COUGAR IN WESTERN NEW YORK?????



elks wrote.......

Come on.... Are you kidding me? People like you are a huge problem. Any animal, especially a potential endangered speices should not be filed on the Shoot, shovel and shut up mentality. All this does is add fuel to anti-hunters. You might be a poacher and proud of it, but your type has no business running a muck in the world. Talk about a huge contradiction in your post... Lions are awesome animals that demand respect. If you see them in the wild you are blessed. While there are many lions out there, they are still cool. Now if the lion attacks, livestock, pets etc. it needs to be delt with. But when it comes to a speices repopulating habitat it once roamed why stop it... Once established we can add another hunting area to our checklist...


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gifYou talk about contradiction, listen to yourself...first you say "if you see them in the wild you are blessed" Oh ya, cause if they see you..."prey", and I mean "Pray" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif Then you say they are "cool?" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif But, if (and when) they attack, livestock, pets and you forgot people,deal with it?? Then this "blessing" can be added to your hunting list? well which is it? You don't want control first, wait for the problems, not only does that mean we wait for a loss, but you are setting the cougar up for failure as well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't believe this secretive, elusive, stealthy, cougar should be showing itself as they are. Does this mean there are already too many? Or they have no fear of humans? Or is this their way of DEMANDING RESPECT?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gifCougardaville
 
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If any of you think the cougar was ever extinct in NYS your kidding yourselves. We have had cougars in our neck of the woods since I was a kid. The reason you are seeing more of them is because people are moving into the cougars natural range. There is as well a concerted effort to reestiblush populations of cougars to former levels that has been undertaken by the DEC for the past 20 or so years. You can trace it back to increased deer numbers and decreased numbers of hunters to keep them in check. Do you really think the DEC would fess up to these activities?? Are these animals protected? Shoot one and find out. I'll bet you the fines will be in the thousands.

Once you factor in urban spawl, the increase in sightings is understandable, as is the reactions of the cougars to humans. This isn't a big dark secret, it's just man trying to rebalance nature after screwing it up.
 
I think people living in areas that cougars are re-populating should be dealt with in an honest manner by game officials. Not treated like fools.

Our children and livestock bleed just like a urban folks' pet would if ripped up by a coug.

Telling a livestock owner that the death of one goat was caused by a goaticide when the evidence points to a cat or telling us that our horse scratched itself on bushes while ignoring the dead bull and cow just 80 yds away is NOT DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM ....... its trying to sweep it under the rug.

There is a big mound under the rug. Soon the rug will cover no new BS!

Three 44s
 
Coondogger, your coonhounds ever tree a lion?? Do you have any pics of tracks or actual ny lions?? or are u just speculating from what youve heard. I have heard many stories but have yet to see proof and I cover alot of ground in the winter. I need solid proof to make a believer outta me.
 
Cougar Deville,

How many actual lions have you encountered in the wild????? Without actually hunting for them, or using dogs? I bet most people on this boards have logged thousands of hours in the woods and very few have ever seen more than a handfull. I have seen 4 separate lions in the woods. Thats as many as anyone else I have ever ran into. Never once did any of them give me a second look. I have called one into under a 100 yards. When it found out I was there it split in a hurry. I have had one on an elk we bagged once. It ran off as soon as we showed. It did follow us, but only because we had a nice yummy fresh killed elk. Your assumption about lions seeing us only as prey is way wrong. If it was true, then everytime a lion saw us we would be dinner. I am sure that there have been way more lions that saw me than I ever saw of them.

I am still concerned about the "Shoot, Shovel and Shut up method" it is wrong, not simply because it is illegel, but also because the animals of this earth deserve more than that. I also stand by the fact that there are many lions that live around populated areas. Just because they are there do we shoot everyone around? So far this year there have been more people and pets attacked by deer in Colorado than there have been lion attacks. Should we shoot every deer near people cause they might hurt us???? You say that they should not be showing themsleves, yet you have no real evidence that there are any around, which is it? Are they there or not? If there are as many as you think then they should be pretty easy to find and prove.

In my first post I left out humans on my list. Editing mistake, do you really think that I would draw the line at protecting livestock from predation and not humans. Use some common sense. Do not be such a conspiracy theorist.
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gifBoy, you said it Three 44's. I think all state game people must have gone to the same class. Deny, deny, deny and tell you it is something else. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Like a Fisher looks Anything like a cougar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif And those 75# coywolves are such fun when you have sheep. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
The real world is not the way Disney filmed it.
 
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Coondogger, your coonhounds ever tree a lion?? Do you have any pics of tracks or actual ny lions?? or are u just speculating from what youve heard. I have heard many stories but have yet to see proof and I cover alot of ground in the winter. I need solid proof to make a believer outta me.



Nope, never seen one, don't ever expect to. Dogs have never treed one that I know of. But I have seen the tracks. Every year shortly after the first snow. They have a very large territory, and I don't get out much after deer season, so usually it's just that one set of tracks. Too large to be coyote, too small to be bear. Just started calling coyotes this year, so I'll be out more, hopefully I'll see more of them. Used to be we'd only hear the coyotes in the summer, now we hear them 2-3 times a week. Expect that it will be that way with cougars as well. As far as wether anyone believes me or not, don't really care. I know they're here, regardless of wether I see one, or get a picture of one, or the hounds tree one. I don't pretend to know how many of them there are, or if the tracks belong to different cougars, just seeum that's all.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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Cougar Deville,

How many actual lions have you encountered in the wild????? Without actually hunting for them, or using dogs? I bet most people on this boards have logged thousands of hours in the woods and very few have ever seen more than a handfull. I have seen 4 separate lions in the woods. Thats as many as anyone else I have ever ran into. Never once did any of them give me a second look. I have called one into under a 100 yards. When it found out I was there it split in a hurry. I have had one on an elk we bagged once. It ran off as soon as we showed. It did follow us, but only because we had a nice yummy fresh killed elk. Your assumption about lions seeing us only as prey is way wrong. If it was true, then everytime a lion saw us we would be dinner. I am sure that there have been way more lions that saw me than I ever saw of them.

I am still concerned about the "Shoot, Shovel and Shut up method" it is wrong, not simply because it is illegel, but also because the animals of this earth deserve more than that. I also stand by the fact that there are many lions that live around populated areas. Just because they are there do we shoot everyone around? So far this year there have been more people and pets attacked by deer in Colorado than there have been lion attacks. Should we shoot every deer near people cause they might hurt us???? You say that they should not be showing themsleves, yet you have no real evidence that there are any around, which is it? Are they there or not? If there are as many as you think then they should be pretty easy to find and prove.

In my first post I left out humans on my list. Editing mistake, do you really think that I would draw the line at protecting livestock from predation and not humans. Use some common sense. Do not be such a conspiracy theorist.



The answer to your question is "2", one of which was in my horse pasture, I did not consider it a "Blessing" I have never used hounds to track or see them.
Question for you...what is a conspiracy theorist?

and since I am here..look at this
http://www.star-gazette.com/apps/pbcs.dl...=73228175321127
 
Well you should feel fortunate to see such an animal. I looked on your web site. And even looked at your stats page on lion attacks. In the last 4 years there have been only 20 some lion attacks counted in all of Canada, and the US. Also if you have seen 2 or even one 2 times where's your evidence? If you are so into proving that there lions everywhere, where is video, molds of footprints, pics of footprints etc. I do not doubt that they are there, but seriously doubt that it is the end of the world. Oh and if they are human killing monsters like you mention why did they not make you into a snack? People bump into lions all the time and are just fine. Sure the potential for an attack is there, but not to the point that we should kill on sight. Sorry but a lion is not the end of the world.
 
Coondogger, Ive heard the stories BUT never seen solid proof myself and I cover a lot of ground in the winter (have seen tracks that were questionable, though not definate). It would be foolish for me to say for certain they are not here, Im just looking for some proof is all.
 
NiteFright:

I can't provide you with solid proof that they are here. Just my observations while hunting. I have found fresh deer kills that could've been coyotes....or cougars. But the tracks tell me they are here. I don't ever expect to see one, because they are so steathly. Plus it might not be in my best intrest to see one, as I proably look pretty tasty to one. But I don't agree that they should be shot on sight either. Every animal fills a niche in the envirnment, and by removing all of one species, throws that envirnment into total chaos. That's why we have these population explosions to begin with. So in proveing that they live here, also puts them at risk, and does it change the way you live your life????
 
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Well you should feel fortunate to see such an animal. I looked on your web site. And even looked at your stats page on lion attacks. In the last 4 years there have been only 20 some lion attacks counted in all of Canada, and the US. Also if you have seen 2 or even one 2 times where's your evidence? If you are so into proving that there lions everywhere, where is video, molds of footprints, pics of footprints etc. I do not doubt that they are there, but seriously doubt that it is the end of the world. Oh and if they are human killing monsters like you mention why did they not make you into a snack? People bump into lions all the time and are just fine. Sure the potential for an attack is there, but not to the point that we should kill on sight. Sorry but a lion is not the end of the world.



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gifThe author named this thread, COUGARS IN WESTERN NEW YORK, it is running way off course! Its not a he said, she said, then prove it, explain it...blah blah! First of all this shoot on site did NOT come out of my mouth ever. I encourage safty, awareness,and that there is proof. I won't post it on a forum because it would run as a debate as this. If you want proof? Go talk to the people in these areas, they have pictures, plaster cast, video's but are not screaming from a mountain top because of this very reason. All we are trying to say is, New York, does indeed, have mountain lions. Most people are not aware of this as yet, they are catching up /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif OH, and the reason "I was not a snack" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif....I am aware, I am prepared and if it shows any where's near my herd or property again, I will mail it to you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Will that be fair enough for you?
 
Cougar

There was a post in this thread that mentioned the shoot and shut up and how everyone would be better off. If you notice I quoted that in my first post. Since then I am not dening the fact that they might exist. I am arguing however that if they are not a causing problems, or that if you can not prove they are to blame, how can it be justified to shoot on sight. If you have seen a lion in your area, but it has not caused you a loss then you can not and should not shoot it. If every animal was shot, that could pose a threat, we would have abunch of dead aniamls around. Now if they do become threating and are eating stock get rid of them. I think that educating the public is a good idea no matter where it is, but we should not be advocating the unnecessary edratication of wildlife.

PS Ship it too me as long as you cover the Shipping and Handling. Make sure it does not stink too bad either, wife might tan my hide if it does.
 
Elks,

Point well taken.

I will try to articulate much of the problem though.

Many of us are witnessing lion behavoir that is disturbing. Personally, we lost a calf, cow, and a bull with the scratching of a horse included. A neighbor lost two weaning sized calves.

You are not advocating "no action" and I applaud you for that. Some in this day and age would in fact turn a blind eye or worse, try to cover up and deceive.

Ironically, many of us have witnessed just this sort of behavior .........

...... FROM GAME OFFICIALS!

Now. .... if the people entrusted with game management are not part of the solution ........ what are we to conclude?

The report that WDFW (Wa. Fish and Wildlife) submitted to it's records in our depredation fails to mention the scratches on the horse or that a horse was even involved. The Game Warden upon seeing the horse took pictures and said, "its a cat! Kill the cat"!

Yet, when his Sgt. came with him the next day, it was a totally different tune! The Sargent insisted that the horse "could have scratched itself on the bushes". He said
"they" had a horse just last year that they had determined had in fact "scratched itself on bushes"! I challenged him if it was three scratches like our case and he said infatically that "yes, three scratches just like this"! He tried to blame the bulls tounge being ripped out on dogs. He tried to blame poisonous plants, anything but something that implicated a wild animal was involved.

Ridiculous!

From what I have gathered about the situation in New York, their "gamies" are doing a shuck and jive as well. There, you have cougars with no fear of people and State officials denying their existence and a report of a COUG WEARING A COLLAR!!!

So, in an atmosphere such as this, where the people purported to be handling the "public trust" who are supposed to be trained wildlife professionals divert or deceive, what are we to assume?

Three 44s
 
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we deal with the same bs every time we loose a calf to the "coyotes" here in MT,seems the wolves only eat off coyote kills cuz all the ones we have lost were killed by "coyotes" according to the F&G.Strange how bold the "coyotes" have gotten since the wolf numbers have gone up.
 
Thanks for the insight,

Yes. Going into these introductions stock owners get promised and promised. ............

Then when it hits the fan, we are IDIOTS?

So much for promises.

One curious thing. Those so called bolder coyotes are targets of the wolves. Funny how the coyotes can on one hand be dogding wolf packs and yet tear up evermore and bigger calves!

The coyotes around here have learned to be watchful for cougars. When the cat(s) are "back in town", the coyotes are REAL quiet and scarce.

Three 44s
 
One time I told a warden i trade him what they owed us for feeding the wolves for a statewide sheep tag,he said he would see what he could do for me...LOL
 
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