Firearms in gereral, how do they compare to weapons of yesteryear ?

I

iowa roger

New member
In a conversation with a fellow hunter and gun enthusiast, we were talking about the weapons of todays ability to make the longer range shots more easily.
He said he believed it was due to the better made rifles and ammunition now.
I recall see the old buffalo hunters with the 50 caliber Sharps making kills from extreme distances.
Was this just in books and movies,we see B & W photos of wagon loads of hides taken for animals taken with these big weapons.
From what I can gather, it seems to me that modern day optics have played a big role in the extended range of shooting.
It seems that the ability to find what combination of powder and projectile each individual gun shoots most accurate has gone a long way to help in accuracy.
I am interested to hear other folks take on this subject.

Thanks for reading.








 
I'd say first that nobody talks about how many of those buffalo were wounded and left to wander around till shock or blood loss killed them. Becuz they COULD kill them at long range, doesn't mean they ALL just fell over at the shot - hunter ethics really didn't exist for many folks then - "just keep shooting, there's millions of them....".

That said, I think you're seeing a push for relatively accurate, and very affordable rifles for the common man due to the economic downturn. Ammo the same. Guys still want new guns that shoot well, but don't by and large have the excess cash around lately to keep on buying. Savage started it off, and everyone else has been playing catch-up. Similar to the introduction of guns like the Rem 788 in the 70's.

I also think that due to changes in technology (CNC's everywhere, etc.) precision in manufacturing is cheaper and more repeatable day in and day out. Whether or not the bean counters of a given company push the precision aspect is a whole 'nother subject.
 
Yep , same hunting style is used by some today. Launch a piece of lead at a far hillside and hope you find a bloodtrail eventually. As long as something eventually dies, food. Even then id guess that bullets not exactly falling from the sky, they probably got pretty close before they pulled the trigger.

And to get wagonloads of hides you stampede them off a cliff or into a box canyon so you can slaughter. Youre not going with 1 a day and a couple days tracking the herd for the next.

Fwiw the best ww2 sniper rifles shot groups 3-4 times larger than a budget rifle at wallyworld.
 
I have some guns that are over a hundred years old that were "better made" than 90% of what I see on selves today. Besides the HUGE improvements in optics, I believe that the availability and ease of access we have to information and knowledge today plays a big part. You want to know what your dop is? Look on line. What twist rate is best with what? Right at our finger tips. I also think we probably have more time (in general) for our hobbies than the average person would have had back then.
 
Originally Posted By: Mike B
I'd say first that nobody talks about how many of those buffalo were wounded and left to wander around till shock or blood loss killed them. Becuz they COULD kill them at long range, doesn't mean they ALL just fell over at the shot - hunter ethics really didn't exist for many folks then - "just keep shooting, there's millions of them....".

That said...



Your history on buffalo hunting/shooting is off a bit. It was not sport hunting as we know it today, it was market hunting for the hides to be sold back east, and it was shooting to eliminate the main source of food for the plains Indians, so they would be starved - if the hides had no value, then the buffalo would have been shot and left to rot with their hides still on.

So being wounded and left to wander until blood loss killed them, was of no concern to the shooters.

 
The weapons of today are far superior to the ones of yesterday. Even 30 years ago.

Look at a loading book from the 60's and see what kind of grouping and speeds they were getting from their cast bullets.
We get picky and think that our hand loads are not what they should be if they are bigger that 1MOA and I personally keep at it until my factory $500 gun shoots sub.5MOA. Clearly they are better..

But it's never more evident then looking at the fighting going on in the West Bank. The Isrealies are walking though and hammering people using 50s-70's technology vs. todays advancements.

I worked with a tank unit in the Marines in the late 90's, and they were able to easily shoot the "O" out of a "Stop" sign at 4000m with a 120mm barrel the muzzle velocity was 4000fps. Shooting oversized lawn darts with depleated uranium tipped ammunition that sharpened its self as it flew and passed right through the previous generations tanks that didn't stand a chance. The only tank lost in Desert Storm 1 was friendly fire. let that sink in.

They have figured out a way to creat weapon systems for snipers that allow them to shoot 2000m with computer aided sighting systems, lock on target targeting(meaning the gun doesn't fire until the sights are lined up right) and micro computers that take more than a dozen variables into account when setting the aiming point. If you think about the advancements in Night Vision and thermal it's amazing. There was a time that i used the generation 5 nvg and can't wait for it to be affordable and common, it's way better than the other versions. not to mention being able to mount an Infared Laser on a weapon, and nothing can see the laser but a NV wearer. Its almost not fair to use that laser in the dark and point at your target and they have no idea what is about to happen.

I think that these examples really highlight the difference, and in the next ten years we are going to see some release of what they are using now in the military and it's going to be another big step up too.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZThe weapons of today are far superior to the ones of yesterday. Even 30 years ago.

Look at a loading book from the 60's and see what kind of grouping and speeds they were getting from their cast bullets.
We get picky and think that our hand loads are not what they should be if they are bigger that 1MOA and I personally keep at it until my factory $500 gun shoots sub.5MOA. Clearly they are better..


The world record group (0.009") shot in 1972, stood for more than 40 years, until it was broken this year.

Quote:
I worked with a tank unit in the Marines in the late 90's, and they were able to easily shoot the "O" out of a "Stop" sign at 4000m with a 120mm barrel the muzzle velocity was 4000fps.



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love the avitar, very cute. But there are things that are common that some just won't believe. The M1-A1 and now newer models, is so advanced that until you see it in action it is amost impossible to believe it's possible. The shooting systems on it are amazing. but that is just the start. They have to govern that thing to under 60mph for endurance and longevity, because during testing they were able to get them up to 100mph before the 10,000lbs track would fly off. It runs on a Jet motor like the one in the Huey chopper, and uses 8 gallons of fuel to just start it.

There are people we deal with every day that are so Technology retarded their VCR still blinks 12:00. (because they don't know how to set it) You know the ones.. They only type with their bugger pickers and let the other 8 take a break.

They can hang onto the past and dream of when it wasn't complicated or when they understood new things, versus taking the time to learn and advance with the change.

I am sure that 30 years ago the same question was asked and some cranky 65+ yr old man was crabbing about how it was better in the old day.
 
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZ

There are people we deal with every day that are so Technology retarded their VCR still blinks 12:00. (because they don't know how to set it) You know the ones.. They only type with their bugger pickers and let the other 8 take a break.




Hey!
I resemble that remark!!
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Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZlove the avitar, very cute. But there are things that are common that some just won't believe. The M1-A1 and now newer models, is so advanced that until you see it in action it is amost impossible to believe it's possible. The shooting systems on it are amazing. but that is just the start. They have to govern that thing to under 60mph for endurance and longevity, because during testing they were able to get them up to 100mph before the 10,000lbs track would fly off. It runs on a Jet motor like the one in the Huey chopper, and uses 8 gallons of fuel to just start it.

There are people we deal with every day that are so Technology retarded their VCR still blinks 12:00. (because they don't know how to set it) You know the ones.. They only type with their bugger pickers and let the other 8 take a break.

They can hang onto the past and dream of when it wasn't complicated or when they understood new things, versus taking the time to learn and advance with the change.

I am sure that 30 years ago the same question was asked and some cranky 65+ yr old man was crabbing about how it was better in the old day.


Sorry, but nothing is punching the "O" out of a stop sign at 2.5 miles.

You remind me of the guy at our range that said he could drop a 4-duce mortar round into an office trash can at 5,000 meters, and got offended when people called him on it.

What you claim is not physically possible.
 
fw707 lol.. good for you. admission is the first step.. lol

Catshooter, if you don't buy it.. That's fine.. I am not trying to sell it. SOF (smile on face)

I guess the point of the post is to ask are things better, and You answered that.. The smallest group was shot this year and it was better than something from 40 years ago.
 
At the time those buffalo hunters with the 50 caliber Sharps could be saying the same thing we are saying about the guns of our yesteryear... The 50 caliber sharps was light years ahead of the atlatl.. Then again the atlatl was not a firearm... Interesting topic to wonder how far advanced our firearms will be in 50 years... If we are still around or back to sticks and stones...
 
Quote: I worked with a tank unit in the Marines in the late 90's, and they were able to easily shoot the "O" out of a "Stop" sign at 4000m with a 120mm barrel the muzzle velocity was 4000fps. Shooting oversized lawn darts with depleated uranium tipped ammunition that sharpened its self as it flew and passed right through the previous generations tanks that didn't stand a chance. The only tank lost in Desert Storm 1 was friendly fire. let that sink in.


Those guys were BS'in you. I didn't work with a tank unit, I was in a tank unit. The Armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot penetrator is made out of depleted uranium, not DU tipped. It has a muzzle velocity of 5000 fps and a maximum effective range of 3000 meters. That is on a tank sized target. Excellent gunners, which I was not, could get first round hits at 2000 meters, on a whole tank. Even hitting the stop sign at 4000 meters would be a heck of a lucky shot.
 
Originally Posted By: steve154 Quote: I worked with a tank unit in the Marines in the late 90's, and they were able to easily shoot the "O" out of a "Stop" sign at 4000m with a 120mm barrel the muzzle velocity was 4000fps. Shooting oversized lawn darts with depleated uranium tipped ammunition that sharpened its self as it flew and passed right through the previous generations tanks that didn't stand a chance. The only tank lost in Desert Storm 1 was friendly fire. let that sink in.


Those guys were BS'in you. I didn't work with a tank unit, I was in a tank unit. The Armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot penetrator is made out of depleted uranium, not DU tipped. It has a muzzle velocity of 5000 fps and a maximum effective range of 3000 meters. That is on a tank sized target. Excellent gunners, which I was not, could get first round hits at 2000 meters, on a whole tank. Even hitting the stop sign at 4000 meters would be a heck of a lucky shot.

Your tank must not have been equipped with an AccuTrigger
 
Originally Posted By: Oregon310Originally Posted By: steve154 Quote: I worked with a tank unit in the Marines in the late 90's, and they were able to easily shoot the "O" out of a "Stop" sign at 4000m with a 120mm barrel the muzzle velocity was 4000fps. Shooting oversized lawn darts with depleated uranium tipped ammunition that sharpened its self as it flew and passed right through the previous generations tanks that didn't stand a chance. The only tank lost in Desert Storm 1 was friendly fire. let that sink in.


Those guys were BS'in you. I didn't work with a tank unit, I was in a tank unit. The Armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot penetrator is made out of depleted uranium, not DU tipped. It has a muzzle velocity of 5000 fps and a maximum effective range of 3000 meters. That is on a tank sized target. Excellent gunners, which I was not, could get first round hits at 2000 meters, on a whole tank. Even hitting the stop sign at 4000 meters would be a heck of a lucky shot.

Your tank must not have been equipped with an AccuTrigger

And accu-stock too
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Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZ

Catshooter, if you don't buy it.. That's fine..

I guess the point of the post is to ask are things better, and You answered that.. The smallest group was shot this year and it was better than something from 40 years ago.

If your point is that it took 40 years to make a group one thousandth of an inch smaller, your point is lame.

Gotta change my waders
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Since Mauser came out with the model 1893 in 7x57 not much has changed.
I would like a laser pistol if you see one for sale.
 
Originally Posted By: willy1947......I would like a laser pistol if you see one for sale.

Unless its chambered in 22-250 right? Everyone knows that the 22-250 is hard to load.
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