Beck: Help us restore traditional American values

Red, While it raises food for thought, your quote is itself largely myth or misinformation.

Just a few points without disassembling it in detail:

There were very few families in America (percentage wise) that ever were able to afford slaves or servants. To hold that as the "norm" at any time for other than a very narrow segment of the population is disingenuous at best.

As a just "for instance" in colonial days the average couple lived to be married less than twelve years because the average life expectancy was 25 years. Divorce was almost non existent.

We are much more likely to " have a teenage daughter turn up a mother herself" than at any time in our history, especially an unwed teenage daughter. In many segments of our population a 75% illegitimacy rate is the norm, and 26 year old grandmothers are not uncommon.

As far as the "destruction of family values" I would point to two factors that have been instrumental in our society.

#1 the government welfare system that required that a woman be an unwed (or abandoned) mother in order to collect her "entitlement" checks. If she had more children (without a father around) she could get a raise. Being a government (morally neutral) program, this effectively eliminated the shame that had been associated with unwed motherhood from the dawn of civilization and therefore permeated into society at large. A great "liberating" factor for women's rights (supposedly), but the actual consequence was a tremendous increase in the poverty rates of women and a huge increase in the rate of illegitimate births (increasing the poverty rates of children). Of course another unintended consequence (or perhaps not so unintended) of this system was increased government control of our society (they had to take care of these poor children after all).

#2 the ascendancy of "no fault" divorce laws that (again) liberated women from the the awful strictures of a bad marriage, but in fact made marriage a "temporary" arrangement where women (and men) weren't forced to make good choices the first time around, and so the result was a tremendous increase in the incidence of abandoned single moms, especially in light of the safety net of #1.

The question isn't what is perfect (in theory), nothing short of Heaven will ever be perfect. The rational calculation in the real world is what is less imperfect. By most metrics a return to "traditional" family values (accommodating modern economic realities) would probably be an improvement over the current conditions.
 
Originally Posted By: Rim_RunnerQuote:OK Rimmy, I'll bite. Do have any examples of Beck's "race baiting"?
You'll have to ask workman about the race baiting. He's the one that brought up that subject.


I brought that up in reference to Al Sharpton. If you're calling on me to provide instances of his race baiting, I'll give you a laundry list, as soon as I see the argument to support your characterization of Beck as Elmer G.
 
Quote:the ascendancy of "no fault" divorce laws that (again) liberated women from the the awful strictures of a bad marriage It’s also liberated some men from the awful strictures of a bad marriage
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Originally Posted By: RedneckRepublicQuote:
Right on again!!!
I remember an old church women telling me a long time ago,that once you destroy the family structure, the country will follow....

a shift in women's expectations, from servility to self-respect and independence, and longevity




What do you have when a so called mother is all about self-respect and independence rather than taking care of her family.

A broken home and a wreck for an ex ol lady. Kids on drugs, pregnant and running the streets, but mommy has her freedom.
It's just to bad that huge safety net is their called welfare to fund the fallout.
 
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nmleon, I'll say it as many times as I need too...These people you named are not Christians, they are people who claim to be. They are definatly not people who I would have any time to listen to. If I supported homosexuals, murder of babies, etc, etc, etc, then I would be scared to death to tell anyone that I was a Christian,for my fear of God. Anyone who condones the immorality that is abundent in todays society CAN NOT honestly say they are Christians. If they do, they are LYING. I couldn't tell you a thing about what Thomas Jefferson beleived. Jesus did not say the only qualification to be a Christian was to accept Him as their savior, He said no one goes to the Father accept through Him. I can assure you of this... You can't honestly say you are a Christian, but live like the devil. The devil himself beleives in Jesus Christ, and he is definatly NOT a Christian. I hope you are not another one who has something against Chrisitans. Christians are not the cause of this nation's problems. Its the lack of Christians that has led to this.

-Dave
 
Quote:It’s also liberated some men from the awful strictures of a bad marriage

I should have been more explicit RR. Sarcasm sometimes doesn't come across very well in this medium.

My point was that although it was championed as a great thing for women's rights, it's turned out to be terrible for women and a (nearly) free pass for men (like welfare) at least individually.



Quote:These people you named are not Christians

Dave, you really don't think Jimmy Carter or Martin Luther King are/were Christians?

How about Glen Beck (the origin of this thread), is he a Christian? You are aware that he's a Mormon and doesn't accept the trinity doctrine of God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost aren't you?



Quote:I hope you are not another one who has something against Chrisitans.

I AM a Christian, though whether or not you would classify me as one is totally irrelevant. My pact is with Christ, my God, not you.



Quote:Christians are not the cause of this nation's problems. Its the lack of Christians that has led to this.

Your definition of who is a "real" Christian seems to hinge greatly on "living a Christian life". By that criteria Jimmy Carter (also a devout born again Christian of exemplary moral standards) would certainly qualify as a Christian, probably more so than most of us. He is far from a venal or sinful man and I would grant that everything he does is informed by his belief in a loving and charitable Christ whom he joyfully accepts as his savior.

He is also directly responsible (albeit from the best and most Christian of intentions) for much of the deluded governmental social policies that plague our nation today.

I don't question his Christianity or his goodness as a man, just his political beliefs.

He's just one recent example of where a devout and Godly Christian was "the cause of this nation's problems"...a LOT of them.
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonHow about Glen Beck (the origin of this thread), is he a Christian? You are aware that he's a Mormon and doesn't accept the trinity doctrine of God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost aren't you?


Is that a requirement to being a Christian?
 
nmleon, Jimmy carter can build as many houses as he wants, but if he supports queers and abortion and immorality in his politics, he is not a Christian. I have to be honest here and tell you that I don't really know that much about him or his record on such things.

No, I didn't know what faith Glen Beck was until now. I know this about Glen Beck: While you are pecking on your computer about how the Christians have caused our country all these problems (a lie), he is standing in public on nation wide television speaking to everyone about GOD and how we must turn to him and return to our faith. Now you tell me who is in the wrong here?

I firmly beleive that we are where we are now due to a society of cowards who would rather lose their manhood than stand up for what is right and moral just for the fear of offending someone. Politicians have used the "don't affend anyone" policy for a long time in order to gain votes = gain positions = gain money and power. These people should have been ran out from the start. This has snow balled into what we have today.

Its unbeleivable that anyone would blame Christians for what is wrong today. Blame the ones who say its ok to be useless, lazy, and immoral, because we are all equal and we all have the right to be scum.

-Dave
 
Quote:I know this about Glen Beck: While you are pecking on your computer about how the Christians have caused our country all these problems (a lie),
Before you start calling me a liar Dave, maybe you should actually read my posts.

My position is NOT that Christianity is bad for the country or that Christians (or Christianity) have "have caused our country all these problems". That is NOT what I said or believe.

My position is that Christianity (or it's lack) is not what defines who has historically been good or bad as a politician/leader in the U.S.

There are Christians who have been very good for the country (Ronald Reagan), and very bad (Jimmy Carter).

There are also non Christians who have been very good for the country (Thomas Jefferson) and who are very bad (Obama).





Quote:he is standing in public on nation wide television speaking to everyone about GOD and how we must turn to him and return to our faith.
Careful Dave, (by your own standards) you are probably about to blaspheme. Glenn Beck was specifically calling for us to return to our faith no matter what faith that is, including specifically Jewish, Hindu, and Muslim (he had Muslim imams on stage with him when he was saying that).

Are you saying that you personally would be okay with a Muslim president as long as he was of strong faith and moral convictions? If so, how about Louis Farrakhan? He is certainly of strong religious and moral convictions and advocates a strong work ethic and personal responsibility (and would be an absolute disaster as president).





Quote:I firmly beleive that we are where we are now due to a society of cowards who would rather lose their manhood than stand up for what is right and moral just for the fear of offending someone. Politicians have used the "don't affend anyone" policy for a long time in order to gain votes = gain positions = gain money and power. These people should have been ran out from the start. This has snow balled into what we have today.
I don't disagree with that statement at all, though I don't think it's strong enough. I would go considerably further than that.

Where we disagree is in your belief that those problems are caused specifically by a lack of Christianity in our leaders.

I DO believe our leaders should have strong Christian moral convictions as far as that goes. Not just strong moral character, but strong moral character at least informed by Christianity (Jefferson). Our constitution and system of laws (which Jefferson was largely influential in developing) is based on Christian values.

I believe it's critical to our survival as the leading country in the world that we elect conservative leaders with strong moral convictions, and historically many of the best leaders that we've had (though not all) have been professed Christians.

Unfortunately some of our worst liberal leaders have also been very moral men (and professed Christians). They were TOTALLY misguided in their political beliefs, but nonetheless of strong moral convictions and character.

Not all of our idiot liberal leaders have been immoral thieves. Some have been very morally upstanding men of faith with misguided liberal idealism. They have been just as destructive to our country through the law of unintended consequences as the immoral thieves (maybe more so in the long run). Hubert Humphrey and his civil rights "I'll eat my hat if this turns into quotas" comes to mind.

That is why I made the original statement referring to Glenn Beck's rally:

I was somewhat disappointed with the emphasis on faith as opposed to politics.

While I am a Christian and would not belittle the importance of faith in personal matters or it's importance in the overall scheme of life, I feel the immediate problems of today are primarily problems of a political nature, not of religiosity.
 
nmleon, I did not know that Glen Beck was speaking to muslems, hindo, or any other false religion. A muslem president is what we have, and no, I do not approve. On my last statment, I would have gone much further than that also. It would have been a long book's worth, and most likley removed anyway. Back to the first part of your last post...Anyone who blames Christians for the problems we have in this country is just another anti to me. If that is not your position, then I'm glad, but it's just how I took it. I hope I am wrong. I feel like its our job to defend Christianity, I hope you feel the same. It's just hard to tell from the post.

-Dave
 

Quote:There are Christians who have been very good for the country (Ronald Reagan), and very bad (Jimmy Carter).

I get it now so if you are a Democrat you cannot be a good Christian for the country but if you are a Republican you must be a wonderful Christian. Now we are judging people based on whether they have a D or R in front of their name!

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

By the way Dave is right, Beck is a Mormon, and they are a very deluded sect of Christians, and not very popular in my neck of the woods, which is saying something, because I live in a very religious area which allows even snake handlers to thrive.
 
Originally Posted By: RedneckRepublicJudge not, lest ye be judged.

By the way Dave is right, Beck is a Mormon, and they are a very deluded sect of Christians

RR, It seems like you may have contradicted yourself in just two brief sentences. How can you say "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and then make the very "informed" observation (judgment) that Mormons are a "deluded sect of Christians", which you support, not with perverted or distorted Christian doctrine, but by saying that they are not popular in your neck of the woods, even though the "non-deluded" snake handlers are accepted. (By that logic Mormons must be REALLY far out there!)

Maybe this is a good example why its important to look into the totality of the scriptures we like to throw out there to "call out" the intolerant.

For instance, "Judge not lest ye be judged". (Matthew 7:1) The next verse (Matthew 7:2) continues "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again". In short, Christ is not only telling us not to judge each other, he is warning us that if we judge unfairly, to expect that same judgment to be returned to us.(obviously by Him, who holds the right to the ultimate judgment of each of us) The next several verses of scripture explain further that we are basically all very flawed and that we should realize that, before we judge one another. (Even "deluded" Christians, since that would be the "Christian" thing to do)

These quotations are from the King James Version of the Bible that the majority of the Christian world believes to be God's Word. The "very deluded sect of Christians" known to you as Mormons also believes that.
 
Originally Posted By: RedneckRepublic
Quote:There are Christians who have been very good for the country (Ronald Reagan), and very bad (Jimmy Carter).

I get it now so if you are a Democrat you cannot be a good Christian for the country but if you are a Republican you must be a wonderful Christian. Now we are judging people based on whether they have a D or R in front of their name!

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

By the way Dave is right, Beck is a Mormon, and they are a very deluded sect of Christians, and not very popular in my neck of the woods, which is saying something, because I live in a very religious area which allows even snake handlers to thrive.



How about "by their fruits ye shall know them"? The Mormon "church" is a cult, not Christian. That's not to say that someone who professes to be a Mormon cannot be a Christian, but they are confused and on the wrong track.
 
Originally Posted By: redeyeddawgHow about "by their fruits ye shall know them"? The Mormon "church" is a cult, not Christian. That's not to say that someone who professes to be a Mormon cannot be a Christian, but they are confused and on the wrong track.

Well Dawg, I hope I'm a Christian, as I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and know that he is my Savior. I guess God will judge that, and like you said "By their fruits ye shall know them". Last time I checked I wasn't in a cult, but you may be right about the confused part, although not very confused about what Master I serve and who died for my sins.

Back to the original topic of this thread, Glen Beck's main political and social influence was a man named Cleon Skousen. Many of you have probably read his best seller, "The 5,000 Year Leap", that explores the "miracle" of America's founding, the Constitution and the need for America to be a "Nation under God". He wrote a few other political books and founded the National Center for Constitutional Studies. But he also wrote several "religious" books with most of the same overtones as the political ones, but with a closer link to "God's Law", modern revelation and the future of America.

Understanding the deeper context of Beck's mentor gives you a better insight into his motivation for his show, books and rallies. I have conversations with friends that rail on Beck as being so far out there and "uber-conservative". In reality they have no idea, since he has taken up Skousen's mantle, he has to be one of the most conservative "political figures" in America.
 
Quote:Quote:There are Christians who have been very good for the country (Ronald Reagan), and very bad (Jimmy Carter). I get it now so if you are a Democrat you cannot be a good Christian for the country but if you are a Republican you must be a wonderful Christian.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Let me rephrase it: There are GOOD Christians who have been absolutely terrible political leaders for our country, and there have been GOOD Christians who have been very good political leaders for our country.

The difference in the quality of their leadership was/is their political beliefs, not religion.

As far as Democrat and Republican, if a politician is a Dem he's almost certainly deluded at best and evil at worst. If he's a Republican there's at least a chance he's okay. (That's tongue in cheek humor...sort of)
 
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