How important is case length ??

G

Greybeard

New member
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I load .223 Rem for a bolt action. My loading manual says "trim to 1.750" and gives 1.760 as max. My cases measure any where from 1.748 to 1.770 Is it safe to say that as long as I only use the cases that measure from 1.750 to 1.760 and I don't crimp, that it'OK? Would my rounds be more accurate if all my brass was trimed to 1.750?
I use R.P. brass.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Good hunting...Emilio, Pico rivera, Ca.
 
i do not reload yet from what i have read and "think" i know. if you want the most accurate rounds they should all be the same lengh. this to me just makes sence yet i am sure a expert reloader will chime in
 
The case length must be the same...You have about .20 difference....Which means one round would be that much longer that another...Trim to same size for best results
 
An overly long case length can raise pressures considerably, which certainly isn't safe. Trim your cases, that's why they make a big deal out of trim length. No point in having to comb your rifle out of your hair, right? Seriously, it IS a big deal, and your eyes and other body parts are important enough to trim cases for. No one likes to trim cases and chamfer them, and all that, but it is important to safety, and that should come first. Most .223 chambers are forgiving,to a degree, but your rifle and eyesight just aren't worth the chance of a problem, at least, mine aren't. Good luck and best wishes.
 
 Ok for what it’s worth when I first started loading I didn’t pay much attention to things like
brass prep and well I got ok loads, over the years I have found that several things that seem to work for me to make much more accurate loads and they are as follows,
After firing from your rifle neck size only.
Trim all brass to the same length, it’s not that hard and it makes some difference in accuracy.
Clean your brass, shiny brass don’t shoot better but it keeps things clean and looks good.
Pay attention to your powder drops and weigh often.
Take your time and enjoy what your doing, it will make your loads that much better.

Not anything special but one of the things that helped with my accuracy problem was to trim my
brass, it does help. There is a ton of things that people say to do to make every round accurate
and some things are pretty in depth, I enjoy reloading but I have tried a bunch of different ways in
the past and found that some things make a noticable gain in accuracy some make a difference but
I can’t see spending the time for a .001 better in accuracy but then again I don’t shoot bench rest.
I think the most important thing about reloading is the same as your shooting, do everything the
same every time and you will find accuracy. Like I said these work for me, everyone has their pet
procedures but trimming the brass is a worthwhile task that will help you out in the long run.
Later,

Kirk
 
My .22-250 (788 Remington) has a weird chamber!

The length to the mouth of the case is too short so I have to trim cases shorter than specs. If I merely trim to spec. the mouths get bright spots (contact points). NOT GOOD!!

The throat length is too long. I can't seat bullets out far enough to get anywhere near the lands. The bullet tips hit the front of the magazine yet still don't reach the lands.

Gotta keep the cases short and the bullets jumping!! BUT still killin' dogs past 300!!

Mark
 
Uniformity is the first key to good handloads.

That means trimming to length, deburring flash holes, etc.

I used to go so far as to weigh cases and segregate them in 1/2 grain increments. But after research I quit this practice due to minimal if any gains in accuracy/consistency.

If you want the best performance f rom your rifle/load combo, it will require a little extra on your part.

Good luck.
 
Differences of as much as .020 in length, as described by Greybeard to start this thread, probably will make a small difference in accuracy. But more typical differences of .005 or less, it takes a VERY accurate rifle to tell any difference. And even then, the difference isn't enough to matter to anyone except a Bench Rest competitor.

Certainly, nothing in the world wrong with trimming cases. And if you feel it helps, by all means keep doing it. But I don't trim mine (except once at the beginning), and I honestly don't think I'm giving up anything in accuracy - all I'm missing out on is having to trim.

What I like to do, is measure my chambers. So I know how long my brass can really grow and still be safe. It's always a lot longer than what the books say. A lot longer. Obviously, you wouldn't want to take this for granted - as evidenced by the short 788 chamber mentioned above. But, all of the factory chambers I've ever measured, and most of the custom ones, have been so long that the brass won't ever grow long enough to impinge on the chamber mouth. Knowing my actual chamber length, what I usually do with my rifles, is wait until the brass has been fired once or twice, then trim them all to a common length. After that, I never trim them again. Even after a dozen firings, they are still within .005 or less of each other, and nowhere near long enough to be a safety concern. Indeed, I've got one set of cases for one of my .22BR's that have been loaded 25 times, without trimming. They still aren't long enough to be any danger, and still shooting groups that average in the 2's.

Here's a picture of the innexpensive little gages Sinclair makes for measuring chamber length. It's good information to have, and these little units are super easy to use:

Chamber%20Length%20Gage.gif.jpg


Here's four five shot groups at 100 yds, fired with cases that had been loaded about a dozen times, and never trimmed. There's even a hole there on the lower right where I splattered a fly at 100 yds. Like I said, I really don't see that I'm giving up any accuracy by not trimming /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .

BR-Agg.jpg


- DAA
 
DAA,

I like that Sinclair gauge!! Not a bad price either!

I outside turn my necks as well. I have read articles which go either way on that topic.

The most common sense one against turning argued that the whole body of the case that has a neck out of round was infact out of round itself. Not just the neck!

It makes sense.

But, I still turn necks. Then I use the Lee Collet die (a neck sizer die which utilizes a mandrel).

When my necks were not gripping the bullets firm enough after outside turning....... I bought an undersized mandrel from Lee ..... works well!!

Even if the case is out of round a turned neck offers atleast one advantage over un-turned..... that of a more uniform neck tension.

Mark
 
It's a page from a Sinclair catalog. But I took the picture quite awhile ago, maybe 4 years ago?

If it works, here's a link to them on the Sinclair website. Looks like they've gone up a few cents, but still pretty cheap.

- DAA
 
I would have to agree with DAA. Unless you have a rifle that can utilize all this prep work you are doing it for nothing. I will say make sure your cases are not too long! You are asking for trouble there with max loads! I have always trimmed batches of new cases (LC .223's)the same and went from there.

Grey, Rem .223 brass is the last on earth I would use but it they are giving you good luck,stay with them. Win, LC, or IMI would be much better in my opinion. Have shot LC all my life in .223's.

Nice groups there DAA!!! What rifle/load shot those?
 
Well...I think I saw "perfect world" somewhere in the conversation...and I can tell you that unless you have a match grade set up, you can't consistently trim cases to any more than +/-.005 which would be a window from let's say 1.730" to 1.740". I do think it would be interesting to get a group of 10 cases together and trim to a .040" variation,,ie. one case at 1.71, the next at 1.72 the next, 1.73 etc. Then take the same set of cases and trim to a tight tolerence, and see if there actually is a marked difference. (In a rifle, and on equiptment that we can ALL afford)...just a thought...jlmoore@nts-online.net to email me
 
Could you explain what you mean, about not being able to trim any better than +/- .005? I really don't think I'm understanding you? My trimmer setup is about as garden variety as it gets (Forster), and I don't have any trouble getting them all within .001 of each other, on a bad day, with no special effort. Never heard of anyone with a trimmer that wouldn't hold them any better than within .010! Hell, I could get 'em that close with a hack saw and a file!

- DAA
 
Here's my 2 cents with my favorite .223:

I am into 800+ rounds with a .223 VLS that is kinda my test bed. I haven't seen that much difference between 1.750 to 1.760, but the best groups have been with cases 1.750 to 1.754. I think there are more important things as far as accuracy.

The biggest factor to "my" rifle has been headspace. Using the old "close the bolt on the case" method, I found my headspace was at .005 off to the loose side. Obtaining and using a RCBS Micrometer, I now set my dies to 0.0 headspace (+- .001). This has been the biggest factor in making the rifle a dependable 1/2 MOA shooter.

Another small factor has been indexing the cases and shooting the heavy side of the case aligned to the top bolt lug. I measure the wall thickness about a 1/3 of the way up the case.

Get a number #25 seating plug if you're using standard Redding dies. This plug allows for a more precise alignment of poly-tips and similar ogives. Since I obtained this plug, my concentricity seldom goes past .003 on the runout.

Just my 2 cents. I figure if the good lord lets me do this a few more years I might figure this stuff out...maybe.

Hey Steve, how many standard loads will a Remington barrel go through before I wear this thing out?

God Bless America and All Here
 
DAA.Why does Sinclair state that you should maintain a minimum of .024 shorter than your actual chamber lenght?Just curious.My 223's chamber measures 1.779 using the sinclair gage.I dont trim until they get above 1.775 and I've never had a problem.
Iron Mike your right about the headspacing.Ive got some 22-250AI brass thats never been full lenght sized and fired 5 or 6 times near max.A little tight to open and close but the accuracy is always there.That wont work with a magnum rifle well but with the lower pressure rounds it seems to be good.
You ever tried a X-die.Do they work?I never tried one.
 
I really don't know. To avoid getting sued would be my guess though.

When I make cases from longer parent brass that allows leaving the cases as long as I want (.17 Mach IV's from .223 for example), I make them .010 shorter than actual chamber length. And of course, I keep a close eye on them to make sure they don't get TOO long with use.

- DAA
 
Barry,

I have never had a real problem with case length growth in any of my four .223 rifles, probably because I don't load heavy for speed. So I never considered an X-sizer set to limit growth. I know a guy down the way that shoots a bunch of assault courses that uses an X-set on his progressive setup. He seems to like the dies (and trusts the setup) for his AR, but he shoots about a thousand rounds a month I think.

I am thinking saving my money for that Neco case guage in the Sinclair catalog, so I can index cases, would serve me better for my bolt guns.

P.S. How do you like that 22-250AI? Is the throat holding up?

P.P.S. I gotta agree with Kirk. I (and most of us) ain't shootin' Camp Perry this year. All I want to do is hit a groundhog at 200 yards. It has to stay fun.

God Bless,

Mike
 
barry206,
.004 clearance is cutting it a little close. A little different radius on the outside of the gauge or case mouth could make that much difference. If there was an even slightly measurable benefit, it might be worth the effort to keep it that close. However, it would take a world class benchrest setup to measure the difference in .040 case length when they are all the same. Even then, it would take many, many groups, fired under controlled conditions to see any difference. We are talking an underground range here. You will never measure the difference shooting outdoors.

Using the time to practice will give 'orders of magnitude' more benefit than exact case length.

Jack
 


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