Home Defense Shotgun Anyone?
- Thread starter larr
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scotts94_z28
New member
Originally Posted By: GCI really like the KISS method. Adding too many bolt on doo-dads and gee-gaws eventually leads to trouble of some sort. And trouble usually comes at the worst possible moment.
X2 I have a 7 shot 870 police with just the vangcomp big head safety and an xs big dot front sight both of which I highly recommend.
X2 I have a 7 shot 870 police with just the vangcomp big head safety and an xs big dot front sight both of which I highly recommend.
Chupathingy
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claimbuster
New member
Originally Posted By: scotts94_z28Originally Posted By: GCI really like the KISS method. Adding too many bolt on doo-dads and gee-gaws eventually leads to trouble of some sort. And trouble usually comes at the worst possible moment.
X2 I have a 7 shot 870 police with just the vangcomp big head safety and an xs big dot front sight both of which I highly recommend.
X3
X2 I have a 7 shot 870 police with just the vangcomp big head safety and an xs big dot front sight both of which I highly recommend.
X3
viper
Well-known member
Benelli M-1 tactical with a light and pressure switch on/off. I carry #4 buck shot same as I hunt with except I change my tube to cylinder or IC.
Pattern opens up better and I believe you would have a lot more trauma with the #4 buck than 00 Buck in the range you would encounter in a home.
Pattern opens up better and I believe you would have a lot more trauma with the #4 buck than 00 Buck in the range you would encounter in a home.
NdIndy
New member
First credentials then I climb on my soapbox. I was a cop for 10 years, spent more hours gaining certs in SD, advanced whatever, long gun training, expert ratings yada yada yada than you can believe. I lost 1 'quick draw' competition in my career to Ara Maljian, feel free to google him and see his current national ranking in competitive shooting as I don't keep up
I spent much of my adult life clearing buildings, houses, and being alone in the dark with high stress situations than I care to think about. I spent my entire life from 12yoa in training and competitive fighting coupled with extremely fast reaction time and pistol creds which allowed me to leave my pistol in my holster 20x longer than your average cop. AND I wouldn't do that job in a real city.
Now I do real estate
The more garbage you strap to a SD weapon, the less useful it becomes. If you use a flashlight, leave it on long enough to find the lightswitch (it's your house though you should know where it is without one) to level the playing field. If you search with a flashlight you become a target to a hidden enemy. If you flash it on and off, you're still a target but one with screwed up night vision. If I'm the badguy in that situation I will own you in more ways than you can imagine.
A laser is fun and it works both ways. Unless you have a target all a laser does is point back to you making you the target. I will own...
If you plan on using a long gun you have 2 options. Short for clearing, or longer if you plan to sit in a room or at the end of a hallway and set ambush. If you plan to hunt, you want a short AR. Superior magazine capacity and faster follow up shots. If you plan to hunt you MUST know how to handle a fight with someone who has a superior leverage advantage on your rifle. Normal rifle is great for shooting, piss poor if someone grabs it as you clear a corner. And the muzzle will give a handy lever waaaaaay before you clear the corner. I will own...
If you can't hit it with a rifle at close range, you can't hit it with a shotgun at close range. Inside a typical home the average spread from a minimum length shotgun barrel with an open choke is maybe 1-1.5" If that's all that's separating you between a hit and a miss, the hit is useless. A shotgun is no more user friendly for the inexperienced than an AR and you are better off with 30 massive muzzle flashes than with 8.
Out of all the times I ran the action on a shotgun, never once did it change a badguys attitude much less end a fight. Great in movies though.
More than likely a badguy is going to have no training and go off of brute force and intimidation. But there's the chance that he's as skilled as I am. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Having said all that, the AR I used to clear countless buildings sits down in my gun room next to my shotguns that get used for hunting little birds. The only thing I count on for self defense is a glock .40 that I can clear corners with, shoot anywhere from the hip to full extension to 25 yards and doesn't even have a night sight because I can tell from body position that I'm on target from combat distances. In the unlikely circ. that it fails, I can clear it and be back in action 20x faster than I can with any long gun I own.
So back to the original question I'd stop at an extended tube and shorten the shotgun as much as legally possible. Loaded with 00, birdshot is useless on anything other than little birds. If you want to stress about over penetration you shouldn't be using a firearm regardless. Stick to the poo-stick. The poo stick ALWAYS works.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/761807/
Now I do real estate
The more garbage you strap to a SD weapon, the less useful it becomes. If you use a flashlight, leave it on long enough to find the lightswitch (it's your house though you should know where it is without one) to level the playing field. If you search with a flashlight you become a target to a hidden enemy. If you flash it on and off, you're still a target but one with screwed up night vision. If I'm the badguy in that situation I will own you in more ways than you can imagine.
A laser is fun and it works both ways. Unless you have a target all a laser does is point back to you making you the target. I will own...
If you plan on using a long gun you have 2 options. Short for clearing, or longer if you plan to sit in a room or at the end of a hallway and set ambush. If you plan to hunt, you want a short AR. Superior magazine capacity and faster follow up shots. If you plan to hunt you MUST know how to handle a fight with someone who has a superior leverage advantage on your rifle. Normal rifle is great for shooting, piss poor if someone grabs it as you clear a corner. And the muzzle will give a handy lever waaaaaay before you clear the corner. I will own...
If you can't hit it with a rifle at close range, you can't hit it with a shotgun at close range. Inside a typical home the average spread from a minimum length shotgun barrel with an open choke is maybe 1-1.5" If that's all that's separating you between a hit and a miss, the hit is useless. A shotgun is no more user friendly for the inexperienced than an AR and you are better off with 30 massive muzzle flashes than with 8.
Out of all the times I ran the action on a shotgun, never once did it change a badguys attitude much less end a fight. Great in movies though.
More than likely a badguy is going to have no training and go off of brute force and intimidation. But there's the chance that he's as skilled as I am. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Having said all that, the AR I used to clear countless buildings sits down in my gun room next to my shotguns that get used for hunting little birds. The only thing I count on for self defense is a glock .40 that I can clear corners with, shoot anywhere from the hip to full extension to 25 yards and doesn't even have a night sight because I can tell from body position that I'm on target from combat distances. In the unlikely circ. that it fails, I can clear it and be back in action 20x faster than I can with any long gun I own.
So back to the original question I'd stop at an extended tube and shorten the shotgun as much as legally possible. Loaded with 00, birdshot is useless on anything other than little birds. If you want to stress about over penetration you shouldn't be using a firearm regardless. Stick to the poo-stick. The poo stick ALWAYS works.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/761807/
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
With almost 30 years as a LEO and a competitive shooter, I have no problem with a shotgun for self defense and when going into potentially confrontational situations, would carry one on most calls...But, I have been trained and practiced with one in critical situational training..
The one I keep for that purpose is a Winchester 1300 Defender with a eight round tube... That's all, for just the reasons that NDIndy stated above..
I know the inside of my house and the area around it much better than any intruder ever will...I don't need a light to draw attention to my location..If I take the time to remove the modified choke, the cylinder bore will open up the 00 Buck sufficient to clear a hallway the length of my home, with it in, it might take two shots..otherwise I plan on a six inch pattern at most defensive ranges..
My family and friends would never consider entering my home without specific invitation, so anyone else is immediately classified as an intruder...The only neighbor that would ever need to consider entering is the local chief of police and even he would wait an adequate time for me to answer the door before coming in..
The one I keep for that purpose is a Winchester 1300 Defender with a eight round tube... That's all, for just the reasons that NDIndy stated above..
I know the inside of my house and the area around it much better than any intruder ever will...I don't need a light to draw attention to my location..If I take the time to remove the modified choke, the cylinder bore will open up the 00 Buck sufficient to clear a hallway the length of my home, with it in, it might take two shots..otherwise I plan on a six inch pattern at most defensive ranges..
My family and friends would never consider entering my home without specific invitation, so anyone else is immediately classified as an intruder...The only neighbor that would ever need to consider entering is the local chief of police and even he would wait an adequate time for me to answer the door before coming in..
NM_HighPlains
New member
Originally Posted By: NdIndyFirst credentials then I climb on my soapbox.
Advice noted and appreciated!
Advice noted and appreciated!
NdIndy
New member
Taller soapbox here, but ambush is ALWAYS AN OPTION. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you have family, gather them into 1 spot and set an ambush. The odds of winning a hunt even if you know what you're doing are against you. No matter how quiet you think you are, they hear you coming. You owe it to your family to survive and ambush puts the odds in your favor. If you lose the TV, who the [beeep] cares compared to the kids growing up without Dad. I am a natural hunter, and if in that situation I will have to force myself to act contrary to who I am in order to take care of the family.
Don't worry about the lawyer "I shoot to" whatever. You're not trained, you're not professional, you shouldn't fear that argument. Pros are trained to 'neutralize the threat' and otherwise is a loser in civil court. IMO the best neutrilization in the world is the lack of a intact brain. You're protecting your family and that's the end of the story. All the horror story's I've ever read about a bad guy suing and winning have come 100% from liar liar (Jim [beeep] isn't bad in that one).
Shot placement is more important than caliber. Head shots are very fatal, also VERY hard to do. Shooting paper is great, but paper doesn't really care if it gets shot. Your average bad guy really doesn't want shot in the head.
Center mass is a winner for the most part, but an intent bad guy is going to shrug off most center mass hits long enough to do damage or at least continue the fight. Which is why I teach 'combat effective' when it comes to SD. 1" groups are nice, if someone wants to kill you an 8" group is better. I personally want a lung, a kidney, 1/2 the heart, blood vessels etc. I don't want to keep putting rounds into 1 hole that I've already drilled.
The BEST shot placement though is the pelvis. Ask any football coach and they'll tell you to 'watch the hips'. It's the last/hardest to move, gives the best indication of direction etc. You can dodge the head easy, you can dodge the vitals of the body easy, but the hips kind of stay there.
They also house the major support for the entire body. Take the pelvis and the fight stops. No matter how tough the bad guy, no foundation = no movement unless he want to crawl at you. It also houses 2 massive arteries. Ask an ER doc, take those arteries on an operation room table with a full trauma team and you have a dead guy on the table. Bone turns into great shrapnel and the pelvis is full of bone.
/end SD 101.
Don't worry about the lawyer "I shoot to" whatever. You're not trained, you're not professional, you shouldn't fear that argument. Pros are trained to 'neutralize the threat' and otherwise is a loser in civil court. IMO the best neutrilization in the world is the lack of a intact brain. You're protecting your family and that's the end of the story. All the horror story's I've ever read about a bad guy suing and winning have come 100% from liar liar (Jim [beeep] isn't bad in that one).
Shot placement is more important than caliber. Head shots are very fatal, also VERY hard to do. Shooting paper is great, but paper doesn't really care if it gets shot. Your average bad guy really doesn't want shot in the head.
Center mass is a winner for the most part, but an intent bad guy is going to shrug off most center mass hits long enough to do damage or at least continue the fight. Which is why I teach 'combat effective' when it comes to SD. 1" groups are nice, if someone wants to kill you an 8" group is better. I personally want a lung, a kidney, 1/2 the heart, blood vessels etc. I don't want to keep putting rounds into 1 hole that I've already drilled.
The BEST shot placement though is the pelvis. Ask any football coach and they'll tell you to 'watch the hips'. It's the last/hardest to move, gives the best indication of direction etc. You can dodge the head easy, you can dodge the vitals of the body easy, but the hips kind of stay there.
They also house the major support for the entire body. Take the pelvis and the fight stops. No matter how tough the bad guy, no foundation = no movement unless he want to crawl at you. It also houses 2 massive arteries. Ask an ER doc, take those arteries on an operation room table with a full trauma team and you have a dead guy on the table. Bone turns into great shrapnel and the pelvis is full of bone.
/end SD 101.
larr
New member
thanks for all of the info, my 870 already has a 18 1/2 in barrel so I'm fine there. thinking of reduced recoil loads for the little lady of the house,maybe 9 pellet 00 buck. my house is pitch black at night and i was taught to id the target before shooting. if i don't use a light on the 870 maybe night lights in the house will work. light on the gun or night lights either will let the bad guy id me. i will have to do more thinking on that matter
i was thinking pistol grips for the 870 because our house isn't big and its really close also the little lady can handle it better.
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
Quote:I see several mentions 00 buck, why not just bird bird shot? In my case, it was what I was trained with, as well as having seen the effects in various situations...
There have been reported cases where, if someone were wearing heavy clothing or especially heavy leather jackets, the clothing would stop bird shot with little more than blunt force trauma...similar to someone wearing a 'bullet proof' vest..
If I'm ever going to have to pull the trigger on anyone, my intention will be to immediately stop their perceived intended action...
There have been reported cases where, if someone were wearing heavy clothing or especially heavy leather jackets, the clothing would stop bird shot with little more than blunt force trauma...similar to someone wearing a 'bullet proof' vest..
If I'm ever going to have to pull the trigger on anyone, my intention will be to immediately stop their perceived intended action...
Larr,
I have a Mossberg 500 with the folding ATP Stock. I put on the UTG flashlight/laser combo with the thumb activation switch mounted to the left side of the slide handle. Makes for easy target acquisition if you are awaken in the middle of the night by some dumbazz who needs to be sent back to his creator.
I have a Mossberg 500 with the folding ATP Stock. I put on the UTG flashlight/laser combo with the thumb activation switch mounted to the left side of the slide handle. Makes for easy target acquisition if you are awaken in the middle of the night by some dumbazz who needs to be sent back to his creator.
stanly
Active member
My .02. Can't dispute your LEO creds and thanks for your service. But a lot of what you mention is "tactical" related. When deciding to use a shotgun for home defense, I think whoever should do as much research as possible. It's easy to say "go with 00 buck, however, something to think about and they're several studies done on this. If you have children in the home, you might want to reconsider the 00 buck theory. It is known to penetrate most interior walls and keep on a gonin. Consider the likely shooting lanes in your house. Most are only a few feet with a long distance being maybe 30 feet. Consideration needs to go into the climate where you live. If you live in AZ, NM etc, someone entering your home move than likely won't be wearing leather coats etc. How close are your neighbors house to yours, do you live in the country with nothing around your house etc. With these distances we're talking about, I wouldn't have any issues shooting "bird" loads. I would probably opt for something along the lines of turkey loads. I would not use 00 buck. Again do some research on this. You are responsible for every pellet that leaves your gun. If one goes through a window and finds its way across the street into someones house, guess what. Again, you should actually do a walk through your house, measure distances, likely ingress spots that intruders would likely use and likely spots where you would encounter them in your house and go from there. Develop a plan with your family, if you know someone is in your house, does the wife take the kids into master bedroom with handgun and you go down the hall etc. A plan is a good thing, so if it ever does happen you can both work in unison without a lot of confusion. Are you going to let the intruders take what they want as long as they don't attempt to approach your predetermined point where you let it be known you will shoot or are you going to persue the intruders. If you do end up shooting someone, there will be legal consequences, regardless of the outcome. Again do some research about your states laws regarding lethal force. This is a very serious topic and I know there will always be the guys who say "I'm shootin and killin the SOB". That's all well and good, but be prepared to maybe go to jail depending on the laws of your paticular state. OK, I'm finished...