Ballistically Matched Reticles ?

GrizleyHunter

GrizleyHunter

New member
What do you guys think of these type of reticles,are they any good or just a selling point.
I still have not ordered my new scope and the reticle is the last item I need to make up my mind.
 
They are the real deal...BUT...be aware they are calibrated to a particular load. Change bullet weight/type or powder weight/type and they are no longer accurate at the hash marks.
 
nmleon
I have built this gun for coyote only and a twist for 55gr only it will never see any other ammo or type of ammo.
Also I have put up a large amount of ammo to last me many years.If I shot all the ammo at yotes only it will be a very large pile of dead critters.The gun was built by Dtech-243 WSSM.The last change to it will be my new scope then it will sit in the gun safe unless it coyote hunting time.
Thanks for the info on the reticle.
 
I love my Vortex BDC reticule. It is on out to 400 yds with my 7mm Mauser hunting loads. I have thought about having trajectory matched turrets installed on another Vortex scope mounted on a 6.5x47L to use past 400 yds.
 
Oftentimes you can get them to work well enough by adjusting the magnification of the optic. I use many of them but never compromise point blank range for a long-range reticle. Even if they don't work for even hundred-yd. zeros you can adapt them for any trajectory really, once you know the stadia subtensions (measurements).
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonThey are the real deal...BUT...be aware they are calibrated to a particular load. Change bullet weight/type or powder weight/type and they are no longer accurate at the hash marks.

Its not only that... change the temperature, or pressure... and they are no longer accurate either.

My 22-250 shooting 50gr vmax at 3800fps when it is 70 degrees and 28.21 in/hg drops 31.5 inches at 500yds. Change the temp to 25 degree's and its now dropping 33.8 inches. That is just one variable. A 2" difference isn't much at 500yds, however the resulting deviation will be more dramatic if you are shooting a slower cartridge, given equal BC's anyway.

There is a proper way to shoot long range, and BDC reticles and turrets are far from the solution. They are a big step backward. A scope with matching reticle and turrets, whether it be mils or minutes, is a very accurate way to shoot long range. I'm also a proponent of reticles in the first focal plane to ensure that the holds for wind, runners, and elevation are always constant and can be accounted for using the reticle or the turret.

Relying on a BDC for precise shots is a good way to miss frequently at distances past 300yds.
 
I have 2 Springfield Armory scopes with ballistically matched reticles, one for .223 and one for .308. If you use the ammo the scope is designed for they work pretty well. I have never been able to try them past 300 yards because there is no place in my area to do so. However they do seem to work out to that range. They are not the be all, end all as far as scopes are concerned. There are more precise ways to shoot long distance. However, they are good for ranging a target or animal quickly and getting a shot off quickly without having to make any adjustments IMO.
 
Here's one i'm working with right now on my AR (now discontinued Bushnell Ballistic reticle). It's not a BDC-specific reticle, but all the 3 MOA lines have a zero at std. conditions in my coyote hunting area--

BushnellBallisticReticle-1.jpg


Dope is--
300-.5
350-.9
400-1.4
450-1.9
500-2.3
550-2.8
600-3.3

... and it's 1st-blood at 385 dead nuts at 1.2 units (buddy Mitch sure likes it)--

IMG_1077.jpg


and a 315-yarder yesterday at 0.6 units.

IMG_1078.jpg


I'll take reticles for coyotes anyday out to ~600.
 
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Originally Posted By: GrizleyHunterCR shooter
My new scope will have M1 turrets also,I have M1 turrets on most of my leupold scopes and love them.

If your gonna have M1's why would you need a BMR ?
Go duplex and dial if needed.
 
Sscoyote... what are you talking about when you say "units?"

This is the part I don't understand. While it may "work" it is certainly not precise. I know because I've been there and tried it. Sure it "worked" sometimes but there is no substitute for knowing. Lets disregard for a second that I've only found about 2/3 of BDC reticles to subtend correctly in relation to what the manual says they should.

Whether you use mils or minutes as your "units" you can run the reticle and turrets in a precise manner down to the tenth of a mil or quarter of a minute. Take premier's GEN II mil dot for example.
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You can run the reticle in tenths very easily, and the turret in tenths. With MOA reticles and MOA turrets its pretty easy to get a reticle subtended in 1 moa increments and most turrets are .25 moa clicks. That means if you are good you can hold 1/4 moa using nothing but the reticle.

Either of these methods will allow you to be precise and make sub-moa shots with confidence and precision if you and your rifle are capable of it. With a BDC... maybe you'll be "minute of coyote" out to a certain range. I've yet to see anyone with a BDC reticle lay down next to me and engage a target past 500yds with any regularity on their first shot. Sure they can correct and come on target if they see impacts... otherwise they are lost.

The reason they are lost is because the have no real knowledge of long range shooting and even if they did, their turret reads in "yards" and their reticle is un-evenly broken down as a "drop compensator" instead of a constant unit of measure such as mils or minutes.

I've heard people singing the praises of BDC but I've yet to see anyone prove it when it was demanded of them. Two years ago I was out on an elk hunt with a guy that was singing the praises of the BDC reticle/turret setup he had and how awesome it was. He lived at about 1300ft. He was hunting elk at about 9,000 feet. I watched him shoot over top of about 5 different elk over the course of a weekend. Of course I couldn't tell him anything either. Was like talking to a brick wall. He had absolutely no idea what his round was doing under those conditions at that elevation from a ballistics standpoint.

Now I realize that not everyone has the same level of commitment to shooting nor the time required to practice the discipline. Thusly, BDC's have a place in the world. However, a precision marksman tool they are not, and that place is not atop any rifle I own.

Its the difference between knowing what is going on from an exterior ballistics standpoint... and guessing what is going on.

So, to sum it up... when someone asks about BDC turrets or reticles I am either talking to a person who is wanting to learn to shoot accurately at longer ranges... or I'm talking to a person who wants to just guess and lob some rounds out there.

If you want to know, then you need to spend some time with a ballistic computer and a moa/moa or mil/mil scope. FFP is a bonus. Better yet, shoot at every 50yds from 50yds to 1000yds (or whatever you intend max range to be for your rifle) and record the conditions for each shot and the come-ups required and use that to tune your ballistic computer.

If you want to guess and maybe be "minute of coyote" (or maybe not) then a BDC is for you.
 
Orkan, i understand what you're saying. If interpolating subtension using BDC reticles is not "precise" then reticle rangefinding is also imprecise, because these systems are based on the same concepts. You are attempting to "guess" between stadia lines to a level of .1 of whatever subtension you're using. This can be done accurately and is done accurately at long-range shooting matches and by snipers (i guess) all the time. In fact, at the Allegheny Sniper Comp. you can't use a laser. It's reticle-rangefinding (interpolating subtension) only.

Couple years ago i went out with a 17 Fireball XP-100 handgun and 2 different people. We had a steel tgt. set up at 300 yds. and i told them that they needed to aim .6 (60%) of the distance between the x-hair and plex post tip to hit the center of the steel. All 3 of us shot a group that was less than MOA. one shot each on a calm day fortunately. This sort of proved that interpolating to a level of .1 of a (2.7 MOA) unit of subtension is precise enough to shoot
 
Originally Posted By: sscoyoteIf interpolating subtension using BDC reticles is not "precise" then reticle rangefinding is also imprecise, because these systems are based on the same concepts.

No they are not based on the same concepts. They are not even close. Forget for a second that I wasn't talking about range estimation at all. I'm simply talking about mapping your reticle based on your trajectory in a given condition.

BDC's whole claim to fame is that you simply know the yardage, and then use the reticle or dial the yardage on the turret to match.

For instance, say you are going to tell someone what your drop is at 400yds. You say, "use the 3rd line" or something or "dial the turret to 400yds." How is that the same as saying "come up 1.5 mils" or "come up 7.25 minutes?"

Subdivide a mil reticle into tenths. Easy. Each mil is the same distance apart. BDC reticles are not. A BDC set for 5.56 is not subtended the same as a BDC set for 7.62. Heck, even BDC's set for 5.56 are different from each other. There is no standard to which the reticle must adhere.

You talk about "sniper" competitions. Well I've only competed in one... and I took first place in about half the time of the next closest competitor. I'm not about to get into a sexual organ measuring contest... but I'll say that I've not seen ANY competitor use a BDC reticle and put down a good run. The 25 or so that I beat didn't... and I didn't either.

No serious long range shooter is going to rely on a BDC reticle. This isn't even open for debate. If there is such a shooter, then he has "proven" the reticle in the field at the ranges he is shooting and he knows that if he changes elevation or the temperature is more than 10 degrees different from when he proved the load... that his data is no good anymore.

However, we aren't talking about long range shooting. We are talking about predator hunting right? So in theory a 300yd shot will be a VERY FAR shot if we are calling how we are suppose to. So I'm not saying a BDC doesn't have its place. Its just not on one of my rifles. If a person doesn't want to invest the time required to learn exterior ballistics... then it could be just the ticket, but don't go spinning BDC setups off like they are the end all of long range shooting... because they are NOT.

On more than one occasion I've been shooting steel around guys with BDC and heard them blabbing it up about how awesome it is. When I ask them to produce a first round hit on an IPSC at 800yds NONE (read zero) could deliver. They couldn't deliver because they had absolutely no idea what their round was actually doing. Sure they were lethal inside of 400yds, but who isn't?

Shooting is an angular science. Linear measurements are only used to define distance to target. Trying to run a scope calibrated with an angular measurement is in direct opposition with all the sciences of long range shooting. This is just the way it is.

As I said though, we are coyote hunting and our shots should be inside of 200yds no matter what. Inside of 400yds with most cartridges, the different pressure and temperature make little difference. So could you take a BDC that you've shot on paper and you know its on at 300yds just where it says it should be, and go shoot a coyote just about anywhere at 300yds? Most likely yes. So as I said, a BDC will work in the short range. However, when you get past 400yds, you WILL discover what all long range shooters already know about BDC.



 
Inside 200yds I can hit a (standing) coyote near 100% of the time with iron sights!

Orkan, instead of contention, you should really cultivate a friendship with sscoyote, he's one of the finest longrange shooters on the board. He shoots (has shot confirmed) prairie dogs at 1500yds with a pistol

I suspect that you two would really enjoy each other's company and would be fast friends if you ever met in person.

Come to the hunt in Feb (really), both of you (and every body else), come to the hunt)!!. I suspect there's a bunch of us who could gain valuable knowledge from you both (and from 2MG as well).
 
Hey Leon--i appreciate the positive comments sir, but that wasn't me--that was Ray Prager out of Denver, and Ernie Bishop out of Gillette, WY. But...i was there, actually spotting for them. I did set up the shots for them though, and i KNEW they were going to get their respective "world records" when they did.

Love to meet these guys and shoot with them some. I figure i'm never too old to learn.

I'd love to come to the hunt too, but i can't as i have "reservations" at the Varmint Hunter's Jamboree this year, and this shoot-- http://www.moaguns.com/coldturkey.html

This is what happens to a married shooter, i guess.
 
I'll have to find you in pierre sscoyote.
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I'm only 100 miles from the jamboree.

I wouldn't say I have contention with sscoyote nmelon. Just a different way of doing things. I'm no stranger to long range shooting myself, and love debating the topic.
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