Another Ackley Improved thread
- Thread starter I.O.N.Doyle
- Start date
race4hills
New member
I have two, a M77R Ruger in 257AI and a #1B Ruger in 25-06 and would do it again if I had to do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif They shoot good fireforming and great after. Done properly don't need a false shoulder.
Ackman
New member
Quote:
Yes, make the standard case and fire it in the new chamber. With that said there is more to it. Using the parent (7x57) I neck it up to .358 [you could use .308] – then bring it back down to 7x57 in the standard die without the decapper assembly. My die is set to size the case so I have a snap or crush fit ie creating a (false shoulder). I did until recently load the cheapest bullets I could find for fire forming to make the AI case. After reading some excerpts in PO Ackley’s book as well as an article on 6mmBr.com about using cream of wheat for fire forming I tired it and now use this method exclusively. Instead of cream of wheat I use yellow corn meal & tissue paper. [Form the case as described & prime– load 15.0 grains of unique power – fill with corn meal – add tissue paper – and fire in AI chamber = formed AI case]. If you choose this method you really only need the standard sizing die and not the seater too, unless you want to load for the standard, however I do recommend you neck up the parent case then back down to create the false shoulder for proper headspace.
Yes you will have to buy a set of AI dies for the corresponding caliber. I have my FL AI sizing \ decapping dies set to bump the shoulder back .003”, which allows the action to close very smooth with a chambered AI round.
B..
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
Yes, make the standard case and fire it in the new chamber. With that said there is more to it. Using the parent (7x57) I neck it up to .358 [you could use .308] – then bring it back down to 7x57 in the standard die without the decapper assembly. My die is set to size the case so I have a snap or crush fit ie creating a (false shoulder). I did until recently load the cheapest bullets I could find for fire forming to make the AI case. After reading some excerpts in PO Ackley’s book as well as an article on 6mmBr.com about using cream of wheat for fire forming I tired it and now use this method exclusively. Instead of cream of wheat I use yellow corn meal & tissue paper. [Form the case as described & prime– load 15.0 grains of unique power – fill with corn meal – add tissue paper – and fire in AI chamber = formed AI case]. If you choose this method you really only need the standard sizing die and not the seater too, unless you want to load for the standard, however I do recommend you neck up the parent case then back down to create the false shoulder for proper headspace.
Yes you will have to buy a set of AI dies for the corresponding caliber. I have my FL AI sizing \ decapping dies set to bump the shoulder back .003”, which allows the action to close very smooth with a chambered AI round.
B..
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
IDBob
New member
One thing to keep in mind when your considering re-chambering to any wildcat cartridge is what happens when you want to sell or trade that gun.
Most gun dealers would rather not have one in their racks. They are much harder to move than a standard caliber and your selling or trading value goes way down. Even if accompanied by the loading dies and case forming dies they are a hard sell for a used gun dealer.
I'm not knocking the improved chambering, but that is something you might want to keep in mind.
Most gun dealers would rather not have one in their racks. They are much harder to move than a standard caliber and your selling or trading value goes way down. Even if accompanied by the loading dies and case forming dies they are a hard sell for a used gun dealer.
I'm not knocking the improved chambering, but that is something you might want to keep in mind.
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
Nope – My barrels are NOT factory TC rechamber jobs, all are Shilen match blanks. I explained my steps as warning as all may not be as it seems when going to a wildcat. Ackley explains this very method on page 538 in his book [vol 1]. As for the fireforming with cream of wheat \ corn meal I’m very fond of this…I’m not just firing bullets out the barrel to make the brass, I save the barrel as well as $$$ on bullets.
B..
I.O.N.Doyle
New member
Quote:
One thing to keep in mind when your considering re-chambering to any wildcat cartridge is what happens when you want to sell or trade that gun.
It could come into play but I'll play the odds on this one. I have yet to sell a firearm of any kind. Did trade one base 10/22 for a nicer model one and a player to be named later put that is it to this point.
One thing to keep in mind when your considering re-chambering to any wildcat cartridge is what happens when you want to sell or trade that gun.
It could come into play but I'll play the odds on this one. I have yet to sell a firearm of any kind. Did trade one base 10/22 for a nicer model one and a player to be named later put that is it to this point.
Ackman
New member
Quote:
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
Nope – My barrels are NOT factory TC rechamber jobs, all are Shilen match blanks. I explained my steps as warning as all may not be as it seems when going to a wildcat. Ackley explains this very method on page 538 in his book [vol 1]. As for the fireforming with cream of wheat \ corn meal I’m very fond of this…I’m not just firing bullets out the barrel to make the brass, I save the barrel as well as $$$ on bullets.
B..
What P.O. talks about on p 538 is for something entirely different. The question was about a case where the neck/shoulder had to move forward....like with a Gibbs. I have one of those in 6mm and creating a false shoulder is absoluletely necessary. It's also a complete different situation, just nowhere near the same thing as with an Improved case. First, "Improved" chamberings aren't wildcats. They're meant to work with factory ammunition, that's why they're called "improved." If the chamber is cut properly, headspace is a little snug on a factory-new case at the neck/shoulder junction and there'll be resistance closing the action. There's no need for a false shoulder and it wouldn't fit anyway. If you're necking up from .284 then back down to .284 and actually do have a false shoulder, and it actually fits in the chamber, then your chamber has excess headspace. The reamer was run in too far.
If you think fireforming with cream o wheat or some other filler is gaining something, then you just do. But it doesn't save anything. Anyone who's shot these cartridges very much will tell you that "fireforming" loads with bullets are just as accurate as with formed brass, at the same velocity or very nearly as fast. I can say from my own personal experience forming somewhere around 8000 rds of AI brass that using bullets is quicker and easier and makes a perfect case every time. A separate step using fillers is an unnecessary waste of time and powder.
I'll say it again.....making brass for an Improved cartridge is easy. It's not the same as a wildcat and there's none of the monkey business that can be involved making wildcat brass. I shoot both and "improved" cases are just dead simple.
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
Nope – My barrels are NOT factory TC rechamber jobs, all are Shilen match blanks. I explained my steps as warning as all may not be as it seems when going to a wildcat. Ackley explains this very method on page 538 in his book [vol 1]. As for the fireforming with cream of wheat \ corn meal I’m very fond of this…I’m not just firing bullets out the barrel to make the brass, I save the barrel as well as $$$ on bullets.
B..
What P.O. talks about on p 538 is for something entirely different. The question was about a case where the neck/shoulder had to move forward....like with a Gibbs. I have one of those in 6mm and creating a false shoulder is absoluletely necessary. It's also a complete different situation, just nowhere near the same thing as with an Improved case. First, "Improved" chamberings aren't wildcats. They're meant to work with factory ammunition, that's why they're called "improved." If the chamber is cut properly, headspace is a little snug on a factory-new case at the neck/shoulder junction and there'll be resistance closing the action. There's no need for a false shoulder and it wouldn't fit anyway. If you're necking up from .284 then back down to .284 and actually do have a false shoulder, and it actually fits in the chamber, then your chamber has excess headspace. The reamer was run in too far.
If you think fireforming with cream o wheat or some other filler is gaining something, then you just do. But it doesn't save anything. Anyone who's shot these cartridges very much will tell you that "fireforming" loads with bullets are just as accurate as with formed brass, at the same velocity or very nearly as fast. I can say from my own personal experience forming somewhere around 8000 rds of AI brass that using bullets is quicker and easier and makes a perfect case every time. A separate step using fillers is an unnecessary waste of time and powder.
I'll say it again.....making brass for an Improved cartridge is easy. It's not the same as a wildcat and there's none of the monkey business that can be involved making wildcat brass. I shoot both and "improved" cases are just dead simple.
Ackman
New member
Quote:
One thing to keep in mind when your considering re-chambering to any wildcat cartridge is what happens when you want to sell or trade that gun.
Most gun dealers would rather not have one in their racks. They are much harder to move than a standard caliber and your selling or trading value goes way down. Even if accompanied by the loading dies and case forming dies they are a hard sell for a used gun dealer.
I'm not knocking the improved chambering, but that is something you might want to keep in mind.
I've seen that point made before and it's a silly thing to worry about. It also means the gun is not for you anymore, but rather according to a second-guess about what some hypothetical future person might want. Like repainting a car not according to what you like, but what you think some future buyer might want. With an AI it's a false assumption anyway. True, many people aren't familiar with AI cartridges and have wrong ideas about them...... just reading posts will tell you that. But to people who know Improved cartridges the gun is actually more desireable. I wouldn't sell to a gunshop anyway.
One thing to keep in mind when your considering re-chambering to any wildcat cartridge is what happens when you want to sell or trade that gun.
Most gun dealers would rather not have one in their racks. They are much harder to move than a standard caliber and your selling or trading value goes way down. Even if accompanied by the loading dies and case forming dies they are a hard sell for a used gun dealer.
I'm not knocking the improved chambering, but that is something you might want to keep in mind.
I've seen that point made before and it's a silly thing to worry about. It also means the gun is not for you anymore, but rather according to a second-guess about what some hypothetical future person might want. Like repainting a car not according to what you like, but what you think some future buyer might want. With an AI it's a false assumption anyway. True, many people aren't familiar with AI cartridges and have wrong ideas about them...... just reading posts will tell you that. But to people who know Improved cartridges the gun is actually more desireable. I wouldn't sell to a gunshop anyway.
Quote:
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
Nope – My barrels are NOT factory TC rechamber jobs, all are Shilen match blanks. I explained my steps as warning as all may not be as it seems when going to a wildcat. Ackley explains this very method on page 538 in his book [vol 1]. As for the fireforming with cream of wheat \ corn meal I’m very fond of this…I’m not just firing bullets out the barrel to make the brass, I save the barrel as well as $$$ on bullets.
B..
Some rifles like my 223AI I fireform with a bullet others I may use COW since they may not be used as a varmit rifle and the loads I need to work up are with the Ackley formed brass. I post on acouple other sites and one of them alot use the false shoulder method to form the Ackley case and it has nothing to do with headspace they just like to do it that way.
I like your thinking
Making AI brass is just dead simple. It's about as easy as things can get. Sounds like you had a standard Encore chamber re-cut to Improved. You probably realize that the only reason for all that necking-up/necking-down monkey business is because your chamber has too much headspace.....and that's because it's re-cut on a break open barrel. With a bolt action, none of those steps are necessary. And a separate fireforming step using filler is also completely unnecessary.
Nope – My barrels are NOT factory TC rechamber jobs, all are Shilen match blanks. I explained my steps as warning as all may not be as it seems when going to a wildcat. Ackley explains this very method on page 538 in his book [vol 1]. As for the fireforming with cream of wheat \ corn meal I’m very fond of this…I’m not just firing bullets out the barrel to make the brass, I save the barrel as well as $$$ on bullets.
B..
Some rifles like my 223AI I fireform with a bullet others I may use COW since they may not be used as a varmit rifle and the loads I need to work up are with the Ackley formed brass. I post on acouple other sites and one of them alot use the false shoulder method to form the Ackley case and it has nothing to do with headspace they just like to do it that way.
I like your thinking
Ackman
New member
Some rifles like my 223AI I fireform with a bullet others I may use COW since they may not be used as a varmit rifle and the loads I need to work up are with the Ackley formed brass. I post on acouple other sites and one of them alot use the false shoulder method to form the Ackley case and it has nothing to do with headspace they just like to do it that way.
I like your thinking
--------------------------------------------------------
Actually it's all about headspace. That's the whole point of a false shoulder....to set tension properly for fireforming when the chamber's neck/shoulder is forward of the brass. That's done with wildcats. But an AI chamber has crush on a factory case at the neck/shoulder junction which actually pushes it back a little. Unless things aren't right, there's just no need to use a false shoulder with an AI chamber. The neck/shoulder is already under pressure and the only way there'd even be room for a false shoulder is if the chamber is cut too long and has excess headspace. Without excess headspace, the only way a false shoulder could even fit is to push the shoulder back while necking up......then neck down again to create the false shoulder. If it's necessary to use a false shoulder in an AI, the chamber is cut wrong.
One nice thing about these AI cartridges......find a good accurate fireforming load and the charge will be somewhere between the std. case and a formed case. You already have the starting point and formed brass will use a little more powder, that's it.
People make entirely too much out of this stuff. These cartridges are very simple.
Sure they do the false shoulder to set headspace on a correct Ackley chamber rifle instead of the crush fit method. It's just another way to fireform brass and has nothing to do with excess headspace and if you had a headspace problem you do the false shoulders.
I agree it's alot more work but some people like to do it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html
The author wrote this
CONCLUSIONS
Once the problems with case movement and erratic ignition were worked out, this projectile-less method proved to be very effective, and appears to offer a significant savings in both cost of components and barrel wear during fire-forming.
I agree it's alot more work but some people like to do it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html
The author wrote this
CONCLUSIONS
Once the problems with case movement and erratic ignition were worked out, this projectile-less method proved to be very effective, and appears to offer a significant savings in both cost of components and barrel wear during fire-forming.
Ridge Runner
New member
cool bea's rifles have the cranks on the "right" side!
RR
RR
Ackman
New member
Quote:
Sure they do the false shoulder to set headspace on a correct Ackley chamber rifle instead of the crush fit method. It's just another way to fireform brass and has nothing to do with excess headspace and if you had a headspace problem you do the false shoulders.
I agree it's alot more work but some people like to do it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html
The author wrote this
CONCLUSIONS
Once the problems with case movement and erratic ignition were worked out, this projectile-less method proved to be very effective, and appears to offer a significant savings in both cost of components and barrel wear during fire-forming.
Just like that other poster and his info from Ackley's book, you're taking something from one thing and applying it to something else. That article is about making 260 brass from .243 and avoiding a donut....of course you'll be using different methods. But this thread wasn't about that. Use .243 brass in a 243AI, or 7x57 in a 7x57AI, or etc, and a false shoulder won't do anything. Also it won't fit if headspace is right to begin with. Take any AI rifle and neck a piece of brass up .020" or .040" or whatever you want. Then run it through a die and take the neck back down to where the case chambers properly......there won't be any false shoulder. I could show you that with a dozen different guns.
About the author's conclusions on bullet-less caseforming.....there's nothing "effective" about a round of ammunition that burns powder and a primer but can't be used to shoot anything. It's a complete waste.
Sure they do the false shoulder to set headspace on a correct Ackley chamber rifle instead of the crush fit method. It's just another way to fireform brass and has nothing to do with excess headspace and if you had a headspace problem you do the false shoulders.
I agree it's alot more work but some people like to do it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html
The author wrote this
CONCLUSIONS
Once the problems with case movement and erratic ignition were worked out, this projectile-less method proved to be very effective, and appears to offer a significant savings in both cost of components and barrel wear during fire-forming.
Just like that other poster and his info from Ackley's book, you're taking something from one thing and applying it to something else. That article is about making 260 brass from .243 and avoiding a donut....of course you'll be using different methods. But this thread wasn't about that. Use .243 brass in a 243AI, or 7x57 in a 7x57AI, or etc, and a false shoulder won't do anything. Also it won't fit if headspace is right to begin with. Take any AI rifle and neck a piece of brass up .020" or .040" or whatever you want. Then run it through a die and take the neck back down to where the case chambers properly......there won't be any false shoulder. I could show you that with a dozen different guns.
About the author's conclusions on bullet-less caseforming.....there's nothing "effective" about a round of ammunition that burns powder and a primer but can't be used to shoot anything. It's a complete waste.
Last edited:
Ridge Runner
New member
For AI cartridges, you don't need a false shoulder if you go up in caliber, you need the false shoulder when your moving the shoulder foreward, either that or a bullet seated into the lands to hold the casehead against the boltface until enough pressure builds to form the shoulders and body taper to the chamber walls.
A perfect example of this is the gibbs line, the parent case (270 win 2nd from left) a fully formed 6.5 gibbs (L)
and a necked to crush fit ready for fireforming (3rd from left) on the right is a 270 win and a 6.5 gibbs, you can see the shoulder has been moved foreward, as well as body taper removed and shoulder changed to 40 degrees
RR
A perfect example of this is the gibbs line, the parent case (270 win 2nd from left) a fully formed 6.5 gibbs (L)
and a necked to crush fit ready for fireforming (3rd from left) on the right is a 270 win and a 6.5 gibbs, you can see the shoulder has been moved foreward, as well as body taper removed and shoulder changed to 40 degrees
RR
Ackman
New member
Quote:
For AI cartridges, you don't need a false shoulder if you go up in caliber, you need the false shoulder when your moving the shoulder foreward, either that or a bullet seated into the lands to hold the casehead against the boltface until enough pressure builds to form the shoulders and body taper to the chamber walls.
A perfect example of this is the gibbs line, the parent case (270 win 2nd from left) a fully formed 6.5 gibbs (L)
and a necked to crush fit ready for fireforming (3rd from left) on the right is a 270 win and a 6.5 gibbs, you can see the shoulder has been moved foreward, as well as body taper removed and shoulder changed to 40 degrees
RR
That's right. I have a .240Gibbs and making that brass is a perfect example for the false shoulder, same with a 17AH. Also the Dashers, which I don't have. Doing a false shoulder with an AI cartridge is irrelevant with a properly cut chamber.
***The Gibbs case is completely maxed out and I believe the shoulder is actually 45*.
For AI cartridges, you don't need a false shoulder if you go up in caliber, you need the false shoulder when your moving the shoulder foreward, either that or a bullet seated into the lands to hold the casehead against the boltface until enough pressure builds to form the shoulders and body taper to the chamber walls.
A perfect example of this is the gibbs line, the parent case (270 win 2nd from left) a fully formed 6.5 gibbs (L)
and a necked to crush fit ready for fireforming (3rd from left) on the right is a 270 win and a 6.5 gibbs, you can see the shoulder has been moved foreward, as well as body taper removed and shoulder changed to 40 degrees
RR
That's right. I have a .240Gibbs and making that brass is a perfect example for the false shoulder, same with a 17AH. Also the Dashers, which I don't have. Doing a false shoulder with an AI cartridge is irrelevant with a properly cut chamber.
***The Gibbs case is completely maxed out and I believe the shoulder is actually 45*.
Bayou City Boy
New member
Per his usual...Ackmann is dead nuts right...
If you have a rifle chamber that won't allow for fire forming of factory brass to the AI version in the same caliber, you don't have a properly cut AI chamber.
As he stated, forming AI brass is simple. Anyone who has to do other "things" to get from factory brass to AI brass doesn't have a properly cut AI chamber which has a shorter head space measurement than the factory chamber does..
Set a factory barrel back one thread and then run the AI reamer in to the proper depth and there is absolutely no reason to seat bullets into the lands, use false shoulders, or any other issues that typically apply to wildcat cartridge forming.
Making an AI cartridge from a factory cartridge is simply a pull of the trigger if the AI chamber is cut properly.
-BCB
If you have a rifle chamber that won't allow for fire forming of factory brass to the AI version in the same caliber, you don't have a properly cut AI chamber.
As he stated, forming AI brass is simple. Anyone who has to do other "things" to get from factory brass to AI brass doesn't have a properly cut AI chamber which has a shorter head space measurement than the factory chamber does..
Set a factory barrel back one thread and then run the AI reamer in to the proper depth and there is absolutely no reason to seat bullets into the lands, use false shoulders, or any other issues that typically apply to wildcat cartridge forming.
Making an AI cartridge from a factory cartridge is simply a pull of the trigger if the AI chamber is cut properly.
-BCB
