Are the Weatherby Magnums worth the extra money?

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Weatherby Mags also get their velocities from larger case capacities. The 257 holds more powder than the 25-06. An AI would be a more fair comparison.



You've got me there, but I wasn't really concerned about a couple hundred FPS....it's inconsequential

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Which is more accurate, the 257 or the 25-06 totally depends on the rifle. There are plenty of accurate non-freebore and freebore Wbys out there.
How well the chamber is cut TOTALLY determines how much the freebore will or will not hinder accuracy.



Wow..how to argue with statements like that?
All else being equal, no .257 can hold a candle to the inherently accurate */06 case. I'm not even going to ask how a well-cut chamber can make a bullet traveling at 3000+ FPS, slamming into the rifling leades accurate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Freebore WILL and DOES hinder accuracy. There are no "if's" or "but's" about it.



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Freeebore is nothing more of a way of reducing premature throat erosion gaining some velocity in the process......



LOL, now that one made me chuckle. What freebore actually is, and what Weatherby designed it for, was a means to achieve more velocity that was impossible in a conventionally-chambered rifle, thus creating a "gimmick" that would sell rifles and make them worth the premium price he charged for them. The "prestigious Weatherby" was born.

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The biggest problem with the frrebored Mk V's is that there is the chance of the chamber being slightly off and the freebore will only magnify this effect. Whereas, a standard chamber, seated to lands, will help reduce the effects of accuracy loss.



That is no more of a problem than it is with any chamber being cut out of center. A mis-aligned chamber is horrible no matter what rifle it's in.

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The other problem the Weatherby Mk V's have is that they incorporate 9 locking lugs.......'nuff said



Further proof that Weatherby was looking for features to sell rifles, not performance. The short bolt-lift does nothing to enhance performance. Neither does having 9 locking lugs. But it sure does look like a piece of work though...lol


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While I don't find them as inaccurate as you do, I'd say a lot of the MkV's will stick to around the 1.5" accuracy guarantee, or maybe slightly larger.



Weatherby's "guarantee" is relatively new. They had to improve the accuracy because it was horrible compared to any other production rifle being manufactured. It's also for 3 shots, not five....let alone 10 groups of five, and it's not an MOA guarantee. It's only 3 shots within 1.5" @ 100yds. If a rifle maker cant produce a rifle, with today's technology, that can land 3 bullets within 1.5", even with freebore, they'd be truly pathetic.

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Double-radiused shoulders, by the way, were designed to give a more efficient flow of gases .......



Yep, and Weatherby's the only one that uses them because there's so much powder in a Wby case that it can't burn in a conventionally designed case. That's why Roy put a belt on them as well...because you can't use the shoulder for headspacing.

Either way, I can guarantee ther are plenty of 257's out there that will shoot as well as any 25-06, as I know many who own them........



Well...you lost me with that one...lol
You should be more careful what you guarantee.
Many, many benchrest matches have been shot with the 25/06. I've never once heard of any Wby shooting in BR competition.
I'm sure there have been one or two, but I bet they didn't win... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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I've been around rifles for many, many years and I've yet to see any weatherby(except the econo-models with standard chamberings) rifle shoot under 2MOA, with most shooting around 3+MOA






I have two (.257 mag and a .30-378) and my dad has three (.270 mag, .300 mag, and .240 mag). Although you absolutely have no reason to believe me......I can assure you that they will all shoot under 2 MOA. If they didn't, we wouldn't have them.
 
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Since you start off with zero freebore, you get great barrel life out of this round as a hunting round. I have 237 rounds through my barrel now and the leade has grown about .035 in the Pac Nor 3 groove Super match barrel.



So...you call it a great feat to gain 300FPS by burning 30-40% more powder, and burning up a barrel in 1000 rds?

I guess so....in that case, carry on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
There's one more issue here that has not been addressed. The premise that anyone who uses a Weatherby is doing it soley for the sake of his ego is pure horse$&*! Is it so difficult to believe that some of us just like to try as many rifle/cartridge combos as possible...and, you know, Weatherby does make rifles. Is it also beyond the realm of possibility that at least a few of those people who purchased Weatherby rifles actually got good, dependable, accurate rifles?

Painting with such a broad brush as the fellow did above is absurd. I have a 340 Wby that will print within an inch. And if my hard-kicking 340 can break an inch, milder Weatherby cartridges such as the 7mm, 270, 257 etc., can do so as well. Surely a few rifles leave the Weatherby factory that can shoot better than 2 - 4" groups. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

With that said, I have never touted Weatherby rifles as the be all end all of anything. However, to pretty much say that no accurate MK V's leave the factory is nonsense.

Landrum
 
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With that said, I have never touted Weatherby rifles as the be all end all of anything. However, to pretty much say that no accurate MK V's leave the factory is nonsense.

Landrum



No doubt!
 
hickerx2 - You say......


Some other "facts":

The Wby case design sucks for accuracy. They're horribly inefficient and are virtually unheard of in any competitive forum.

There is no realistic benefit whatsoever to custom-chamber a barrel in any Wby Mag. With freebore removed, the only gain is a higher powder cost. They can't burn all the powder they hold(in a standardized chamber)....fact

And BTW...I've been handloading for over 30 yrs. I've also loaded for every single Wby cartridge made, yep...even the .460 and many Wby-based wildcats. I was loading .30/.378 rounds years before it was ever standardized.

From a purely performance angle.....show me how "wrong" I am about it.




BTW - You're talking nonsense. And that latest gem about 30-40% more powder.....where do you come up with stuff like that? In 30yrs there're lots of things you never learned. Right now you've no idea what you're talking about. And after making really foolish statements that are just plain wrong, you keep trying to justify them.
 
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BTW - You're talking nonsense. And that latest gem about 30-40% more powder.....where do you come up with stuff like that? In 30yrs there're lots of things you never learned. Right now you've no idea what you're talking about. And after making really foolish statements that are just plain wrong, you keep trying to justify them.



Where do I get it from?
How about any reloading manual in existence.....Here's one load from the Hogdon manual, using H4350...a very common powder in the middle of the burn rates.

.257 WBY
100 GR. SPR SPBT 100 H4350 .257" 3.200" 59.0 3312 44,900 CUP 63.0 3500 52,400 CUP

vs. 25/06
100 GR. NOS PART 100 H4350 .257" 3.200" 47.0 3038 47,800 CUP 50.0 3155 51,500 CUP

257- 63gr h4350 = 3500fps
25/06- 50gr h4350 = 3155fps

Not good at math? That's 27% more powder for a velocity increase of under 10%

I'd list more for ya but there's too many examples and you apparently refuse to see facts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

But hey....burn as much powder as you like and pretend your weatherby magnums are benchrest accurate. I'll stick to the facts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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With that said, I have never touted Weatherby rifles as the be all end all of anything. However, to pretty much say that no accurate MK V's leave the factory is nonsense.

Landrum



No, it's not nonsense....
Let me explain. First, I apologize that I wasn't more clear when I made that statement. I don't consider a rifle "accurate" because it can print a 1" group. IMO, an "accurate" rifle is one that can print well below 1MOA over it's lifetime. That's thousands of rounds landing in well under 1".

It's my fault for not clarifying that, and I apologize.
Is 1" accurate enough? Certainly it is for most applications. More than enough for hunting. My intention was to have a technical discussion about cartridge design and I mistakenly struck that conversation with fellows that are more hunters than shooters. BTW, that's no sort of insult to anybody.

I own a bunch of rifles that shoot about 1MOA. I don't consider them to be "accurate" rifles but they're hunting rifles and they do everything that's asked of them.

I didn't want my comments to offend anybody, and I didn't mean to say that your weatherby rifles are junk. I was merely stating that technically, the Wby magnums are only hunting cartridges and they can't match most conventional cartridges in efficiency and accuracy potential.

In my world, a few 3 or 5 shot groups are worthless for gleaning useful information about the accuracy potential of a rifle. I also know that on the internet, every gun is a sub-MOA shooter. Again, no insult to anybody, I just picked the wrong forum. BTW, I own 3 Weatherby rifles myself. I own a .224, a .240, and a 7mm. I got them all for a song, and I collect rifles. None of them will shoot any load consistently under 2MOA. I've owned them all for quite some time and I've never really worked with them seriously, so maybe they could be helped a bit but I doubt by much. They sit in one of my safes and will belong to my son some day.

I hunt a lot of deer and predators. My best friend and hunting partner shoots a 70's vintage MKV in .257 almost exclusively. He's killed alot of game with it. That doesn't make it an "accurate" rifle, and who am I to tell him he can't hunt with a club... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I don't think that anyone is arguing that Weatherby makes the most accurate rifles around. I took exception to the "ego boost" and "I've yet to see any weatherby(except the econo-models with standard chamberings) rifle shoot under 2MOA, with most shooting around 3+MOA" comments. I have seen Weatherby rifles that will shoot better than that time after time after time.

In your last post you clarified what you meant but there is a huge leap from 3+MOA to, for example, .400 or, as you stated, well under 1".

Now, my experience with Weatherby rifles that I have owned is relatively narrow: 243 Vanguard, 340 MK V and 460 MK V. The 460 I have not shot in quite a while and it is not meant to be a benchrest rifle. For that matter, nor is my 340. However, I would stack my 340 up against your every day garden variety 338 Winnie from Rem, Ruger, Winchester or whomever.

For the record, I have had more than a few rifles in my time that would not shoot under 1" without a ton of work. And some of them, even after work, I suspect, were nothing better than tomato stakes or boat anchors.

Anyway, you make some good points but some of your claims run contrary to what I have seen with my own eyes. That's not an insult to you, nor am I calling you a liar. It's just two different men with different experiences. And by the way, I consider myself a shooter as well as a hunter. The good Lord knows that I have devoted enough of my life to this passion; maybe too much.

Anyway, Happy New Year and God Bless.

Landrum
 
10% of 3155=315.5

3500-3155=345

Talk about not good at math........

I'd also urge you to look at the pressures in which each are operating at. What do they tell you?

They tell me that the 257 Roy can still be run even harder, for more velocity increase over the 25-06. A FACT. Try it. I won't go into it any more, as some will not like the loads I quote, even though they are safe and sound, tried and true. In real life, the 257 can and does get loaded to velocities the 25-06 is simply not capable of. Regardless of what your reloading manual tells you.......
 
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I don't have much to add. Other than, I just want to say that I have seen Ackman's Savage action .257 Wby shoot - and it IS VERY accurate. Three shot groups around 1/4 MOA. And not just a lucky, or "best" group, but a single target sheet with half a dozen groups all like that.

What is really impressive though, is the way it launches a rock chuck. That's a beautiful thing to see!

- DAA
 
There are plenty of accurate 257 Roys, just like there are plenty of accurate 25-06's. Several I know run 257 Roys and run them hard. They are one of the truly "magical" cartridges out there IMO. They kill beyond what they "should", methinks.

Good to hear from you, DAA. It's been a while. Happy New Year......
 
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BTW - You're talking nonsense. And that latest gem about 30-40% more powder.....where do you come up with stuff like that? In 30yrs there're lots of things you never learned. Right now you've no idea what you're talking about. And after making really foolish statements that are just plain wrong, you keep trying to justify them.



Where do I get it from?
How about any reloading manual in existence.....Here's one load from the Hogdon manual, using H4350...a very common powder in the middle of the burn rates.

.257 WBY
100 GR. SPR SPBT 100 H4350 .257" 3.200" 59.0 3312 44,900 CUP 63.0 3500 52,400 CUP

vs. 25/06
100 GR. NOS PART 100 H4350 .257" 3.200" 47.0 3038 47,800 CUP 50.0 3155 51,500 CUP

257- 63gr h4350 = 3500fps
25/06- 50gr h4350 = 3155fps

Not good at math? That's 27% more powder for a velocity increase of under 10%

I'd list more for ya but there's too many examples and you apparently refuse to see facts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

But hey....burn as much powder as you like and pretend your weatherby magnums are benchrest accurate. I'll stick to the facts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif




Well I haven't used 4350 in that cartridge and my loads are quite a bit heavier. Velocity is considerably higher too. Real life for the 25-06 is also quite a bit more. But this is getting silly. Nobody claimed benchrest accuracy and nobody claimed efficiency.....I'm not at all concerned about how much powder one of these cases burns, only what it does. But 27% isn't 30-40%, so how's your own math?

People have to "get it from" a book when they haven't done it. If you haven't done it, you don't know. So you have no facts of your own. Pretty foolish to be arguing about stuff when your facts have to come from a book. But people on this board have done it and really do know. I have chrono tapes and targets to back up anything I say, the same goes for ackleyman. What do you have? Not even enough sense to STFU about what you don't know, and instead keep making statements that are just flatout wrong.
 
I think that there are two differnet converstions going on here, the accuracy of Weatherby brand of rifles and the and the accuracy of a Weatherby cartridge that has the dimensions reduced down to being a minimum spec in a custom barrel.

Make no mistake about it, the 257 Weatherby with little or no freebore is one accurate round with many powders and bullets. Three shot groups that clover leaf or better are what is to be expected from bullet weights that range from the 85's going 4100+, 100's in the 3800+ area, and the 115's at 3650 fps when a quality barrel like Lilja, Hart, Pac Nor, etc are used.

If you think that this is a mind blower, then neck the case up to 6.5, and you will shoot the 120's at 3700 fps with a custom reamer made the same way!

Now if you want a real fast rifle, my 7 STW shooting the 120g Barnes Tripple shock at 3930 with a 26" Stainless barrel is a real laser. At 400 yards, this rifle is hard to believe, and I don't get to shoot beyond 400 very often.

These big cases are extremely accurate and fast when you do away with all the freebore. I have talked to several custom gunsmiths that find this hard to believe, in fact, they think that you need all the freebore to make them accurate. There a few custom gunsmiths out there that have tried these minimum spec chambers for themselves and they have quite a following.

I know of the gunsmith in San Diego that specializes in the 257 Weatherby with zero freebore, and i know of a gunsmith in Texas that specializes in the 25/06 with a minimumm spec very little freebore that gets 3650 out of the 100's and 3350 out of the 117's (I did not believe it until I worked up a load for one of his rifles usinig R#25).

There is a an entirely new world out there for custom guns once you do away with most of the freebore, but of course you have to work up loads in them to fit that particular chamber. If you tried to fire factory Weatherby ammo in a custom chamber with no freebore, you would probably not be able to open the bolt! I had the neck on my 257 Weatherby cut short to fit the 7 Mag brass necked down, and also would preclude anyone from ever firing a factory round my gun in the event of my demise.
 
When I was a guide, these kind of conversations would always come up at either suppertime or beer around the fire time. There was usually a Weatherby guy in the mix, sometimes two. Pretty heated conversations. My opinion was always asked for (like I know much about Weatherbys, or even cared about the argument) and I always said, "What would you guys rather get shot with? His 340 Weatherby or your 270?" Usually ended the fight.
 
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I say let it die.


No please, I dont like the tracking. Shoot it with a .257weatherby mag /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



LOL! Oh, that was good! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Well I haven't used 4350 in that cartridge and my loads are quite a bit heavier. Velocity is considerably higher too. Real life for the 25-06 is also quite a bit more. But this is getting silly. Nobody claimed benchrest accuracy and nobody claimed efficiency.....I'm not at all concerned about how much powder one of these cases burns, only what it does. But 27% isn't 30-40%, so how's your own math?

People have to "get it from" a book when they haven't done it. If you haven't done it, you don't know. So you have no facts of your own. Pretty foolish to be arguing about stuff when your facts have to come from a book. But people on this board have done it and really do know. I have chrono tapes and targets to back up anything I say, the same goes for ackleyman. What do you have? Not even enough sense to STFU about what you don't know, and instead keep making statements that are just flatout wrong.



OMFG...LMAO
Now your .257 is so magical that it belies every "book" from every ballistician, ballistics lab, and even the laws of physics.

You also have chrono tapes to prove that the Wby mags are inefficient and overbored? that must be a new-fangled chronograph that I haven't seen yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Or do your tapes show that the Wby's are comparatively innacurate? I gotta git me one of those chronographs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

When all else fails, you want to argue semantics.
yep, 27% isn't 30%. I grabbed the first load I could find and that's what it works out to. I could provide more but I think it's a moot point now. You've been owned...lol

You argued with every single point I made about the .257, then when proven wrong, resorted to personal insults and deflected the argument to another point....where you were proven wrong again.

In the end, none of the manuals, and none of the laws of physics matter one bit, because your magic weatherby with the magical barrel isn't affected by any stupid ol book or gravity or nothing else... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

I'm not really sure how my opinion of the weatherby products turned into such an attack-fest on your part, especially since I presented factual information backed up by every leading source of ballistic data in existence /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Then there's the bit about removing "freebore" in a 25/06...HUH?

My personal favorite, and the most telling bit about your handloading skills is this:

"People have to "get it from" a book when they haven't done it. If you haven't done it, you don't know. So you have no facts of your own. Pretty foolish to be arguing about stuff when your facts have to come from a book."

and BTW, here's another of the hundreds of published MAXIMUM loads for the .257 vs 25/06( they were fired from a standard test fixture because no more magical barrels were available)

From Hogdon/IMR:
Bullet: 87gr Spitzer FB

.257
Powder: 74.5gr IMR7828
Velocity: 3775 fps
Pressure: 53,500 CUP

25/06
Powder: 49.5gr IMR4064
Velocity: 3500fps
Pressure: 52,000 CUP

What does this data mean to the Ackman?
it means that in order for the .257 to push that bullet 8% faster than the 25/06, 50.5% more powder was used.

Yes, that's 50.5% Ack! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
That example is the epitome of inefficiency. I know in your magical barrel, it must shoot at 55,000fps, but for the rest of us, this example(just one of hundreds), seems to make the .257 look like a ridiculous cartridge.

Feel free to check my math....I think you'll find I'm correct again.
Oh and one more thing.....
You'll notice that the working pressure is lower in the 25/06. That means the barrel will last longer too...lol
 
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