Cooper or Kimber?????
- Thread starter philip
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Bayou City Boy
New member
Dogleg:
We must have been typing at the same time, so you might want to check my response before your post for more info.
I don't know if anyone has tried to abuse this, but keep in mind its pretty easy for an expert with a bore scope to see a rifle barrel that has been cared for and shot a lot (shot out) versus one that has been abused (shot too hot, carelessly and improperly cleaned, etc.). Also, you may want a new barrel because in your mind its "shot out" but it may still meet their accuracy guarantees, which are on their web site. I can pretty well guess what happens then.
Plus, I'm fairly sure what response you'd get if you sent the rifle back expecting a new barrel every time you went PD shooting. I'm sure they keep records, and expect to have a little common sense applied by the owner.
For me, keeping a barrel in good shape as long as I can is worth a lot more than having a new barrel every time I turn around. Even with their policy. Plus, I have always found a better reason to buy a Cooper than the thought of possibly getting a new barrel at some point in time.
My wife can't name off all the makes of rifles I own, but I think she would be pretty quick to tell you a barrel guarantee has nothing to do with what rifles I have purchased or might purchase in the future. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I really like what Lilja, PacNor, and a few others can do for me, too.
Bottom Line: They will do it, but I don't think you can expect to be dealing with fools if you would try to abuse it.
- BCB
We must have been typing at the same time, so you might want to check my response before your post for more info.
I don't know if anyone has tried to abuse this, but keep in mind its pretty easy for an expert with a bore scope to see a rifle barrel that has been cared for and shot a lot (shot out) versus one that has been abused (shot too hot, carelessly and improperly cleaned, etc.). Also, you may want a new barrel because in your mind its "shot out" but it may still meet their accuracy guarantees, which are on their web site. I can pretty well guess what happens then.
Plus, I'm fairly sure what response you'd get if you sent the rifle back expecting a new barrel every time you went PD shooting. I'm sure they keep records, and expect to have a little common sense applied by the owner.
For me, keeping a barrel in good shape as long as I can is worth a lot more than having a new barrel every time I turn around. Even with their policy. Plus, I have always found a better reason to buy a Cooper than the thought of possibly getting a new barrel at some point in time.
My wife can't name off all the makes of rifles I own, but I think she would be pretty quick to tell you a barrel guarantee has nothing to do with what rifles I have purchased or might purchase in the future. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I really like what Lilja, PacNor, and a few others can do for me, too.
Bottom Line: They will do it, but I don't think you can expect to be dealing with fools if you would try to abuse it.
- BCB
BCB,
Of course, abuse would have to be a deal breaker, but varmint rifles are shot in volume, and some cartridges are harder on barrels than others. I have sent an email to Cooper of Montana to see what they have to say on the matter. I personally own a Kimber, but am not taking a side in this one. If they can flat out tell me that they will replace my barrels, a Cooper will get one or two slots in what I laughingly call my "collection".There is no law against having both, right?
BTW, my wife couldn't tell you what make of rifles or barrels I have either, but I suspect that it is more due to lack of interest than anything else. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif We have a deal; she limits herself to rolling her eyes, and I don't bore her with the details!So far it's working for us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Dogleg
Of course, abuse would have to be a deal breaker, but varmint rifles are shot in volume, and some cartridges are harder on barrels than others. I have sent an email to Cooper of Montana to see what they have to say on the matter. I personally own a Kimber, but am not taking a side in this one. If they can flat out tell me that they will replace my barrels, a Cooper will get one or two slots in what I laughingly call my "collection".There is no law against having both, right?
BTW, my wife couldn't tell you what make of rifles or barrels I have either, but I suspect that it is more due to lack of interest than anything else. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif We have a deal; she limits herself to rolling her eyes, and I don't bore her with the details!So far it's working for us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Dogleg
Bayou City Boy
New member
I understand what you are saying.
My point was that - using your words - "shot in volume" may also mean shot to the point of getting too hot. Although not necessarily intentional, that might be a deal breaker as it would definitely show up differently in a bore scope versus a barrel that has just flat been "shot a lot" but never abused by excessive heat, excessive pressure, etc.
I guess my real point with the illustration with my wife is that nothing is ever really "free" in the sense of how some folks view it. It is kinda' amusing though how some people start looking for the end of the line when they hear the word "free".
I guess that's just people.
On a side note, quite a few years back one of the regular rifle companies in the US re-barreled a rifle for me that was sent back to them because of a problem with the safety hanging up. The note that came back with the rifle merely stated that the rifle had obviously been well cared for but had lots of rounds down the barrel, so they replaced it.
Not something I expected, but it happened once, even with them. Incidently - they no longer exist in the form they were then - they're now US Repeating Arms - then they were Winchester Firearms Company, if I remember the old name correctly. - BCB
My point was that - using your words - "shot in volume" may also mean shot to the point of getting too hot. Although not necessarily intentional, that might be a deal breaker as it would definitely show up differently in a bore scope versus a barrel that has just flat been "shot a lot" but never abused by excessive heat, excessive pressure, etc.
I guess my real point with the illustration with my wife is that nothing is ever really "free" in the sense of how some folks view it. It is kinda' amusing though how some people start looking for the end of the line when they hear the word "free".
I guess that's just people.
On a side note, quite a few years back one of the regular rifle companies in the US re-barreled a rifle for me that was sent back to them because of a problem with the safety hanging up. The note that came back with the rifle merely stated that the rifle had obviously been well cared for but had lots of rounds down the barrel, so they replaced it.
Not something I expected, but it happened once, even with them. Incidently - they no longer exist in the form they were then - they're now US Repeating Arms - then they were Winchester Firearms Company, if I remember the old name correctly. - BCB
BCB,
I'll just have to wait and see what they have to say. If that is their policy I will order one faster than you can say 6/284! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifWe will see what they have to say about that, with fair warning.
It has alway been impressive how gun and especially reloading equipment manufacturers often treat their customers. If only auto makers felt the same way!
Dogleg
I'll just have to wait and see what they have to say. If that is their policy I will order one faster than you can say 6/284! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifWe will see what they have to say about that, with fair warning.
It has alway been impressive how gun and especially reloading equipment manufacturers often treat their customers. If only auto makers felt the same way!
Dogleg
Quote:
Shot out barrels are why we spend money with good vendors like Lilja, Shilen and PacNor, to name just a couple. I've done it several times and have not been disappointed with any of their products or services.
All you have to do is send them the barreled action with the appropriate amount of money.
If you are the original owner of a shot out Cooper, all you have to send them is the barreled action.
If you do that once with a Cooper, it cuts its original cost by about 50% when its returned with a new barrel attached. - BCB
"If you are the original owner of a shot out Cooper, all you have to send them is the barreled action.BCB"
To answer in your own words BCB why don't you call Cooper and find out what defines a shot out barrel? Since you have Coopers this must be a concern to you.
Put Coopers reply in writing please and note who said it.
Thanks.
Shot out barrels are why we spend money with good vendors like Lilja, Shilen and PacNor, to name just a couple. I've done it several times and have not been disappointed with any of their products or services.
All you have to do is send them the barreled action with the appropriate amount of money.
If you are the original owner of a shot out Cooper, all you have to send them is the barreled action.
If you do that once with a Cooper, it cuts its original cost by about 50% when its returned with a new barrel attached. - BCB
"If you are the original owner of a shot out Cooper, all you have to send them is the barreled action.BCB"
To answer in your own words BCB why don't you call Cooper and find out what defines a shot out barrel? Since you have Coopers this must be a concern to you.
Put Coopers reply in writing please and note who said it.
Thanks.
Bayou City Boy
New member
savage99:
Yes, I own Coopers, but I thought you were the one with the inquiring mind.
As I stated earlier, I try to do all I can to save a barrel as long as I can. Even though I go through quite a few rounds each year shooting PD's etc. On the other hand, I'm still not clutching the first nickel I ever made, nor am I concerned that I don't have it.
When I get to the point that its an issue - and I feel the rest of the rifle is worth salvaging versus getting an entirely new rifle, I'll probably do just exactly what you want me to do for you - contact Cooper. Then I'm sure I'll send the rifle to Cooper for their inspection and go from there. Or, I might even send it to someone else and get a new barrel installed at my cost - heaven forbid!! - if that makes sense at the time in terms of turn-around, etc.
In the meantime, I'm not really worried or concerned about it. Don't be cheap - use your own dime if you need an answer now - e-mails are even cheaper. - BCB
Yes, I own Coopers, but I thought you were the one with the inquiring mind.
As I stated earlier, I try to do all I can to save a barrel as long as I can. Even though I go through quite a few rounds each year shooting PD's etc. On the other hand, I'm still not clutching the first nickel I ever made, nor am I concerned that I don't have it.
When I get to the point that its an issue - and I feel the rest of the rifle is worth salvaging versus getting an entirely new rifle, I'll probably do just exactly what you want me to do for you - contact Cooper. Then I'm sure I'll send the rifle to Cooper for their inspection and go from there. Or, I might even send it to someone else and get a new barrel installed at my cost - heaven forbid!! - if that makes sense at the time in terms of turn-around, etc.
In the meantime, I'm not really worried or concerned about it. Don't be cheap - use your own dime if you need an answer now - e-mails are even cheaper. - BCB
BCB,
In summary you have seen Kimbers that were not right but all Coopers are good. You heard that Cooper replaces barrels but now that your called on it you pass.
In my view you have lost credibility.
Now either follow up on the Cooper free barrel thing or don't reply until you do.
In summary you have seen Kimbers that were not right but all Coopers are good. You heard that Cooper replaces barrels but now that your called on it you pass.
In my view you have lost credibility.
Now either follow up on the Cooper free barrel thing or don't reply until you do.
Quote:
In regards to Cooper replacing shot out barrels, all I can say is, "I've seen 'em do it". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
- DAA
Now we're getting some place, what can you tell us about that? Is it a routine thing or something that has happened on occasion? For a manufacturer with an accuracy guarantee to keep a varmint rifle in barrels might be a little too much to expect, but it WAS held up in an earlier post as a great reason to buy one. This it surely would be, but that position got blurry after it was stated. Any insight that you could offer would be appreciated, I could really get behind a deal like that. It does seem a little too good to be true, but I am still hopeful that it is. I have already emailed Cooper about this.
Dogleg
In regards to Cooper replacing shot out barrels, all I can say is, "I've seen 'em do it". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
- DAA
Now we're getting some place, what can you tell us about that? Is it a routine thing or something that has happened on occasion? For a manufacturer with an accuracy guarantee to keep a varmint rifle in barrels might be a little too much to expect, but it WAS held up in an earlier post as a great reason to buy one. This it surely would be, but that position got blurry after it was stated. Any insight that you could offer would be appreciated, I could really get behind a deal like that. It does seem a little too good to be true, but I am still hopeful that it is. I have already emailed Cooper about this.
Dogleg
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Cooper may do it sometimes but I don't see how they can do it continuously. At least not for me as I use up a lot of barrels.
That aside, Cooper and Kimber are not comparable because they are in a different class of rifles.
True, you can possibly get a bad Cooper, and you might get a Kimber as good as the Cooper. But on average, the Cooper will be heads and shoulders above the Kimber.
Jack
That aside, Cooper and Kimber are not comparable because they are in a different class of rifles.
True, you can possibly get a bad Cooper, and you might get a Kimber as good as the Cooper. But on average, the Cooper will be heads and shoulders above the Kimber.
Jack
Bayou City Boy
New member
Savage99:
Whether I have any credibility with you is totally irrelevant to me.
I followed up in a subsequent post on what DAA originally stated several pages back - you smelled a free lunch - and then you expected me to get the information for you. And by saying that, I'm not trying to put the burden of proof on DAA. If he says he has seen it happen, I'm sure he has done just that. I'm just stating what has occurred in my experience.
I have talked to Cooper about this very issue. It came up in a phone call back about a year ago. I knew about it earlier and happened to mention it one time when calling about other issues.
In my conversation with a Cooper employee it was stated that they look for abuse and if they see none, they will replace a barrel for the original owner. I did not ask for a full and complete definition of "abuse" or "will replace" to meet all legal standards or anything else about the policy. The statement really didn't cause me to become overwhelmed with a notion of "freebies for all" at the time. It was what it was, and I already owned several Coopers, so it was nice to know from a customer service point of view. I did not rush out and buy every Cooper I could find after that for a free barrel. However, I do believe what I was told, again for a very good reason.
If the issue got cloudy for others after that it was because I saw statements like "if I think" its a bad barrel, etc., etc.
For probably about 95% of all shooters, one re-barrel would be one more than they will ever need. I shoot a lot, but as I stated earlier in one of my "cloudy" responses, I never bought a Cooper because of the possibility of a "free lunch". I bought them for what they are. If I wear out a barrel, I will deal with it at that time. If they replace it - GREAT! If they don't for some reason - I'm not going to sell my Coopers and start a hate fest on the internet over it. I shot the barrel out - not them.
In the same light, I don't shoot my Coopers any differently than I do any other rifle, at PD's for example, because "they will give me a new barrel if I wear this one out".
At the time I talked with Cooper on this, from my past experience with them I did not feel a need to get names and social security numbers as proof for me, you, or any one else. So I will repeat - call them if you're in such emotional turmoil about it. I don't work for you.
Jack - Thanks for putting a little additional perspective to this in terms of what a Cooper rifle is.
EDIT: In response to your first statement; Yes I have seen bad Kimbers. No, I have never seen a bad Cooper, but as I said to you in an earlier post, maybe the next one will be. Did you notice that?
Whether I have any credibility with you is totally irrelevant to me.
I followed up in a subsequent post on what DAA originally stated several pages back - you smelled a free lunch - and then you expected me to get the information for you. And by saying that, I'm not trying to put the burden of proof on DAA. If he says he has seen it happen, I'm sure he has done just that. I'm just stating what has occurred in my experience.
I have talked to Cooper about this very issue. It came up in a phone call back about a year ago. I knew about it earlier and happened to mention it one time when calling about other issues.
In my conversation with a Cooper employee it was stated that they look for abuse and if they see none, they will replace a barrel for the original owner. I did not ask for a full and complete definition of "abuse" or "will replace" to meet all legal standards or anything else about the policy. The statement really didn't cause me to become overwhelmed with a notion of "freebies for all" at the time. It was what it was, and I already owned several Coopers, so it was nice to know from a customer service point of view. I did not rush out and buy every Cooper I could find after that for a free barrel. However, I do believe what I was told, again for a very good reason.
If the issue got cloudy for others after that it was because I saw statements like "if I think" its a bad barrel, etc., etc.
For probably about 95% of all shooters, one re-barrel would be one more than they will ever need. I shoot a lot, but as I stated earlier in one of my "cloudy" responses, I never bought a Cooper because of the possibility of a "free lunch". I bought them for what they are. If I wear out a barrel, I will deal with it at that time. If they replace it - GREAT! If they don't for some reason - I'm not going to sell my Coopers and start a hate fest on the internet over it. I shot the barrel out - not them.
In the same light, I don't shoot my Coopers any differently than I do any other rifle, at PD's for example, because "they will give me a new barrel if I wear this one out".
At the time I talked with Cooper on this, from my past experience with them I did not feel a need to get names and social security numbers as proof for me, you, or any one else. So I will repeat - call them if you're in such emotional turmoil about it. I don't work for you.
Jack - Thanks for putting a little additional perspective to this in terms of what a Cooper rifle is.
EDIT: In response to your first statement; Yes I have seen bad Kimbers. No, I have never seen a bad Cooper, but as I said to you in an earlier post, maybe the next one will be. Did you notice that?
Not much I can, or feel like adding here. I have a couple of buddies that are real Cooper addicts. They own three dozen of them, at least, between the two of them. Some of the things that Cooper has done to make them happy with individual rifles they've had problems with has truly impressed me. And, yes, these guys have sent in shot out barrels and got back new ones, for free. But really, if you think about it, I bet Kimber would do that too. I doubt any manufacturer will advertise it, or even state it "officially" because it opens up a huge amount of liability for them. But, I have seen shot out barrels replaced for free by a handful of different manufacturers over the years. Including Cooper, Marlin, CZ and Remington.
But, really, who cares? It's a complete non-issue for 98% of shooters. And for the ones that it is an issue, we often as not elect to pay for our own, specific custom barrel when that time comes. Who can pass up an opportunity for a new project like that?
- DAA
But, really, who cares? It's a complete non-issue for 98% of shooters. And for the ones that it is an issue, we often as not elect to pay for our own, specific custom barrel when that time comes. Who can pass up an opportunity for a new project like that?
- DAA
Bayou City Boy
New member
DAA:
Thanks for the response. I had tried to say the same things in the past couple of days, but it didn't seem to come out the way you just stated it.
I think part of the problem was my stating that a Kimber was not the same level of rifle as a Cooper. That was not what some wanted to hear.
I too have had another company - the old Winchester - re-barrel a rifle for me years ago as I mentioned in one of the posts, but that seemed to fall on deaf ears.
Anyway - BCB
Thanks for the response. I had tried to say the same things in the past couple of days, but it didn't seem to come out the way you just stated it.
I think part of the problem was my stating that a Kimber was not the same level of rifle as a Cooper. That was not what some wanted to hear.
I too have had another company - the old Winchester - re-barrel a rifle for me years ago as I mentioned in one of the posts, but that seemed to fall on deaf ears.
Anyway - BCB
BCB,
I am not in the least worked up over this Cooper fiasco. I could not care less about it in fact.
The thing that gets me about it is that a free barrel does not make sense if it's worn out! It's the one thing on a maintained centerfire that will wear out.
I can see Cooper and others replacing barrels if they don't work right. Thats the usual thing.
You seemed to be "selling" us a benefit to owning a Cooper in that the barrel would be replaced when somebody wears it out.
Now it's no sign of abuse!! I don't believe it. Again, put the policy in writing and name who wrote it or its not true.
I am not in the least worked up over this Cooper fiasco. I could not care less about it in fact.
The thing that gets me about it is that a free barrel does not make sense if it's worn out! It's the one thing on a maintained centerfire that will wear out.
I can see Cooper and others replacing barrels if they don't work right. Thats the usual thing.
You seemed to be "selling" us a benefit to owning a Cooper in that the barrel would be replaced when somebody wears it out.
Now it's no sign of abuse!! I don't believe it. Again, put the policy in writing and name who wrote it or its not true.
Bayou City Boy
New member
Savage99:
I know what I told you about the policy and what I have experienced with Cooper's customer service. DAA has told you what he knows about the policy and their customer service.
Since you still don't want to believe it and would rather question other's credibility, call them yourself and see what they tell you. That's all I can do for you - or really want to do for you, at this point.
As I said earlier, the only reason I mentioned abuse is because it was mentioned to me that way when I asked about it with Cooper. And, in this thread, I strongly sensed a couple of folks, again, smelling a free lunch. I don't think its that simple.
At the time I thought it was a very good thing for Cooper to offer original owners and still feel its a very good thing. Beyond that, you're on your own.
- BCB
Edited for spelling - BCB
I know what I told you about the policy and what I have experienced with Cooper's customer service. DAA has told you what he knows about the policy and their customer service.
Since you still don't want to believe it and would rather question other's credibility, call them yourself and see what they tell you. That's all I can do for you - or really want to do for you, at this point.
As I said earlier, the only reason I mentioned abuse is because it was mentioned to me that way when I asked about it with Cooper. And, in this thread, I strongly sensed a couple of folks, again, smelling a free lunch. I don't think its that simple.
At the time I thought it was a very good thing for Cooper to offer original owners and still feel its a very good thing. Beyond that, you're on your own.
- BCB
Edited for spelling - BCB
BCB,
Yes I am saying that either you and DAA can back up the claim that Cooper will replace worn out barrels free in writing or not.
If not your crediblility and anyone else's statement is subject to question.
Also your statements that you have seen defects on Kimber rifles but never Cooper guns are of course lacking in crediblility.
I could not care less about what you have thought of as a free lunch. In fact I never even dreamed that some company would replace worn out barrels as it makes no sense what so ever. For you, BCB to infer that I smelled a free lunch may just be transferance by you. Don't label others with whats in the back of your mind.
It may be true however that Cooper does replace worn out barrels so if it is then just copy their policy here.
Otherwise I will not believe a word that you say.
Yes I am saying that either you and DAA can back up the claim that Cooper will replace worn out barrels free in writing or not.
If not your crediblility and anyone else's statement is subject to question.
Also your statements that you have seen defects on Kimber rifles but never Cooper guns are of course lacking in crediblility.
I could not care less about what you have thought of as a free lunch. In fact I never even dreamed that some company would replace worn out barrels as it makes no sense what so ever. For you, BCB to infer that I smelled a free lunch may just be transferance by you. Don't label others with whats in the back of your mind.
It may be true however that Cooper does replace worn out barrels so if it is then just copy their policy here.
Otherwise I will not believe a word that you say.
Todd M.
New member
I have reread this entire thread again, and cannot for the life of me figure out where you are coming from Savage_99. Obviously you have had really good experience with Kimber rifles, and that is great. Others have had really good experiences with Cooper rifles, and that too is great. Why do you see it necessary to call into question anyone's integrity? Nobody has intentionally insulted you, mocked you, or even called you names. Can we have an adult conversation here?
TimZ
New member
BCB,
Yes, we are almost neighbors. I live on Richmond Ave between Bltway 8 and Hwy 6. Have a buddy who lives at Jones Rd. & 290 though.
Jack,
Thanks for chiming in. Agree with you that the average Cooper is head and shoulders above the average Kimber, as the prices would suggest.
Savage99,
Did you have too much coffee today or what? If you don't care, why do you keep responding with ever-increasing vitriol? This is the internet, everybody has an opinion. I don't believe you have any intention of buying a Cooper whether or not anyone ever got a "free" barrel or not. So its pretty much a moot point, isn't it?
Yes, we are almost neighbors. I live on Richmond Ave between Bltway 8 and Hwy 6. Have a buddy who lives at Jones Rd. & 290 though.
Jack,
Thanks for chiming in. Agree with you that the average Cooper is head and shoulders above the average Kimber, as the prices would suggest.
Savage99,
Did you have too much coffee today or what? If you don't care, why do you keep responding with ever-increasing vitriol? This is the internet, everybody has an opinion. I don't believe you have any intention of buying a Cooper whether or not anyone ever got a "free" barrel or not. So its pretty much a moot point, isn't it?