noticed that there was little damage in the chest area and that the bullets were not explosively expanding until they got to the gut, hence the reason for the runners. We found that there is a fine balancing point between velocity, bullet design and expansion which is why the data that Dirty Dog puts up is so important. Too slow and they don't expand properly. Too fast and you might start seeing surface splashing like we did.

I am glad to see others who have had success sharing their info as well. We also noticed that certain HP's worked better than other designs. I too, have used the 17 Remington with success using the 25gr HP's on everything from fox to bobcat to coyotes.

I really like what Dirty Dog said about shot placement...so TRUE! There is no DRT with a bad shot. But minute of coyote is about all you need. So splitting hairs with a micrometer might be fun, but it won't really result in more fur down. Grab your ammo and gun and get out there and put lead on fur!

Good luck and good hunting.
 
From what I've read it sounds like I'm going to be a littler faster, right around 3650 fps with my load in a 1/9 twist. So the data you posted is where I'll be at. I'm going to sight my gun in an inch high so I'm zeroed at 200. I know what the 60's will do and am excited to see how the 40's perform. I'm sure they'll be great. I don't plan on using them past 300 yards. At 1" high I can put the crosshairs perfectly center just behind the front shoulder and drop a dog out to 250 yards. I picked up another box of a 100 at SCHEELS today. From what I've read and the videos I've seen the 40 gr NBT DRTs coyotes...with a proper shot placement. The shooters that have had and are having issues with them are do to poor shot placement. I bigger caliber with a faster projectile will compensate for this. I've done marginal shot on coyotes with my 243 and they still drop. That's why shooters change to bigger, heavier projectiles. I hunt solo so there is no competition to start shooting first taking marginal hastey shots because I'm worried I won't shoot the yote first. I don't shoot and spray bullets at running coyotes. I wait for them to stop for a perfect, clear shot or I don't shoot so I have no doubt it will work great. It's called outsmarting the predator.

My 223 load mv is the same as my 243 70 gr NBT load out of my 243(3650fps). I realize it won't hit anywhere as close to hard but the trajectory is almost identical to 300 yards which is normally the max shot I usually take. Sighted .9" high at a 100 yards zeros it at 200, drops -2" at 250 and 5.1" at 300. It will nice to put my crosshairs directly on a yote to 250 and have to adjust for elevation till I get past 275 yards. I probably won't ever get a shot over 250 with. If so that's why I own a 243. I've dropped dogs out to 850 yards with the 6mm 70's in AZ.
 
Last edited:
Dirty Dog, I shoot a 55g Nosler ballistic tip at 3480 in Remington 700's, do a ballistic's chart on that BC and velocity. The 55g at 3480 really gives you a leg up on the 40g nosler at 3600. In 2006, I killed a coy dog that weighed 63 lbs. Would you want a 40g bullet on animals that size?

That old load of the 55g Winchester at 3050 fps was my fur load and the area that I was hunting was 150 yards and under. I killed two does, around 100 yards, and my last antelope buck at 470 yards with that same load. I don't think that you could accomplish those kills on big game with 40g NOslers.

Quartering shots, coyotes coming and going is where the 40's just do not have the mass to penetrate, breaking bones getting to the vitals. If you hit a coyote in the hip with a 40, you may or may not find him.

For close range of 150 and under, I don't think it matters what bullet you shoot as long as you get a good hit in front of the diaphram.

Also, you are going to loose a lot of coyotes if you only take perfect shots, and that idea is lunacy in real world. Just take the best shots you can as a lot of coyotes never stop moving, and no matter what you do, you can't stop them. Many times, I have seen 4-7 coyotes running in, and not one of them ever stopped. If you can hit coyotes moving with a shotgun, you can hit them running with a rifle...just takes practice, so swallow your pride and miss a few....learn how to leade them at the walk, and run. It is difficult for anyone to hit one with the afterburners on running off, but you can at least try! Leade and follow through, don't stop your gun swing,you may get good at it after a while! Hitting one on the walk or slow trot coming in is no big deal.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanDirty Dog, I shoot a 55g Nosler ballistic tip at 3480 in Remington 700's, do a ballistic's chart on that BC and velocity. The 55g at 3480 really gives you a leg up on the 40g nosler at 3600. In 2006, I killed a coy dog that weighed 63 lbs. Would you want a 40g bullet on animals that size?

That old load of the 55g Winchester at 3050 fps was my fur load and the area that I was hunting was 150 yards and under. I killed two does, around 100 yards, and my last antelope buck at 470 yards with that same load. I don't think that you could accomplish those kills on big game with 40g NOslers.

Quartering shots, coyotes coming and going is where the 40's just do not have the mass to penetrate, breaking bones getting to the vitals. If you hit a coyote in the hip with a 40, you may or may not find him.

For close range of 150 and under, I don't think it matters what bullet you shoot as long as you get a good hit in front of the diaphram.

Also, you are going to loose a lot of coyotes if you only take perfect shots, and that idea is lunacy in real world. Just take the best shots you can as a lot of coyotes never stop moving, and no matter what you do, you can't stop them. Many times, I have seen 4-7 coyotes running in, and not one of them ever stopped. If you can hit coyotes moving with a shotgun, you can hit them running with a rifle...just takes practice, so swallow your pride and miss a few....learn how to leade them at the walk, and run. It is difficult for anyone to hit one with the afterburners on running off, but you can at least try! Leade and follow through, don't stop your gun swing,you may get good at it after a while! Hitting one on the walk or slow trot coming in is no big deal.



This is exactly where I am. I used 50 VMaxs for a long time, and still have one gun that loves them..... I killed a lot of dogs with those bullets, but when I stepped up to a bigger bullet at the same speeds, I saw the light.
 
I'm beginning to feel like the luckiest guy in the world.

My little 222 Rem has been busting coyotes for years with a 52 gr HP most are bang flops and a lot of them are facing me. Same with the 40gr NBT in my 22-204, I've been shooting it for about 10 yrs and haven't had a runner with it yet. I will say that I like to hunt thicker cover or set up so my shots are closer. I rarely look for stands that I can see a coyote coming over 200 yards away.

When I did shoot a 223(1966 t0 1990) I used a 50gr Herters Sp's and later 50gr NBT's both over 25gr of 3031. They worked but haven't shot one since the 1990's, Relying on the 222 and 22-204(since 2006)plus experimenting with the 6x45, 6mm-204(both to much gun for pelt hunting so far) and the 22 Savage Highpower(one-off 55gr bullet by Buffalo Arms) and 5.6x50R Mag in combo guns(52gr Speer FB HP). I have shot the 52gr Speer out of my 22-250 for a few coyotes and it has worked well also BUT the numbers are too low to recommend it yet, I need to play with it more.
 
I do believe that hunting preferences, combined with terrain are huge factors. On many, if not most, of my properties, a 500yd , and more, shot is well within the realm of possibility. As such, I like to have the ability, even if most of our shots are within 200yds.
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top