Another calve killer dead!

I totally understand your points Cal...and I appreciate and respect your input on this matter.

Here in Texas it's just a whole other ball game with the ADC men. The state trappers just keep the snares set year-round where they're allowed in an effort to catch as many as they can. I see dead coyotes all of the time that are thrown beside a ranch road with the cut snare cable still around their necks. I don't think the state guys out here care what's in their stomachs since I've never seen one of these coyotes cut open....they are just killing as many as they can in hopes of ridding the area of any current or future calf/lamb killers. Then there's aerial gunning and M-44's. It's simply a numbers game here in Texas. If you work for the state and you're racking up huge numbers of coyotes, you'll keep your job regardless of whether or not the "calf killers" were killed or not. The thinking is.....if you kill enough coyotes, you're bound to kill a good number of the calf/lamb killers, and that's the strategy they use.

Again, thanks for your input!

Take care,

Rusty
 
You guys ever heard of the "Old Home fill er up and keep on truckin' cafe"? It is located in Pisgah, Iowa. Several years ago, I did a bit of "control" work for a lady near Pisgah who had just lost ten lambs to the coyotes. Her name is Shirley Arickson, just in case you happen to stop at the barber shop in Pisgah and ask where to find her and verify what I did for this sheep lady. I went in with traps, snares and calls. In a period of about three weeks, I killed five wet females and one old dog coyote. They were all taken within one mile of the sheep pen. The only way I knew for sure that I had killed the sheep killers was because the killing stopped. That made the sheep lady happy.
 
"I think that all Chile Rojo was getting at was that since it was being called a calf killer, maybe someone should check and see. In my summertime ADC employment I have found that in order to know if you have killed the right coyote it is necessary to see what that particular coyote was eating."

Killing any coyute is THE RIGHT ONE!!
Last animals to be killed at this farm...They waited for the cow to lay down and give birth, then they killed her and the half unborn calf...
251900.jpg

251902.jpg
 
I lament the points listed as well. You must get the coyotes doing the damage first and foremost, if not "most" the time the killing continues and you look like a fool to the producer. If you tell him that should solve the problem, you better be darn sure it will! Otherwise you name becomes mudd in the local coffee shops in a hurray.
Calf killer sounds better than to just say I went out and called in and killed this coyote! The OG ,mentality at work. I don't care how many are killed at this time of year to be truthful, and there are those that get trapped,snared, called to a lesser degree and aerial gunned that are not the ones doing the killing, but "most" ranchers want dead coyotes the ones doing the killing and any more you can get. Calving and lambing with todays markets and coyotes don't mix, ranchers get uneasy just seeing one or hearing a pair sounding off in a claving pasture, they want them dead.
Do your homework, look at the kill and find the pair that are doing the killing and get them out ASAP, thats the deal the rest is just icing on the cake. I check every female for pup scars/or pups inside, so I know what the population trend is like for that whelping season and ALL coyotes in the Spring/summer get there stomachs checked for content.
I don't have nothing aginst the poster, he did a good deal for the landowner, but don't give him that false security blanket without knowing a high degree if that was one of the responsable coyotes actually doing the killing.
On a side note, some so called coyote killed calves are not that at all, they have been fed on by coyotes or a coyote seen and there natural reaction is to label that coyote a calf killer. Most coyote killed calves I have seen are less than 3 weeks old, and anything bigger in a small minority of true coyote killed. I do what the rancher request if he wants ded coyotes I give him dead coyotes.
You can help your area 1-2 months before whelping and knocking down the coyote numbers right before there getting ready to clean out dens.In sheep areas this helps out alot in January and Febuary on into March of taking down the coyotes, you'll still get some fill in, as good habitat will always have coyotes sifting into it, but helps with the depredation calls.
 
Cal,

I highly respect your skills and experience, but I guess it is way over my head why you would cut him open. Most of us are not experts, so can you please expand on how this has any benefit. If he has calf remains in him, this does nothing to prove he killed the calf, just that he ate some. Right? You yourself said that the killer may or may not even feed on the kill(I read the, "in the Fall" part), so how would this be of any benefit to determining whether he is a calf killer or just a calf eater. Your right that most people don't have a clue. They assume that he is guilty because of his proximaty to the crime and he fit the profile. Unless you witness the killing it's anybody's guess which coyote actually did the killing. Like Rusty said "too many what ifs". Coyotes range, this time of year is tighter than in any other. By killing a coyote pretty close to the crime it would be a high likelyhood that he is guilty. Not 100% but a good assumption of guilt. I'm not defending yothuntr's assumption or speaking for him, just pointing out how he may of come to that assumption. It would take a pretty well trained forensic team and dna samples to determine if in fact that was the guilty coyote. I certainly don't have those skills. Do you? He was found guilty with circumstantial evidence, just like Scott Peterson. I'll bet you a paycheck that the coyote wasn't there to pick daisy's. Would you say that is a pretty good assumption? Not raggin on you Cal, just need some specifics as to how cutting him open helps. Yotehuntr,I assume, isn't through, and never stated he thought he fixed the farmers problem. He simply made some pretty well founded assumptions, as we all do sometimes, and shared them with us. Cal, I understand your frustration with "recreational" hunters, but don't assume that they all don't have a "friggin clue". Many farmers don't have the money to hire a trained profetional such as yourself and rely on guys like yotehuntr to help them out. I can see that when someone post something of this nature that it rubs you and you feel they don't know what they are saying or doing. You seem to feel the need to point out the error of there ways. Cal, I too get frustrated dealing with guys trying to help out and trying to kill coyotes before I get there. For the most part they can realy make it tough on a guy like you to do his job. Just take a breath and be happy for the guy. He did good and the farmer is happy. Yotehuntr may actually even know a thing or two about what he is doing too. I have seen a few recreational hunters that are about as good a coyote hunter as they come. They just picked a more profitable way to make a living.


For what it's worth, I have done the aotopsy out of cuiosity on both coyotes and dead livestock. Most of the time however, there is enough other external evidence that better shows what happened than peeling the hide on a kill. Healthy one day dead the next, Punchure wounds on the neck, coyote tracks, and signs of a stuggle, as well as past experience with the coyotes MO. All pretty good clues. If I had to prepare an airtight case for a judge or jury court case I might want to peel the kill and cut open the coyote belly for a sure conviction. But wait, to cut open his belly he has to be dead/convicted/sentenced /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif . Whether you find calf ramains in his belly is no indication you got the right or wrong one. Just proves he did or did not eat some of the dead calf. Help me out, I now I'm thick. How bout paw prints? Couldn't we get an ink pad and catlog the offenders prints. Then when we get a confirmed kill we can compare prints with known offenders and then put and APB and warant out on him. Kind of silly ain't it. Much easier to just kill them.

I have one place I hunt that is a magnet to coyotes during calving time. They congregate there in unanatural numbers. This make them very bold and the do things they don't ussualy do. They start out just eating the afterbirth and calf droppings then on to actually killing a few calves and cows. The cows they kill are few but hardly a year goes by on the place that they don't kill one or two while calving. I have witnesses coyotes waiting on cows that were calving. They maybe only waiting on the afterbirth, but this makes the cows very nervous. Often times the cows give birth, stand up and in an effort to protect her new baby acidentally steps all over the calf as she is turning watching the circling coyotes. This will sometimes kill or injure the calf and it becomes coyote chow. Did the stereotypical calf killer that we all think of kill this calf. He is not a killer, he just wanted the after birth, the stupid cow killed the calf after all, or did it? When the calves are all a few weeks old the cows don't feel threatened by the coyotes they don't even pay them any attention, but when they are vunerable during calving they are a real threat and the cows understand this. Why is it so hard for people to understand?

Last point. A dead coyote has never killed a calf. Should we try and shoot them all? Have fun trying /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif, but I'll bet you won't come close. After all, isn't this what we do.

I don't have an axe to grind, so I hope I haven't offened anyone /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Cal Taylor, Who said I was finished shooting coyotes at this ranch? I work weekdays like most and hunt when i can I am going back out possibly this weekend I know there are several more in the area, this was one of many i presume I wasnt born yesterday and i do know the job isnt finished!
 
This has been a great discussion and I appreciate everyone's responses. Good stuff! The way I look at it is that my job killin' coyotes, bobcats and fox will end when they put me in the ground! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Take it easy, fellas!

Rusty
 
Hey, I don't care when, where or how a guy kills coyotes. I only spoke to the stated thread title, "Another calve killer dead" I was only asking, if indeed it was?
 
Last edited:
Hey chile, I was doing this rancher a favor he said he had a problem with coyotes, now every coyote Ive seen look pretty much alike here anyways, the farmer wants dead coyotes nothin more nothin less he sure looks like a coyote to me. Maybe he wasnt a calf killer but several coyotes in this area are hes guilty for being in the wrong place at the right time. either way hes not involved now for sure and i have a happy farmer. happy farmer=place to hunt.
 
Fair enough Vic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Who really knows if he was the killer, but I bet, if he was he'll quit now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif.I don't think Yotehuntr ment to rub anyone or beat his chest. He simply stated what he assumed to be the case. Maybe he was right maybe he was wrong /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif. If it ain't the guilty coyote I hope he gets him soon and has fun doing it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Sure been an interesting debate.

Byron
 
Byron thanks for all your suport. I wasnt trying to rub anyone the wrong way. the title of the post seems to have ruffled a few feathers though. I was just helping out a farmer who is having calves taken nightly some arent eaten just killed. thanks again byron and rusty
 
No feathers ruffled here, by anyone involved. I understand that I can't explain in a few sentences what I have spent years trying to learn.
 
Several years ago during the month of june, I took a little drive out to Rawlins, wyoming. It was just a few miles west of Rawlins where that antelope doe tried to stomp me to death while I was blowing fawn distress crys, but then that is another story. I ran in to a trapper out there who told me that he worked for the state, as predator control (ADC) trapper. He told me of a new form that they had to fill out when they were answering a livestock killing complaint. It seems that they had to write in the report that the coyote they killed was in fact the culprit. He also told me that it was too bad that the livestock killers didn't have asign on their back to identify them as sheep or calf killers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I want to hear more about the antelope story, Rich!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can't imagine all of the extra time it would take if our ADC men had to perform autopsies on the coyotes. They already cover large areas in excess 1000 square miles! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif It just wouldn't work out here. They don't get paid near enough as it is.

Thanks again, guys....this has been good!

Rusty
 
Cal,

I would suggest not telling a rancher you have solved his problem unless you have killed the last coyote in the county. They all have the potential to kill a lamb or calf and make you look like a fool. I just tell them I will do my best and kill what I can. Usually after I get after them they loose their boldness (If they don't loose their life first /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif). I've been doing this stuff for a while too and there is always another coyote moving in to the fill the void (Job security I like to call it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif). Some coyotes are worse than others but in my mind, if they are hanging out where cows are calving they are potential "calf killers" and must go. I wouldn't let my kids hang out in a park frequented by sexual predators no more than I would let my calving cattle hang out with known predators. Just don't make good since. I know all the members here don't have your level of expertise in this field, but they are not all a bunch of idiots either. It might be a good idea to cut open the coyote after you kill him, but for me I see no useful purpose unless he swallowed something I wanted to recover. I'm open minded on the subject though and would feel that it would be of great benefit to me and the other members if you could explain the benefits of going through his stomach contents. You could start another thread dedicated to this lesson. This time of year the board is slow and we could use some useful information.

Thanks

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I'm a "recreational coyote hunter" as I don't have a "real-life" & am consumed by them, LOL!

I thought the plural for "mini cows", was calf-suz-zzz's. Kinda like "meese's & mouse's" Please excuse me now. As I've been, confined here recently & have become non-legally insane.

Good discussion, so far.
 
Byron, I thought this was the end of this, but I guess you are just going to keep picking? I never got around to calling anyone an idiot, so you can drop that also. I know there are some very good callers around here and have never said any different. My grind was someone calling a coyote a calf killer, who really didn't know if that particular coyote was or not. He did kill a coyote that a farmer wanted killed anyway, so I commended him for that. Once again, good job yotehuntr. As for depredation, I'm not in Tejas, but here it is pretty specific. Especially, this time of year. I work for a county program, so I'm not limited like the federal guys Rich was talking about. I can snare, trap, and hunt as much as I want, on any coyotes I want. I work in the summer as a denner, and handle trouble calls. The other trapper works there full time, year around. Last year in this one county he killed over 1000 coyotes, documented coyotes, not just wind. That is with M44s, Snares, traps, denning, and the airplane, so its not like anyone is after a specific coyote all the time. But trouble calls are different. Most are in the summer and early fall on lambs because they are feeding pups. Here there is very little depredation in the winter after the lambs are gone, and there is virtually none on cattle any time of the year. Once again, I'm not in Tejas. But anyway, back to the trouble calls, here. When a group of coyotes starts killing it is usually a specific coyote or group of coyotes in an area. Once they start, they will continue to kill until they are killed. If you kill the wrong coyote, the killing continues, if you kill one of a pair, the killing continues or sometimes increases. Every part of that particular family group must be taken. If the pups are more than a few weeks old, and you leave them and one adult coyote there, it will feed those pups. Sometimes you will go in and take a group out near the sheep, if you cut them open and see that they haven't been consuming lamb, you have killed some coyotes, but not the right ones, so you aren't finished. Usually, when they start killing they will do so every day or two, so the coyotes will have some sign of lamb in them. Wool is easy to identify, so is calf hide. So if you don't have the right coyotes you continue on, looking for them until you find them. If you find them, kill them, find evidence that they have been killing, both around the den and in an old one, you probably have the right ones. When they kill a lamb, the majority is consumed and taken back to a den (this time of year, until the pups are quite a bit larger, like Sept.). So now you can move on, because in the time you spend on these ones, you may have another trouble call or two come in, and when you are getting paid to do this, you have to answer to someone (the producers) and they expect results and they expect you to be there until the problem is solved. If you were wrong about the ones you killed, and you leave somewhere, and they kill again that night, you better be prepaired for the a$$ chewing you are about to recieve, so it pays to have it right. Appparently our coyotes are far more territorial than in Tejas, because it usually isn't coyotes running willy nilly here and there and killing with no pattern. I have already typed far more than I intended, and am not going to comment further. I know how things work here with depredation and how to handle it ( apparently anyway, because I keep getting hired back to den every year, and these guys don't tolerate much BS) So if you want to push this further Byron, and tell me again that there is no reason to cut open a coyote in an area where there is killing going on, you will just be argueing with yourself. I'm done with it, and I have no intention of trying to educate anyone any further. We live in different parts of the country and I can't tell you how things work down there any more than you can tell me how they work up here.
 
Cal,

You did not use the word idiot specifically, but you did a pretty good job of insinuating it. What you said was that most don't have a "Friggin" clue. Thats what rubbed me. I have been around some ADC men that fit that same discription. Not saying you don't know what your talking about because you evidently know more than most. I've heard you alude to this fact many times.

I read your post and understand what you are saying and why you cut them open. My point is that you have only proved that the dead coyote ate lamb. He probably killed it too, and should be dead. So now your off to tell the rancher your through. Dandy idea if that is the only coyote eating lamb. Bad idea if it ain't. My point is you can cut open as many as you like with lamb in them but your job ain't through until the killing stops, period. So now tell me again how cutting them open helps you determine how you are through with that particular problem. Here's another wrinkle in the belly evidence. Who's to say the wool or calf hair you find in his belly didn't come from the neighbors dead pile or from some unfortunate still born lamb/calf. Lots of "what ifs". I hope I don't sound like I'm beating a dead horse, I'm just a little foggy on how cutting one open tells you your finished. It does give you some useful information, as to what they ate, but theres no tea leaves in there that tells you he's the only one doing it. Right? Cal, I'm not an argumentative person (usually), but since your the resident expert on this matter I figured you could answer these questions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I think the world of you Cal, and I hope you consider this a friendly debate, and not just beating a dead horse. I'm open minded to what your saying but have some legitamate concerns that the belly contents only gives you a very small amount of information. I would be hesitant to tell a rancher I've solved his problems, because I killed a coyote or coyotes with lamb in its belly. It makes better since to me to take your experience and go in there and kill as many as you can until the killing stops. Another scenario. Say you kill the offending coyotes, who's to say you just didn't open the door for another coyote/coyotes to take their place. Then your problem starts all over again. Coyote problems are rarely completely solved for any extended amount of time. Our coyotes here are very territorial this time of year as well. But when the coyotes in the better areas have been killed they are quickly filled in with replacements.

We can choose to disagree, and thats fine with me, I'm sure lots of people disagree with me. I certainly don't have such an ego that I can't admit that I'm wrong. I'm keeping this alive with hopes that I may actually learn something new. I hope you find time in your schedule next fall where we can get together down here in Texas to whack some coyotes. Your welcome in my camp anytime /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif.

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I was gonna say something, but theres nothing I can Say to defend my friend Yotehuntr that he himself hasn't already. But I can say this...If yotehuntr does get to go after more this weeked, and if he gets ahold of me to go with him I will be there in the bushes with him. But only cause a rancher is having a problem and honestly I think that if Yotehuntr wasn't out there that the Rancher would surely be shooting all he seen. As Yotehuntr said, normally it's fishin time now, but he is, as I myself do, are only hunting coyotes this time of year because someone for whatever reason is allowing us to help them by giving us permission to hunt on thier ranch.. we are only hunting on Ranches, we aint out on public land shooting coyotes that may have pups by our personal choice, Yes I said "personal choice" cause in all actuality I can shoot coyotes year round in California, we choose not to do so during this particular time of year, and wouldn't, if we wasn't asked or allowed to.

Yotehunter, about that if you get ahold of me statement... HINT HINT HINT HINT, LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

t/c223encore.
 
Byron,you tell the rancher if you know to a high degree you have the right coyote or pair or whatever. You can tell by looking at the carcass and area if your dealing with 1,2 or more coyotes. At this time of year it will be either 1 or a pair killing to feed pups, once there weaned. You can tell by tracks, location and what cover there in.
I always answer a complaint with calling first, traps and snares secondly. The plane if the killing continues and I have not a clue from were they are comming and going! You call see if you get the pair. most killing is done by a single pair, not all but a high % of the time. Most paired up coyotes will be within 2 miles of the kill site or less, not all but most! Last spring a rancher called had 4 dead lambs 1 each night for 4 nights, I could presume that this was a pair feeding pups,not a rouge nor a pack just a pair by the light killing,I tracked direction of coyotes there cam in the same way they left another clue that this was a pup feeding deal, kill eat and back to the den, no pissing around. I went out ealry the next morning, picked a call stand 10 mintues later a dead male and wet [beeep], 7 scars meant 7 pups back at the hole. I set up 3 snares and 5 traps, told the landowner of the whole deal and I felt comfortable that this was the pair doing the killing why? They both had lamb meat in there stomachs and were denned up 3/4 mile from the lambing pasture, I told him I would leave the traps for a week and see what happens, notta on more killing a week later I pulled up my traps and he lost nothing the rest of the summer.
The opposite does happen, not all deals go this smooth, but you do it and the more you are out there and looking at kills and sign the better you can predict the outcome. If I wasn't really sure I would have kept my mouth shut and kept killing more coyotes. Once denned up unless pressured or a big shift in food source, most coyotes spend the summer in a small area, so taking out denned up pairs in May and June can mean some quite July's and First parts of August, then the pups get some size and start roaming and learning to kill and mid august to first part of September a few more complaints and the sheep sold off in October.
A good predator control man uses all the tools at his disposal and does his preventative maintance in the areas he has had past problems.
 
Back
Top