Danger to dogs question

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Weasel-UT

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I know hog dogs take a beating and many hunters even carry a stapler to patch up their dogs after a catch, but how do other animals rate as far as danger to the dog(s)?
Bear
Mtn. Lion
Coon
Bobcat
coyote

I've heard of coons drowning dogs when they get them in water. I've heard and seen coyotes double teaming a lone dog. I imagine that mtn. lions and bears could do a job on a dog or dogs. Anybody have ideas, thoughts, stats or experience regarding danger of the dogs getting hurt while hunting various game animals?
 
One thing to remember in most cases. In the animal kingdom, weight usually determines which animal will most likely take another. Whatever you are hunting, I suggest you take as many dogs as it would take to kill that animal. So, if you were going after a 100lbs Mountain lion, I suggest taking as many dogs as it takes to equal a weight advantage for the dogs.

I have no idea what the norm is in the dog hunting world, but, this is knowledge I have gained with wildlife in general and think it would be smart.
 
An adult 30-35lb coyote = 1 very tough determined dog. Thats, willing to take a beating & not stop[alot of Heart]. Until he/she wins.

A "fresh" short ran coyote. Is a blur in a close quarter fight[Buzz-Saw].

Personally, I've never seen a domestic dog fight as fast & furious as a coyote. Especially, a fresh coyote.
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Many moons ago, I killed a 47lb female coyote. She whipped two of our toughest Greyhounds[both big males around 80lbs each]. Female coyote fought them both [1 on 1] No back-up for the dogs.

1st dog/coyote fight, was after the coyote ran 1/2 mile est[pushed out of a timber patch by our trailhound. Then she ran another 1/2 mile est. & fought the other dog. She whipped them both. They were tough & couragous dogs. She was just to much for them alone.

Rate: If I were a "smart" dog. I would let my canine cohorts work on the toothy end /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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My experience is that the dog has a pretty good idea what it is capable of and wont tackle what it cant handle. of course there are exceptional hounds that think they can do it all, and often can, but sport a passle of scars to show for it. I only run yotes but would have to imagine a dog with to much grit could wind up in a bad way with a cat or a bear.
 
I've always thought I would be most impressed with hound hunting if it were a one on one situation. I'm interested in it, but honestly my "turn off" is seeing six hounds twice the size of a coyote "stretching" it. Especially knowing several of those hounds are very fresh and rested. The coyote on the other hand has been run hard beforehand and worn down by other dogs before the end of the run, then bayed up, and the final fight. I'm really trying to not form an opinon and keep an open mind. But that's hard to do when you see a gang fight of larger hounds against a single tired coyote. That gives me greater respect than ever for the coyote. I guess that's my personal hang up and I'm trying to understand the situation better. I know I would really like to see one single hound run a coyote to bay and then fight that coyote one on one. That would be impressive!
 
Some current hound hunters might have better answers, but I grew up hunting with hounds and got some experience with some of these critters. I've held the light on dogs and coon in a big river and watched the coon climb on top and hold the dog under as the current swept them downriver. Every piece of dog that came up the coon pushed under. We had two hounds that could each handle any coon in the water by himself, but had more that couldn't. A coon isn't much of a fighter compared to a good hound on dry ground but water is his element.

My dad always figured bobcats were the most dangerous, as they seemed smaller and most hounds would jump on them. The cat would roll on its back, grab the dog by the head or ears with its front paws while its hind claws were going like a buzz saw on the dog's belly. Knew of two dogs killed that way.

Interestingly to me, some dogs flat out won't run a bear, including some hounds. One whiff and even if they have never seen a bear, they know that the critter on the other end is bad news, and they refuse to run it.

We never ran bears and rarely cougars. We lost contact with the dogs one time when they ran a cougar into a vast 30 mile system of deep canyons with no roads near. We hiked, drove to vantage points and hiked more, never heard them. Several days later the lead dog brought all but one home. He was so hoarse he was silent, ears and one shoulder cut a bit. They had bayed up that cat on a ledge or under a rock overhang somewhere, no trees in that country. They kept him there faithfully till all parties got pretty hungry, waiting for us to come and shoot the cat. Never knew for sure what happened to the dog that never came home.

We never ran coyotes and broke our hounds from running them. Hounds that ran coyotes were spcialized. Coyotes slash and jump, very quick. One coyote hunter had a big airdale cross just for killing. The rest would catch the yote and when the fighting dog got there he just waded in, igoring slashes and bit a big chunk of coyote wherever he came to it and it was over.

Most good fighting hounds in those days anyway were pretty dumb. They thought that they could lick anything and it got them killed, but the aggressivness made them good hunters. We had one smart hound that would feint and weave and set up an animal for a neck or throat killing hold without getting himself all cut up. He was the best cold trail hound I've ever heard of, and Dad's favorite though Dad always said he was too cautious to be a top notch fighting hound. He killed a bobcat solo as a yearling and brought giant boar coons out of big swift water. And he fought smart enough to die of old age lying on hay in the barn, with ears a bit tattered and face scarred. I got him when I was a year old and he died when I was 18. We hunted him solo a lot for coons.

 
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I too say a bobcat would be the toughest fight for a hound, or at least of the smaller game variety. I have no experience with Mt. Lions or bears. Just like Okanagan said, a bobcat will lay on his back and use his paws to just shread the bottom of a hound. I've never had this happen but heard of it.
Mose hounds the better and I'll tell you why CG 2 reasons...
1. Less of a chance that a hound will get hurt if there is help.
2. For the "quick-clean kill" guys, a 1-on-1 matchup will inflict several more minutes of pain on the coyote plus hound. With 5-6 good hounds, once they latch on its over. So the kill will happen just as fast as any gun shot.

Some coyotes are meaner than others, normally depends on age and size. Male and female normally doesn't have much to do with it, but if anything females fight just a little harder.
I've seen coons put up good fights to, and for their size they do it really well. I've had on occasion my hounds catch a coon or two, I absolutly hate it. Buts its normally only in the summer when I run at night and early mornings. But they normally do a good job holding my hounds back.
Anyway I'm out! See ya, MOyotehunter
 
Years ago, circa; 1971. We were after coyotes down over by Rhodes, Iowa.
We had our sighthounds & two trailhounds. Both trailhounds were good trackers & had big Hearts.

We turned them loose on a fresh coyote track in a large section. We kept circling the section looking for the push out. Around an hour or so later. Here they came running the ridgeline about a city block out.

They were right on the tail[literally], of a nomad wolf. We couldn't believe what we were seeing[NO, wolves in Iowa]. Wolf was very large. We took our guns & hurried out to back them up.

Took us 10 minutes or so to cross a couple deep snow drifted ravines. When we cleared that ridge. Both hounds were coming towards us very slowly, exhausted, & beat up bad. The wolf was gone.

One of our hounds was a 110lb male Black & Tan. The other a large male Walker. Both were tough as nails & would wade right in.

No match for this wolf.
 
I'm learning... I think. The quick kill does make sense to me. On the outside it doesn't seem "fair" but then I guess one dog couldn't get it all done and there'd be a bloodbath on the end of the race. Would there even be a race with only one dog doing the running? You dog guys praise your hounds, but man, what about those coyotes! I understand your pride in your dogs and all the work involved in raising and training them. However, pound for pound for pure toughness, running a race and then fighting off a pack of much larger hounds, I have more and more respect for the coyotes grit. BTW, us Missouri boys finally have some cold weather now for coyote hunting! The coyotes were howling here last night. Look out... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Edited to ask: What about hogs? No hog dog guys here? I hear an old boar is pretty tough on a dog too.
 
i have talked to a guy in cali that runs dogs on hogs. he says they are very mean to the dogs. he now uses bulldogs for the hogs they are shorter and meaner than most hounds so when they catch one they can hold it and finish it off. he usually runs 3 bulldogs and one pit/bull mix. he use to run bmc and kemmer cur dogs but the bulldogs do a better and faster job on the hogs!!
 
I've known a few hog hunters over the years. Their dogs were usually scarred pretty bad, especially the catch dogs. Many of their dogs were gutted and killed by hogs. On the other hand I've heard of a hog hunter losing a finger to a hog and another guy had his calf muscle separated from his leg bone. Those hogs are tough! The reason I started this thread was to find out how hard other animals were on dogs.
 
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Would there even be a race with only one dog doing the running?




Very few domestic dogs could be considered a 1 on 1 equal to a coyote. Their stamina and running ability are unmatched. That's one of the reasons for multiple dogs in the chase. The dogs change lead often in order to rest. Fresh dogs are periodically added to the chase to keep the coyote from outdistancing the pack. The dogs often get off on a fresh track made by a different (fresh) coyote, and can be quickly left behind.

But even after all that running, a bayed coyote still has enough grit to put the hurt on a few hounds before he gives up the ghost.
 
My hounds run them to the gun. They won't fight. I'd rather they keep em circling and get a shot at em.
We're not interested in the fight.
They aren't all bread to get in to kill it.
 
Nasa your kinda right about the 1 on 1 chase although today we had one that lasted 4 or 5 hours and the first dog down was on his heals 10 min before he expired. If we would have let it go I have no doubt in my mind she would have cought him. Most dont have the stamina for a 5 hour chase but some do. BTW the female was moving much faster than that yote she was closing fast.
 
I think it was an interesting observation that the female coyote tends to fight harder than the male. Not what I expected at all.

Regarding hog dogs, I've seen the special kevlar vest they hook those dogs up with to help protect them. I don't guess a bear or cat dog would benefit from one of them?
 
My wife's grandfather had a huge Blackmouth cur that would tackle anything going.I'd seen that dog take on a coyote many times and he always came out on top.But one day we were picking corn and I saw that dog take out across the field after what we thought was a coon.Wrong,it was a big old boar badger and he flat kicked that dogs butt.If I hadn't got a gun and killed it I think it might have killed that dog.The dog wasn't afraid,but everytime he grabbed that badger across the back,the badger would turn in it's hide and cut and bite the dickens out of that dog.I don't remember how many stichtes it took 'but that pretty much took the wind outta his sails after that.
 
GC, I would say the vest work well on the hog dogs because they don't have to travel the distance a bear or cat dog would. After a 4-5 mile chase that vest would just be something to wear the hound out quicker. Thats just my opinion though.

Nasa makes a good point about switching coyotes. There may be a time where the coyote you're running crosses the path of another coyote and the hounds switch, now you have tired hounds on a fresh coyote. Then the obsticles like deer or fences that would cause one hound to get farther behind. And all that said, trail hounds are pack hounds just like beagles. I know you are familiar with Beagles. What really makes a better race about 3 good beagles, or just one? Same with coyote hounds, they run better as a pack. Plus the other hounds help push each other. Kinda like a competion for each hound, they each want the front, so they run harder to try to be that lead dog. Thus the race is faster. Plus if the coyote makes a turn and the hounds loose the track for a minute there's 3 noses there to find it instead of just one. Thats another reason why running more hounds is better.
See ya, MO
 
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An adult 30-35lb coyote = 1 very tough determined dog. Thats, willing to take a beating & not stop[alot of Heart]. Until he/she wins.

A "fresh" short ran coyote. Is a blur in a close quarter fight[Buzz-Saw].

Personally, I've never seen a domestic dog fight as fast & furious as a coyote. Especially, a fresh coyote.



I guess you have never seen a well bred American Pitbull Terrier or an American Bulldog from hog catching lines in action. Either one would absolutely DESTROY even the biggest of Coyotes.
I also disagree with your theory on a coyote or any other wild animals ability to fight with heart and not quit until they win. Wild animals only fight for one of a few reasons. Those would be Breeding rights, Food, territory, and self defense. In most all of these cases, the fights are pretty short lived, once one of the combatants realizes he is over matched.

In the case of self defense...say from a domestic dog, the animals will usually only fight long enough to gain an advantage in flight. First chance it has to escape, it's going to turn tail and run. That's probably the best survival instinct any wild animal can have..it's instinct to run from danger. There are some truly incredible, much lesser known breeds, that are game tested and bred for either canine combat or hunting combat.

Breeds like I mentioned, as well as the Presa Canario, the Dogo Argentino, The Fila Brasilleo, Cane Corso, The Tosa inu, etc. Some of these breeds can also track/course the game, yet still maintain the energy to fight and kill the quarry once the chase is over. The majority of these breeds are extremely rugged and bring biting power like a steel bear trap to the fight. I have seen dog's literally break bones of other dog's, with one bite...a bite that they will ONLY relinquish, to get a better bite/hold. (unless you either kill them or pry their jaw's apart with a breaking stick)

Add the fact that these breeds were bred for centuries (in some cases) to be "Dead Game", (to never, ever quit) and you have one hell of a warrior on your hands. A well bred version of any of these breeds would rather participate in combat than eat. Trust me when I tell you...A yote wouldn't stand a chance.

Go watch Jay Dorsey's "trophy hunter's lodge" Hog hunting vid. They use American Bulldog's as catch dogs for the hunter's who wish to kill a hog with only a knife. You will be amazed at how a dog can run in and grab a WILD Razorback by the head and make it scream from the power of it's bite...then shake it like a rag doll, all the while holding it and NEVER letting it go, so the hunter is SAFE from the tusks while he knife's it.
I actually think a Yote would be a joke for any of these breeds. I can picture ONE BITE and a crushed skull or broken bones crunching. The yotes best chance is to give the dog mange or rabies.
 
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