Anyone heard of this cartridge???

Totch94

Totch94

New member
How about the .257/7mm STW. Sometimes called a .257 Ferguson Hot Tamale? I have read a lot about this cartridge. It is a wildcat many have built, but James Ferguson in south TX is the most notable. He claims to get 4000 fps from a 100 gr .257???

The following is from an article by Russell Thornberry:


My rifle was zeroed at 350 yards. With a muzzle velocity of 4,060 fps, my 100-grain, all-copper J-36 bullet (manufactured by Lost River Ballistic Technologies Inc.) with a ballistic coefficient of .532, registered as follows:
+ 1.89 inches at 100 yards
+ 3.15 inches at 200 yards
+ 1.78 inches at 300 yards
Dead-on at 350 yards
- 2.58 inches at 400 yards
- 10.27 inches at 500 yards. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Incredibly, the velocity at 500 yards is still in excess of 3,000 fps. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Energy in foot-pounds generated at the muzzle is 3,660, and at 500 yards, it still maintains 2,057 foot-pounds of energy, plenty enough for any whitetail!

This almost sounds too good to be true, but it is interesting food for thought. Anyone ever had one of these or known anything about them? Can it really be loaded this hot without excessive pressures? Sure hate to spend the money only to find out that it was mostly hype. I'm sure this wouldn't be really "fur friendly" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The link to the article is:

http://www.2joutfitters.com/STWrifle.htm
 
Quote:
I refrained from mentioning the specific powder load used in my cartridges because it would be misleading and potentially dangerous as general information. James Ferguson doesn't just build you a rifle and send it to you to develop your own load. He works with each rifle, measuring pressure generated and accuracy.



Sounds like he's deliberately pushing it out to the very limits just so he can say he hit 4000 fps. I hope he's doing his load developement on warm day.
 
with that capacity why shoot a 100 gr bullet? my 7mm Allen mag will drive a 160 at 3700 if I push the limits but its not needed, I can kill deer just as well at 800 yds with the 160 at 3500.
when your in the long range game, hi BC will outrun velocity every time.
RR
 
I agree with both of your posts. I have the urge for a super high performance long range caliber. Something like this or an Allen Mag. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifMaybe a Lazaroni or Jarrett. Why do you need this you may ask? I don't, but I have long ago realized that need has nothing to do with purchasing guns, want is what you should work from. What are your recommendations???
 
Yes!!

My hunt last week in Mexico was on his co-managed property in Nuevo Laredo. Rancho La Palma to be exact. Had the pleasure this year to see a couple of his builds in action as his son Jimmy Ferguson had a couple at the ranch.

All I can say is "OH My GOD"!! These guns are devestating. Mr Ferguson is not only a perfectionist when it comes to his builds but he is one Wonderful person to boot. They had several of his builds on hand for clients to check out and hunt with.
This was my second year hunting with 2J and have already put in for next year. The Fergusons are Top-Notch in my book and there weapons are to die for.

Thornberry was at the ranch last year filming and was trying to get Captain Hook on film.(You see him in my Avatar). He did not show up untill the following week when I put a round in his power-plant. Several hunts from this property are now being broadcast occasionaly on the major outdoor channels. These include R. Thornberry and the folks from Xcalliber in Canada. Some include his guns in the footage.

James and his son Jimmy as well as Abraham Garcia III can give you the low-down on any questions you might have. Get ready to talk a while though as they have no problem with talking about guns. Here is my son Vaughan with Mr. Garcia. This was taken last week at Rancho La Palma.


Garcia.jpg



Most folks who do a hunt with them elect to try one of there weapons instead of going through the hassle of bringing there own. Several of the guys I hunted with have left with the intention of having a Ferguson build done in the near future. One was already having one built and came down just to see one in action. Having many evenings to chat with Jimmy about these weapons and the game they have taken (including a recent trip to South Africa) Its hard not to be impressed with the results. As Jimmy explained it, it's not the calliber or bullet size that makes these so devestating, its the extreme velocities that there driven. Only a handfull of bullets can hold up to this punishment. Having taken everything from Grizzly to African dangerous game with the round, Jimmy seem's to think there are few rivals. I tend to believe him. I saw the results of several kills on video while there, and the Impact's were incredible.

Great Guns and Awesome Folks, what a combination. They are curently building a new facility in Nuevo Laredo for there clients to stay at. This includes trap outside your door and a huge heated pool all atop of a scenic hill-top vista. My son and I cant wait to return. Who Know's, maybe I'll have enought to buy a Ferguson saved up when we get there! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sunset over La Palma;

RLAPALMA.jpg



Dave
 
Is this one of those catridges that by the time you get a load developed the barrel is burned out?

I was looking up specs after you mentioned this cartridge...seems awefully hot as far as velocity...like a barrel burner.

I think that after there is more development in barrels where they are made to withstand these types of velocities there will be a major evolution in rifles so that all will shoot at these and higher velocities.

This kind of energy reminds me of a short range mule deer kill with my 300WinMag using a 190 grain bullet at under 40 yards......"Christmas is carnage!"....bloody mess.
 
how far you planning on shooting?a regular 7mag or 264 will get you out alot farther than most folks think. If it were me and I shot right handed I'd opt for a rem 700 senduro II in 264 win mag, then when the throats burnt out rechamber to a 6.5 allen or a 6.5/300 weatherby. the large small caliber cases last about 800 rounds, accuracy starts to go at 500 if you don't push the limits.
You could probably get a lil more life shooting heavy for caliber high BC bullets and ultra slow ball powders, I like WC872, shoots good and its 5 bucks a pound, but its temp sensative. I have a 7 STW and its badly overbore, don't think I'd choke that case down farther unless I was gonna shoot the heaviest bullet I could find (IE 154 gr wildcat) then you'd need a faster twist, and ya might as well go 257 Allen, shorter overall case more powder capacity, so you wouldn't be taking up as much case capacity with the bullet.
RR
 
Ridge,

How does the Allen stack up to the ballistics of the hot tamale? Probably won't shoot near as far as the rifle can, but just looking for something to play with.
 
totch, here is a post made by kirby allen, he used to shoot the hot tamale called a 257 stw back then, till he thought up his allen mag
The very first of my Allen Magnums was the 257 Allen Mag. This round was designed as a step up in performance from the current kind of the hill in 25 cal magnum rounds which is the 257 STW that you were looking at.

To top what the STW would produce I used the 338 RUM case necked down to 257 and fireformed with less body taper and a sharper shoulder. The new case design offered roughly 3 grains more capacity then what the longer 25-300 RUM wildcat would offer but allowed a much shorter over all length to be used or allowed VERY heavy 25 cal bullets to be used with no worries about magazing length limits.

After building the first test rifle I had the opportunity to test the 257 STW head to head against my 257 Allen Magnum. Both with 30" barreled rifles designed for open country big game hunting.

I orderd some 130 gr Bonded Core FBHP bullets from Richard Graves, owner of Wildcat Bullets in Alberta Canada and had been using them in my personal 257 STW loaded to 3450 fps with top loads.

My 257 Allen Mag would drive these bullets in same length Lilja barrels to a legit 3650 fps.

Comparing lighter weight bullets which I personally feel is simply playing with either of these rounds with any bullet under 120 gr but I tested some 100 gr Ballistic Tips as well.

The STW ripped them out at 3975 fps with top loads while my 257 Allen Mag topped out in the 4080 fps range. Obviously with the smaller bullets my much larger Allen Mag has less of an advantage then with heavy bullets which I was about to find out in dramatic fashion.

Richard Graves made me some custom 156 gr ULD RBBT bullets designed for big game hunting and I loaded them up in both rifles. The STW just broke 3100 fps with this huge bullet while my 257 Allen Magnum comfortably hit 3300 fps and by pushing her hard you could top the 3350 fps level pretty easily.
RR
 
RR,

What can you tell me about Kirby's rifles? Is it possible to get this round in any other rifle? How expensive is it to have him build one? What about dies, brass, etc. I really appreciate your input on this subject. This is what I love about PM, you can always find someone with firsthand knowledge of a subject.
 
Totch, u need to head over to longrangehunting.com to speak to Kirby yourself. He hangs out there, and is 1 of the go-to gunsmiths there (his handle's Fiftydriver). He built a buddy of mine's 7mm Dakota XP-100 handgun shooting the 200 gr. .8+ BC Wildcat bullet at 2700 fps. This combination will beat a 300 Win. Magnum factory load shooting the 180 Accubond right out of the barrel for windage, and beyond 300 or so for energy. There's more info there than u'll wanna read about the "Allen Mag.'s."
 
I have kirby's new price list but you really need to talk to him, his knoledge is completely unbelievable. and his rifles are top notch, my first LR group from my 7mm Allen was fired off a bipod, at 660 yds, it measured 1 7/8's"
So register on LRH, you spend alot of money once your hooked, but its the most fun you can have legally with your clothes on.
If you want what lil info I have you can email me Here's a pic of my kirby built 7mm Allen Mag (the doe pictured was taken at 532 yds)
100_0279.jpg

RR
 
sscoyote,

Thanks for the info, Just what my wife will want to hear, another web forum that I can get hooked on! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Not sure where the mistake was made, but I think I was supposed to be born a rich kid to pay for all of my hobbies! Somehow, I didn't win the sperm pool lottery. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
RR,

That is a beautiful rifle. I have a feeling that you are going to cost me some serious $$$! Might not want to let my wife know you turned me on to Kirby.

How is the recoil in the 7mm? What is the weight? What do your ballistics/load look like with it?
 
recoil is almost none, weight is 15.5 pounds
160 accubond (bc of .531) at 3500 fps sighted dead on at 300 needs 5.5 MOA to be dead on at 600 yds and 16.5 moa to make 1K.
When I need to stretch the range beyond 1K, I'll shoot 200 gr wildcats at 3300 fps, these bullets shoot well, they've done .8" groups at 300 yds in this rifle during testing. imagine a 200 gr bullet with a BC of .9 at 3300 fps, we're talking serious long range horsepower.
RR
 
Performance wise, sounds a lot like my .257 B&B Magnum. It pushes 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tips out of the muzzle at 4,020 FPS, with 74gr of IMR-4831, in a Win. case. The .257 B&B Magnum is base off a 300 Win. Mag case, blown out to only a .010" body taper, a 55 degree shoulder angle, and a short .190" neck length. We've been shooting that case since the summer of 1986. Loading data was worked up in the summer months. The .257 B&B Mag shot so good, 1/4" groups out of my varmint and sub 1/4" groups out of my 1K yard target rifle, we decided to expand our B&B Mag line and add a .270 B&B Mag. Same case just necked up to .277 cal. During load data test we hit 3,863 FPS with 130gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. But that was during load developement, with 84gr of IMR7828, and not an accuracy load. The accuracy loads in our .270 B&B Mag with 130gr Nosler Ball-Tips is between 81-82gr of IMR 7828 or around 86gr (+/- 1gr) of Vihtavouhri N170.

Many, Many groundhgs have been vaporized by my .257 B&B Mag varmint rig, as well quite a few deer down in soybean/corn fileds of eastern NC. The furthest shot I have made so far on a deer has been 1,056yds laser range finder and paced off verified. Many groundhogs have been killed further that.

Looking at this spring and summer working up additional loading data with some of the newer powders that have come out in the last 4-6 years. I really like what I've seen and read about in a few of these new slower burning powders like Accurate 8700, H1000, Retumbo, and maybe Ramshot Magnum.

BTW, a buddy of mine is shooting a Rem. M700 CDL in 7mm RUM. He is shooting 150gr AccuBonds, with 114gr of Accurate 8700, and getting 3,617 FPS. He is shooting it single shot, as he is seating the bullets as far out as he can to within about .010" of the lands, which make the rounds too long to fit into the magazine. He is decent accuracy approximately 1" groups, some slightly better, some slightly worse. On our 800yd range, with a 3" high 100yd zero, he is .5" hi at 500yds and 4+" low at 600yds. That is actual shooting to verify trajectory not a ballistic program. It shoots flatter than my ballistic program said it should.

But the qaurter bores are my favorite.
 
RR

Which weight of rifle is that pictured with the doe above?

And BTW, Thank you for sending the pricing info, it looks very reasonable for he quality of the work that is described. I have a feeling that I will be owning one in the future after a little more research.
 
Didn't Layne Simpson develop the 7 STW and try a .257 STW several years ago?

257 seems like barrel burners for sure.

A couple of buddies shoot 7 STW and they are hell on deer with 140 gr. bullets.

Clayman
 
Totch94, If you're concerned about the cost, it's not a game for you.

Getting the rifle, brass, dies, etc. is only the beginning. You can put an amount equal to what all that cost in big eyes and a suitable range finder, your scope has to be the very best, even a good tripod(s) for the big eyes etc, can cost hundreds. And you won't have fired a shot yet.

Long range is a fascinating game, but can get very expensive.
 
10-4 Leon,

Unfortunately, that seems to be the fact with most everything I get involved in lately! Only problem is that I have to limit myself to one obsession at a time. Right now I am having a Dtech built and getting into the black gun thing, but the Allen Mags sure do sound good. Damn, I would have been a good rich kid!
 
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