Coyote population in your state?
- Thread starter bhw
- Start date
Joe Bradshaw
New member
AMEN....
mikegranger
Well-known member
I knew my response would light up the board with responses. Steve, you are correct in that the coyote, if given half a chance will quickly populate an area to it's carrying capacity. As a result, predators will increase and prey will decrease. Very basic management principle. What I don't like seeing are general statements indicating that deer, antelope, elk etc belong to those of us with guns that want to kill them. There are places all over this country that have that very environment. I believe they call them game farms. You pay your money for a shot at a "wild" animal who has never been in contact with any type of predator. Wildlife management is not that. We strive for a balanced ecosystem which has room for both predator and prey. Unfortunately, back a couple of decades ago, legislatures started getting involved and people started voting about tried and proven scientific principles. As a result, bleeding hearts and well funded anit-hunting/anti-trapping organizations changed wildlife managment forever. Pick any state and you will find a wildlife law on the books that has no scientific merit to it whatsoever. This has happened in Arizona. I used to live there and didn't like it because it was too much like California.
Having said that, large-scale predator control is still not the answer. Instead, trapping and hunting should be the primary means of controlling excess numbers. If you get the government involved, we all lose. Classic example, here in Montana, about 10 years ago one could draw for a buffalo permit and shoot bison as they came out of Yellowstone Park. It wasn't really a hunt but hunters were willing to pay money for the tags, spend money in the local economies for supplies and gas just to shoot a bison. It was a win/win situation for everyone. But wait, the aniti's got involved, game agencies buckled to the percieved pressure and the hunts were stopped. The bison continued to breed and overpopulate the park but now we had to pay for the government to shoot and dispose of the animals. Who lost out on the deal? The bison still are killed. We the hunter lose out. It will be the same situation if all of a sudden the State of Arizona wants to initiate predator control on a massive basis. One, it will never work, two, the cost would be unbelievible, and three, the anti's would have a field day. The hunter for sure would lose out again.
Also, if a private landowner has the government coming in to thin out predator populations, he is much less likely to allow the average Joe coyote hunter on his place to do the same thing. What is the incentive to the landowner? None. Now if those same coyotes were eating him out of house and home he would be much more agreeable to let you on. As a result, you get to know the guy and heck, he just might let you come back for deer, at no charge!! I digress.
The bottom line, having been a deacon for many years, I know we have dominion over the animals. To me, dominion does not mean destroy or annihilate one for another. There is room for both.
Howler is right, live in place where coyotes are shot from planes and helicopters by the government year around, and the deer/car collisions are routine. You would probably trade a few deer for a few more coyotes.
I forgot something. We as hunters and trappers have to become more involved on the political scale. Maybe by doing so the trapping ban can be overturned in Årizona. I really see no hope for us if we continue to let the vocal and well funded anti's sway the masses.
And if all else fails, come to Montana, we have plenty of deer and antelope. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Having said that, large-scale predator control is still not the answer. Instead, trapping and hunting should be the primary means of controlling excess numbers. If you get the government involved, we all lose. Classic example, here in Montana, about 10 years ago one could draw for a buffalo permit and shoot bison as they came out of Yellowstone Park. It wasn't really a hunt but hunters were willing to pay money for the tags, spend money in the local economies for supplies and gas just to shoot a bison. It was a win/win situation for everyone. But wait, the aniti's got involved, game agencies buckled to the percieved pressure and the hunts were stopped. The bison continued to breed and overpopulate the park but now we had to pay for the government to shoot and dispose of the animals. Who lost out on the deal? The bison still are killed. We the hunter lose out. It will be the same situation if all of a sudden the State of Arizona wants to initiate predator control on a massive basis. One, it will never work, two, the cost would be unbelievible, and three, the anti's would have a field day. The hunter for sure would lose out again.
Also, if a private landowner has the government coming in to thin out predator populations, he is much less likely to allow the average Joe coyote hunter on his place to do the same thing. What is the incentive to the landowner? None. Now if those same coyotes were eating him out of house and home he would be much more agreeable to let you on. As a result, you get to know the guy and heck, he just might let you come back for deer, at no charge!! I digress.
The bottom line, having been a deacon for many years, I know we have dominion over the animals. To me, dominion does not mean destroy or annihilate one for another. There is room for both.
Howler is right, live in place where coyotes are shot from planes and helicopters by the government year around, and the deer/car collisions are routine. You would probably trade a few deer for a few more coyotes.
I forgot something. We as hunters and trappers have to become more involved on the political scale. Maybe by doing so the trapping ban can be overturned in Årizona. I really see no hope for us if we continue to let the vocal and well funded anti's sway the masses.
And if all else fails, come to Montana, we have plenty of deer and antelope. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
BillyTheKidd
New member
NASA, the only part of Genesis 01-1:26 that bothers me is the wording ( And God said let us make man in our image ). Who is US and who is OUR? I thought there was only ONE God? I know there are many coyotes lol. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve Craig
New member
Mike,
1st, the anti's have already had their field day here. As I see it now, trapping here is GONE forever. We have become too Californiacated . I have paid my dues as far as fighting the anti's and was doing it at the local, state, and national level for many , many years and when there was few to help. I never lost an anti trap, or anti hunt bill under my watch as President of my local chapter, as Indiana State Organizer, and the National VP of Fur Takers of America. I am a life memeber of that Organization. I have and do continue to support trapping and hunting in several states each year.
I dont know how you made the jump from my statements saying I believe that predators should be controlled, to me believing in "game farms"??? I indicated no such thing.
I do believe that trapping IS the best means of predator control. Traps, snares, Getters, and under the right cercumstances, airiel gunning. The problem is we have only the airiel gunning taking place here and only on a very limited basis and for darn sure AT THE WRONG TIME OF YEAR to do any good. So, we still have skyrocketing numbers of coyotes. Also, I havent met a rancher yet that would say no to me hunting a few coyotes. Uusally just the opposite. I have them begging me to come hunt lions and coyotes from all over the state. Literally!
I am not promoteing "Govt" running the predator control program. Any time they get involved things go to you know where. I believe that "private" run control programs can and will be more effecient,practical, and far less expensive to run. When it gets run like a business, instead of the way Govt runs things(a beurocracy), it can and does work even on a statewide scale.
The biggest problem with state G&F depts., is exacally what you stated, they will not stand up to the anti's. they think(wrongly) they can appease these people and they just cant. It is not the anti's that are supporting and paying their wages. But for some reason, they think they do! It is very simple really, they just need to get some gonads and tell these people that it is sound wildlife management practices that determines animal welfare, control of both predator and prey numbers, and that some Hollywood elitest just does not understand how these things work! Who has the most knowledge on the subject, G&F or these left wing socialists? This is why AZ lost trapping. G&F would not stand up to these types, and they did a poor job of educateing the public. It's too bad too. Maybe some of the problem is that many G&F dept's are made of the the anti types! It is running rampet here. The US Forest Service is going the same route.
I beileve you are taking what I said wrong. I DO believe in Balance. The Good Book also teaches that as well. Balance in all that we do. Wheather it be in our drinking, eating, or in our wildlife management. Right now, it is out of balance. Just my thoughts and
FWIW
Steve
1st, the anti's have already had their field day here. As I see it now, trapping here is GONE forever. We have become too Californiacated . I have paid my dues as far as fighting the anti's and was doing it at the local, state, and national level for many , many years and when there was few to help. I never lost an anti trap, or anti hunt bill under my watch as President of my local chapter, as Indiana State Organizer, and the National VP of Fur Takers of America. I am a life memeber of that Organization. I have and do continue to support trapping and hunting in several states each year.
I dont know how you made the jump from my statements saying I believe that predators should be controlled, to me believing in "game farms"??? I indicated no such thing.
I do believe that trapping IS the best means of predator control. Traps, snares, Getters, and under the right cercumstances, airiel gunning. The problem is we have only the airiel gunning taking place here and only on a very limited basis and for darn sure AT THE WRONG TIME OF YEAR to do any good. So, we still have skyrocketing numbers of coyotes. Also, I havent met a rancher yet that would say no to me hunting a few coyotes. Uusally just the opposite. I have them begging me to come hunt lions and coyotes from all over the state. Literally!
I am not promoteing "Govt" running the predator control program. Any time they get involved things go to you know where. I believe that "private" run control programs can and will be more effecient,practical, and far less expensive to run. When it gets run like a business, instead of the way Govt runs things(a beurocracy), it can and does work even on a statewide scale.
The biggest problem with state G&F depts., is exacally what you stated, they will not stand up to the anti's. they think(wrongly) they can appease these people and they just cant. It is not the anti's that are supporting and paying their wages. But for some reason, they think they do! It is very simple really, they just need to get some gonads and tell these people that it is sound wildlife management practices that determines animal welfare, control of both predator and prey numbers, and that some Hollywood elitest just does not understand how these things work! Who has the most knowledge on the subject, G&F or these left wing socialists? This is why AZ lost trapping. G&F would not stand up to these types, and they did a poor job of educateing the public. It's too bad too. Maybe some of the problem is that many G&F dept's are made of the the anti types! It is running rampet here. The US Forest Service is going the same route.
I beileve you are taking what I said wrong. I DO believe in Balance. The Good Book also teaches that as well. Balance in all that we do. Wheather it be in our drinking, eating, or in our wildlife management. Right now, it is out of balance. Just my thoughts and
FWIW
Steve
NASA
New member
Very well said, Steve. And your concern that, "Maybe some of the problem is that many G&F dept's are made (up) of the the anti types!", is more accurate than you may imagine. Infiltration by the Anti's has been going on for the past decade. I have a cousin in the CA DFG who is a hunter. He is considered archaic and obsolete by his newer and younger colleagues who would "never" kill an animal for "sport". This is what is happening all across the nation. Instead of banging on pots out in the woods on opening day, they got smart. They went to work for the agency that regulates our activity. After 10 yrs. or so, they can now influence, regulate, and even control our hunting.
The next obvious step in their long term agenda is to ban hunting alltogether. It won't happen all at once. They will cut away our privileges a small piece at a time, again and again, until there is nothing left. And the majority of hunters affected will placidly stand by and watch it happen.
The next obvious step in their long term agenda is to ban hunting alltogether. It won't happen all at once. They will cut away our privileges a small piece at a time, again and again, until there is nothing left. And the majority of hunters affected will placidly stand by and watch it happen.
Curt Barrett
New member
Good stuff by all. I can relate with what both Steve and Mike and howler said. Here in WA we are experiencing "Californication" on a grand scale and let me tell you it sucks. The game dept. is a joke these days. The only thing on their mind is how to squeeze some more money out of the any outdoorsman any way they can. Whether shooting squirrels or picking mushrooms, they want in your pocket. They used to be a respected entity but now are basically bunny huggers in disguise that sat on there hands and watched the state stripped of most of it's predator control tools. A large percentage of the folks that call me with an animal complaint are people that probably voted to ban trapping and have moved here from the city and bought themselves a little 5 acre patch. Needless to say they don't get much sympathy from me and usually they get a free speech on how their problem could have been avoided with a little common sense at the ballot box. Of course that is rare these days. I try to do what I can to help any locals that are not of this mindset of course but what I can do is still limited now that snares and traps are no longer an option. Only so many will come to the call. They have made it legal to use a rubber jawed traps for predators if you apply for a 30 day permit for each job. But I'm not going to tool up with rubber jawed traps when I already have thousands of dollars of equipment that works in my shop already. And dealing with a permit for each case is a pain too. Now the dept. of F&G charges me for a trapping license each year to keep my NWCO permit valid. Never used to because you were basically performing a service that was their job. Now days most of the F&G guys don't even know how to trap. I didn't get in the NWCO program because I wanted to make money. I did it mainly because I enjoyed trapping and helping some of the residents with animal problems. The way things are now though I am probably just going to let my permit expire and hang up the NWCO thing. More of a headache than it's worth. Let F&Gs phone ring off the hook. To heck with them.
My thoughts on fawn mortality are probably gong to piss some folks off. Not my intention so I will apologize in advance. I'm only relaying how this applies to my area. We have an over population of deer. Frankly, I wish the coyotes would eat a lot more fawns around here. I dislike the deer more than the coyotes to be honest. They are at the top of my list of nuisance wildlife. Between them stripping my shrubs, eating the flowers and any other plant they find tasty and their habit of stepping out of the roadside brush to keep the local body shop in business, I'm considering taking up aerial gunning of deer. The coyotes give me very little grief other than thinning out my wife's cats every year and that makes them a hero in my eyes. LOL! The only thing that is exciting about seeing a deer around here is when it is coming through your windshield. The coyotes have done a piss poor job of thinning the deer herd in my area.
Other places around here the coyotes do get in trouble. Especially the sheep ranches. Still, if I honestly thought that the deer here were going to see a significant decrease in population, I'd probably quit hunting the coyotes. A few deer go a long ways for me. We have a ton of coyotes yet I have a herd of does grazing my yard daily in addition to their county wide suicide attempts in front of my vehicle every morning. If anyone has a live trap for deer out there, they are welcome to come to my place and do some deer re-locating. LOL!
Good hunting
My thoughts on fawn mortality are probably gong to piss some folks off. Not my intention so I will apologize in advance. I'm only relaying how this applies to my area. We have an over population of deer. Frankly, I wish the coyotes would eat a lot more fawns around here. I dislike the deer more than the coyotes to be honest. They are at the top of my list of nuisance wildlife. Between them stripping my shrubs, eating the flowers and any other plant they find tasty and their habit of stepping out of the roadside brush to keep the local body shop in business, I'm considering taking up aerial gunning of deer. The coyotes give me very little grief other than thinning out my wife's cats every year and that makes them a hero in my eyes. LOL! The only thing that is exciting about seeing a deer around here is when it is coming through your windshield. The coyotes have done a piss poor job of thinning the deer herd in my area.
Other places around here the coyotes do get in trouble. Especially the sheep ranches. Still, if I honestly thought that the deer here were going to see a significant decrease in population, I'd probably quit hunting the coyotes. A few deer go a long ways for me. We have a ton of coyotes yet I have a herd of does grazing my yard daily in addition to their county wide suicide attempts in front of my vehicle every morning. If anyone has a live trap for deer out there, they are welcome to come to my place and do some deer re-locating. LOL!
Good hunting
mikegranger
Well-known member
Everyone, thanks for keeping this discussion civil and on track. Lot's of good points of view here. That's what I love about this board. We all have something to contribute with our own personal experiences forming our opinions.
Nasa, you are so right. Most of you know I work for the USFWS. When I came in, almost everyone was a hunter who went to college to study Wildlife Mgmt. That is not the case anymore. I venture to say less than 50 % of our new employees hunt and the number may actually be a lot lower. One thing is for certain, these will be the people making decisions in the future. It's rather sobering for me, knowing folks who have no desire to hunt and really have no use for hunters will be in charge in the not too distant future. It's happening all over the country.
Another case in point, I had the local State Representitive over for coffee lastnight. We talked for two hours on issues I feel will be another nail in the coffin if passed. Our state game and fish departments continue to raise the cost of licences, adding more restrictions and generally making it very difficult for the average individual to take up or continue hunting. The day is not too distant where only us die-hards will continue. When we are gone, it's over. Kids nowadays have way too many other things to occupy thier time. Ask 100 teenage boys whether they would rather play Halo or go hunting. I bet 98 of them would rather play the video game. That scares me!!
I could ramble on and on but won't
Curt. I feel the same way about deer. In the 13 years we've lived in Montana, 12 deer have been hit by my family with a vehicle. That hurts!!
Nasa, you are so right. Most of you know I work for the USFWS. When I came in, almost everyone was a hunter who went to college to study Wildlife Mgmt. That is not the case anymore. I venture to say less than 50 % of our new employees hunt and the number may actually be a lot lower. One thing is for certain, these will be the people making decisions in the future. It's rather sobering for me, knowing folks who have no desire to hunt and really have no use for hunters will be in charge in the not too distant future. It's happening all over the country.
Another case in point, I had the local State Representitive over for coffee lastnight. We talked for two hours on issues I feel will be another nail in the coffin if passed. Our state game and fish departments continue to raise the cost of licences, adding more restrictions and generally making it very difficult for the average individual to take up or continue hunting. The day is not too distant where only us die-hards will continue. When we are gone, it's over. Kids nowadays have way too many other things to occupy thier time. Ask 100 teenage boys whether they would rather play Halo or go hunting. I bet 98 of them would rather play the video game. That scares me!!
I could ramble on and on but won't
Curt. I feel the same way about deer. In the 13 years we've lived in Montana, 12 deer have been hit by my family with a vehicle. That hurts!!
Steve Craig
New member
Curt,
Not to worry. Give your state another 5-7 years without trapping, and you will be wondering where all the deer went! You will be wondering where all the coons,coyotes, and fox came from! AND Lions! It is one of the reasons I have been so successful with the calling business. Predator explosions here 7 years ago. I was just blessed to be at the right place at the right time and had the knowledge to do something with it. I would keep your NWCO permit. You will be in huge demand in another 3-5 years. I know guys who are nocking down $100,000 a year doing nusiance trapping of just beaver and coon and a few squirrels! All they do and are turning away work. I know several other trappers who started out in the nusiance business, part time and in a few months went full time and never looked back. Location is everything. Do yourself a favor and get a few of those Softcatch traps and start learning how to use them. There is a learning curve with them, but after you learn the little quirks, they are a wonderful piece of equipment. I can do anything with them that I do with a regular foothold and with better holding capabilities. Most poo-poo them, but have never given them a good look or a chance. I know I did. The Victors are the best right now. J.C. Conners Jake Trap is OK as well, though a little over powered.
Talk about G&F getting into your pocket, take a look at the Bowsite.com and click on the state of AZ and see what Resident AND non-resident license fees will be going up too in the near future. Anywhere from 50-700%!!! All because of USO Outfitters Tallman and ASSociates. Tallman is going from state to state right now trying to do the same thing as they did here. Nevada is desparately trying to stop it before they come in there. This is a crime. But our good friends at the 9th Circut Court of Appeals in San Francisco, made it all possible! If your state only allows a certain percentage of tags for non-residents, look out! You will be next on their list. According to the judge, A state can not do that and must allow non-residents the same percentages as residents. Sooooo..... the only way AZ can now counter this is to raise the price of tags for both non and residents. What a joke. It will coming to a state near you soon. Course maybe Curt and Mike would like that in their state to get rid of all the deer! hehehe
Steve
Not to worry. Give your state another 5-7 years without trapping, and you will be wondering where all the deer went! You will be wondering where all the coons,coyotes, and fox came from! AND Lions! It is one of the reasons I have been so successful with the calling business. Predator explosions here 7 years ago. I was just blessed to be at the right place at the right time and had the knowledge to do something with it. I would keep your NWCO permit. You will be in huge demand in another 3-5 years. I know guys who are nocking down $100,000 a year doing nusiance trapping of just beaver and coon and a few squirrels! All they do and are turning away work. I know several other trappers who started out in the nusiance business, part time and in a few months went full time and never looked back. Location is everything. Do yourself a favor and get a few of those Softcatch traps and start learning how to use them. There is a learning curve with them, but after you learn the little quirks, they are a wonderful piece of equipment. I can do anything with them that I do with a regular foothold and with better holding capabilities. Most poo-poo them, but have never given them a good look or a chance. I know I did. The Victors are the best right now. J.C. Conners Jake Trap is OK as well, though a little over powered.
Talk about G&F getting into your pocket, take a look at the Bowsite.com and click on the state of AZ and see what Resident AND non-resident license fees will be going up too in the near future. Anywhere from 50-700%!!! All because of USO Outfitters Tallman and ASSociates. Tallman is going from state to state right now trying to do the same thing as they did here. Nevada is desparately trying to stop it before they come in there. This is a crime. But our good friends at the 9th Circut Court of Appeals in San Francisco, made it all possible! If your state only allows a certain percentage of tags for non-residents, look out! You will be next on their list. According to the judge, A state can not do that and must allow non-residents the same percentages as residents. Sooooo..... the only way AZ can now counter this is to raise the price of tags for both non and residents. What a joke. It will coming to a state near you soon. Course maybe Curt and Mike would like that in their state to get rid of all the deer! hehehe
Steve
Curt Barrett
New member
I know how you feel Mike. In the past my wife and I had been trading off every couple years hitting deer. I'm on a roll though. Going on three years without hitting one. My body shop guy really misses me. LOL! Not a week goes by that at least once I don't send my lunch bucket and coffee thermos onto the floorboards slamming the brakes on though. I always joke about putting one of those cattle guard things they used to put on trains, on the front of my truck. ha ha
Yeah Steve, you are probably right. We are definitely seeing a rise in predators. As you said, there has been many more cougar sightings than we ever had. By the way, I read your article in Predator Hunting. I really enjoyed it.
I think I will hang on to the NWCO permit. Might give the soft catch a try I guess. Hate to see all my equipment rusting in the shop like that though. I don't think I will ever see the profits that the NWCOs near high population areas see. These rural folk are only willing to pay so much. A lot of the time I just trade for land access if they have a large ranch. Beavers are becoming a huge problem too. I used to only charge $25 per beaver. Guys near high population areas get $150 or much more per beaver. That is one critter I think people would pay more to see less of. They did start allowing us to use conis again this year. No snares or footholds still though. And they did switch to online catch reports which will be a big improvement as far as convenience goes. I will check around for some of those Victors and give them a try. What the heck. It's just money and some trapping is better than none I guess. LOL!
Regarding the resident/non resident thing, man I hope we don't see that. Heck it's rare to run into anyone that is actually from here while hunting already. Deer season is insane. Between people coming from the high population areas of the state and non-resident hunters, it gets pretty congested. Problem is they are forced to hunt what little public land is available (which isn't where the deer over population problem is) or shoot from the road wherever they please, which many do. There is some gated areas that access huge chunks of timberland but most of these guys won't get more than 400 yards from their truck. ha ha Hopefully those cougars will become abundant enough to put a dent in the deer instead. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Good hunting, Curt
Yeah Steve, you are probably right. We are definitely seeing a rise in predators. As you said, there has been many more cougar sightings than we ever had. By the way, I read your article in Predator Hunting. I really enjoyed it.
I think I will hang on to the NWCO permit. Might give the soft catch a try I guess. Hate to see all my equipment rusting in the shop like that though. I don't think I will ever see the profits that the NWCOs near high population areas see. These rural folk are only willing to pay so much. A lot of the time I just trade for land access if they have a large ranch. Beavers are becoming a huge problem too. I used to only charge $25 per beaver. Guys near high population areas get $150 or much more per beaver. That is one critter I think people would pay more to see less of. They did start allowing us to use conis again this year. No snares or footholds still though. And they did switch to online catch reports which will be a big improvement as far as convenience goes. I will check around for some of those Victors and give them a try. What the heck. It's just money and some trapping is better than none I guess. LOL!
Regarding the resident/non resident thing, man I hope we don't see that. Heck it's rare to run into anyone that is actually from here while hunting already. Deer season is insane. Between people coming from the high population areas of the state and non-resident hunters, it gets pretty congested. Problem is they are forced to hunt what little public land is available (which isn't where the deer over population problem is) or shoot from the road wherever they please, which many do. There is some gated areas that access huge chunks of timberland but most of these guys won't get more than 400 yards from their truck. ha ha Hopefully those cougars will become abundant enough to put a dent in the deer instead. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Good hunting, Curt
ArizonaArcher
New member
Steve,
Just currious where you got your numbers from for AZ populations. You also mentioned that the gunning from planes and helicopters is done during the wrong time of the year? Breeding season / 2-4 weeks before fawns are born seems logical to me...what is a better time? Thanks
AA
Just currious where you got your numbers from for AZ populations. You also mentioned that the gunning from planes and helicopters is done during the wrong time of the year? Breeding season / 2-4 weeks before fawns are born seems logical to me...what is a better time? Thanks
AA
Steve Craig
New member
AA,
I got my numbers from being out there 8 months out of the year killing him. I have been killing him for 20 years here and in many other states as well. A good friend of mine from Colorado by the name of Major Boddicker has provided me with a lot of my info. The rest of the numbers comes from OTHER western states that DO track their predator populations. Our G&F has absolutlely no idea how many coyotes there are in this state. Why would they, when they believe they do not have a predator problem. I was told this to my face by a so called wildlife bioigist. One of the best studies I saw was from a fellow that tracked coyotes and mule deer here in AZ for almost 40years. He did it on hiis own time and his findings were right on. All through the 60's and early 70's mule deer numbers were at all time highs here. Coyote numbers were very low due to the use of compound 1080. With it ban in 73, coyote numbers rose and mule deer numbers sank untill the late 70's and early 80's. Why? Because fur prices shot through the roof and everyone was trapping, calling coyotes for their hides. Again coyote numbers went down and mule deer numbers went up. In 87 the fur market went belly up and that was the beginning of the end for our mule deer to this date. The ban on trapping here in 94 put the last nail in the coffin for our herds, and it has nbeen a steady decline ever sinse, and coyotes,bobcats and foxes, and lions numbers are at all time highs here. Unless trapping is brought back we can expect things to get worse. One thing for sure though. It has been a blessing for my business and many of the Wildlife Service people in the larger cities. Somebody has to remove the problem critters. Might as well be me and i can make a few bucks doing what i love in the process.
The best time to gun coyotes is in Mid Feb. The bulk of the females are Bred and there is (usually) a very good cover of snow on the ground. You can kill two or three times as many coyotes, and you will really hurt the population in that area. The problem comes from not having a plan "B" to make sure that the coyotes do not fill back in. Because they will and very quickly. This must be an all out trapping,snaring, denning and calling type of deal to keep their numbers in check untill your herds have a chance to come back. Then a continued control program to keep their numbers stable from then on. But alas, we cant trap, can we? So we are hamstrung from the get go. And now we are paying the price and so is G&F for their short sightedness. Your 2 to 4 weeks before fawns are born is too late. The pups have already dropped and even if you kill the adults, the other family members will raise them at that point. I have seen dry females start lactating and continue nursing those pups. I have seen the grandparents raise them too.
Steve
I got my numbers from being out there 8 months out of the year killing him. I have been killing him for 20 years here and in many other states as well. A good friend of mine from Colorado by the name of Major Boddicker has provided me with a lot of my info. The rest of the numbers comes from OTHER western states that DO track their predator populations. Our G&F has absolutlely no idea how many coyotes there are in this state. Why would they, when they believe they do not have a predator problem. I was told this to my face by a so called wildlife bioigist. One of the best studies I saw was from a fellow that tracked coyotes and mule deer here in AZ for almost 40years. He did it on hiis own time and his findings were right on. All through the 60's and early 70's mule deer numbers were at all time highs here. Coyote numbers were very low due to the use of compound 1080. With it ban in 73, coyote numbers rose and mule deer numbers sank untill the late 70's and early 80's. Why? Because fur prices shot through the roof and everyone was trapping, calling coyotes for their hides. Again coyote numbers went down and mule deer numbers went up. In 87 the fur market went belly up and that was the beginning of the end for our mule deer to this date. The ban on trapping here in 94 put the last nail in the coffin for our herds, and it has nbeen a steady decline ever sinse, and coyotes,bobcats and foxes, and lions numbers are at all time highs here. Unless trapping is brought back we can expect things to get worse. One thing for sure though. It has been a blessing for my business and many of the Wildlife Service people in the larger cities. Somebody has to remove the problem critters. Might as well be me and i can make a few bucks doing what i love in the process.
The best time to gun coyotes is in Mid Feb. The bulk of the females are Bred and there is (usually) a very good cover of snow on the ground. You can kill two or three times as many coyotes, and you will really hurt the population in that area. The problem comes from not having a plan "B" to make sure that the coyotes do not fill back in. Because they will and very quickly. This must be an all out trapping,snaring, denning and calling type of deal to keep their numbers in check untill your herds have a chance to come back. Then a continued control program to keep their numbers stable from then on. But alas, we cant trap, can we? So we are hamstrung from the get go. And now we are paying the price and so is G&F for their short sightedness. Your 2 to 4 weeks before fawns are born is too late. The pups have already dropped and even if you kill the adults, the other family members will raise them at that point. I have seen dry females start lactating and continue nursing those pups. I have seen the grandparents raise them too.
Steve
ArizonaArcher
New member
Very intresting. Thanks. However I feel that the mismanagemnt of our game herds (with the exception of elk) is larger than just predator control.
Steve Craig
New member
AA,
You just made my point. POOR MANAGEMENT to say the least. G&F just found out in their latest concluded study that showed that their premise of drought, and habitat loss was the problem with the deer herds. They found that drought was NOT the problem, but PREDATORS were.
If the bred female coyote is dead in Feb. you will have NO PUPS and thereby NO PREDATORS for those fawns to deal with when they drop. This is the way other western states that have a predator control program do it.
Another problem is just as you stated. The ESTIMATED lion numbers is way off in my opinion. I believe they are much higher. G&F doesnt have a clue to the real numbers. You can not work any program with estimated numbers. Your statement about the number of deer a lion kills per week is off as well. Under normal conditions that is the case. We are not normal here! The coyote is causing the lion to kill more deer. Lion kills a deer and comes back the next day to feed on it and it is gone! A pair of coyotes will clean up that kill in hours. Thus causing the lion to kill more than a deer per week.
Colorado just lost trapping a couple years ago. They will not feel the predator impact for a few more years, but believe me they will feel it soon. It is just starting there just as it took a few years here after trapping was lost in 94.
The reason there is over hunting of deer in those units, and why the deer are not there is because of predators in the first place, and G&F doesn't think they have a predator problem. So license's are not adjusted in time, and what few deer are left get whacked by both 2 and 4 legged predators.
I'm not saying that we should go from one ditch to the other with predator control. That is what happened on the Kiabab and that mentality is not what to do. But we do need it on a balanced scale, and we need it state wide. Right now we have NO predator control. This is obvious as all these problems are beginning to raise their head and it is going to get worse if nothing is done.
Steve
You just made my point. POOR MANAGEMENT to say the least. G&F just found out in their latest concluded study that showed that their premise of drought, and habitat loss was the problem with the deer herds. They found that drought was NOT the problem, but PREDATORS were.
If the bred female coyote is dead in Feb. you will have NO PUPS and thereby NO PREDATORS for those fawns to deal with when they drop. This is the way other western states that have a predator control program do it.
Another problem is just as you stated. The ESTIMATED lion numbers is way off in my opinion. I believe they are much higher. G&F doesnt have a clue to the real numbers. You can not work any program with estimated numbers. Your statement about the number of deer a lion kills per week is off as well. Under normal conditions that is the case. We are not normal here! The coyote is causing the lion to kill more deer. Lion kills a deer and comes back the next day to feed on it and it is gone! A pair of coyotes will clean up that kill in hours. Thus causing the lion to kill more than a deer per week.
Colorado just lost trapping a couple years ago. They will not feel the predator impact for a few more years, but believe me they will feel it soon. It is just starting there just as it took a few years here after trapping was lost in 94.
The reason there is over hunting of deer in those units, and why the deer are not there is because of predators in the first place, and G&F doesn't think they have a predator problem. So license's are not adjusted in time, and what few deer are left get whacked by both 2 and 4 legged predators.
I'm not saying that we should go from one ditch to the other with predator control. That is what happened on the Kiabab and that mentality is not what to do. But we do need it on a balanced scale, and we need it state wide. Right now we have NO predator control. This is obvious as all these problems are beginning to raise their head and it is going to get worse if nothing is done.
Steve
MONTANA HUNTER
New member
Hi,
Just reading this thread and thought about this last election. I am proud to say that my state passed an amendment to our Montana Contitution recognizing and preserving the heritage of Montana Residents to harvest fish and wild game. I hate to hear about trapping bans, hunting bans etc. I think this preventative amendment should send a signal to all anti's "Montanans' are on the offensive and your Anti-ideology will not be welcome here, and Montana is not the state for you!" I get upset thinking about this because hunting is so much a part of my life. I am sure all of those members here feel the same way. I was reading an excellent book titled "Rifle in Hand" America's hunting heritage, and it opened my eyes about where our hunting heritage comes from. I can not imagine the future in which hunting is no longer part of our lives. I hope I never live to see that day. Thanks Montana Hunter
Just reading this thread and thought about this last election. I am proud to say that my state passed an amendment to our Montana Contitution recognizing and preserving the heritage of Montana Residents to harvest fish and wild game. I hate to hear about trapping bans, hunting bans etc. I think this preventative amendment should send a signal to all anti's "Montanans' are on the offensive and your Anti-ideology will not be welcome here, and Montana is not the state for you!" I get upset thinking about this because hunting is so much a part of my life. I am sure all of those members here feel the same way. I was reading an excellent book titled "Rifle in Hand" America's hunting heritage, and it opened my eyes about where our hunting heritage comes from. I can not imagine the future in which hunting is no longer part of our lives. I hope I never live to see that day. Thanks Montana Hunter
Lungbuster
New member
I couldn't find any population numbers for Pa, but I did find some harvest statistics on the Game Commision web site:
2001= 12,363 coyotes harvested
2002= 11,444 coyotes harvested
2003= 11,500 coyotes harvested
What percentage of the population is killed by hunters in Pa, do you think?
2001= 12,363 coyotes harvested
2002= 11,444 coyotes harvested
2003= 11,500 coyotes harvested
What percentage of the population is killed by hunters in Pa, do you think?