loaded rounds in a tumbler

Originally Posted By: Little_WeazSOOOOOOOO.............why not just put a few in and then pull the bullets to see what the powder looks like. I imagine there will be a difference between a compressed load and a light load. Put a small line of powder on a board and time how long it takes to burn. Then do the same thing with a line of powder that has not been tumbled. Lay a ruler next to it and start a stopwatch so you can time it say seconds per inch. It seems to me that the scientific method would solve this debate.

Weaz

So you think you can determine burn rate (which, under pressure in a case, if far quicker and different than in the open) with a hand-held stopwatch?

Interesting, but more fookhardy than scientific.

Cornstalker,

I've been around the boards a while, and I've gotten to the point I try to not argue with silliness. There's absolutely NO legitimate reason for tumbling loaded cartridges, so if someone won't heed a warning about it, let 'em learn it the hard way.

Eventus stultorum magister.

Daryl
 
Quote:Eventus stultorum magister

Right on the money. Hopefully not by way of severe injury.........


It scares me when "the guy in the know" dismisses manufacturers warnings as a wives tale.
 
Gun manufacturers have warned against using handloaded ammo in their arms for decades....we do it all the time.

Does that bother you ?
 
Originally Posted By: skb2706Gun manufacturers have warned against using handloaded ammo in their arms for decades....we do it all the time.

Does that bother you ?

Good point!

Sadly enough though, in some cases they are probably right. Like when the reloader won't heed warnings about practices that can alter the burn rate.
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Again as I stated in an earlier post I would not advocate tumbling loaded rounds. If they need tumbled there is obviously some other issue involved...likely something of a much bigger problem that tumbling won't resolve.
I have done it, I don't worry about it, if my neighbor did it I'd still go over and drink his beer.
 
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Daryl,

I am very much aware of the changes in burn rate, pressure, gas build up, etc that take place when powder is burned in an enclosure. Unfortunately, very few, if any, on this board will have the appropriate licensing to run a test that involves putting powder into sealed containers and igniting it. However, simply tumbling some cases, and then visually inspecting the powder can be done without any pyrotechnic permit. If it is visually the same, then we are no where. So, if we take a 2x6 and cut a few 1/8in grooves in it on the table saw. We can put the tumbled powder in a groove, wipe the top off so that it only fills the groove (giving us a roughly controlled amount) and burn it. Then do the same with fresh powder. If the deterrent is worn off then it will show even when the powder is not compressed. Laying a ruler next to it and using a stopwatch will give you a rough result that you can put on paper. If you see results with a simple experiment like this then you can bet you will be getting results similar in your chamber.

Edit: You could put the powder in a small container, like for pills, instead of loaded ammo, and then put it in the tumbler. Much easier, and safer.

OR

I am a jackass that doesn't know what he is talking about!!


To keep this on topic, I would just shoot the bullets anyways and wouldn't tumble them.

Sounds like something for mythbusters.

For you guys with signal cannons that I am sure you never put golf balls in, here is a fun project.

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/fusemaking/blackmatch.htm

Weaz
 
So, where is the scientific explanation of how a deterrent coating is applied to powder granules? It seems like the concern is because it is formed on the outside of the granule similar to a thin coat of spray paint. I always understood it was a chemical process and was absorbed into the granule to a certain depth.
If it was a thin surface coating (like the graphite layer applied to powder to prevent static electricity), they would call it glazing, I believe.
And it wouldn't work well as a glaze.
 
Good Question.

I would imagine that every manufacturer has their own proprietary process that they use. So it will vary from powder to powder. That being said, you would have to know how it was done to the powder you are using before you could determine anything else. This whole fantastic line of BS may not matter at all because any powder tested might not match the powder in the bullets that the original poster has.

I was just gonna put some Varget in mine, but the wife freaked out!! She didn't like that since I am leaving for work. Tomorrow is my day off so I will do it then.

Weaz
 


Second, I quote this straight from my Sierra reloading manual:
Regardless of the method used, handloaders should never tumble loaded ammunition. Doing so may cause a deterioration of the powder's deterrent coating, or, in extreme cases, may damage the powder itself. Either situation would alter the burning rate, possible raising pressures to dangerous levels.

But then, what do they know?



This is all the proof I need.

Mike
 
Quote:But then, what do they know?


Who knows? Sierra makes bullets, not powder or ammunition, last I checked.

You are aware that the arsenals and commercial ammunition manufacturers put their loaded rounds through a vibratory process prior to boxing them, right?
Then they put the crates on a train or truck and ship them all over the world.
That's a lot more harsh than a few minutes in my corncob filled vibratory tumbler.
But don't do it if it makes you feel safer, it's not that big a deal.

But think about this:

Why doesn't the corncob media turn to dust?

Maybe Sierra knows that answer.
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Quote:Why doesn't the corncob media turn to dust?

Maybe Sierra knows that answer. wink

Because the media only has the deterrent coating rubbed off of it....
wink.gif


I'll ask 'em.
grin.gif
 
Quote:Who knows? Sierra makes bullets, not powder or ammunition, last I checked.


Which puts them somewhat more in the know than you, I'd guess?
 
Quote:Which puts them somewhat more in the know than you, I'd guess?

Or about the same. There's some actual tests done by reloaders on the net if you are all that interested. One guy tumbled loaded rounds for 30 days and shot them. He survived.

Post a link to an example of powder that was reduced to particles by tumbling, if it's a known fact.

We'l wait here for your report.

Thanks.

Quote:There's absolutely NO legitimate reason for tumbling loaded cartridges

How about to remove sizing lube?
 
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Quote:How about to remove sizing lube?

I do that before I even prime them.

Just for the heck of it I sent an email request for the answer to our question to Alliant powders and Hodgdon powders. I will post the results here when/if I get them, whether I am right or wrong.

Hopefully we can settle this thing while we're all still buddies.........
 
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Sure, ask them.
Try to get some time information where the damage "may" occur, and what effect it has on the grapite glaze that's applied over the deterrent coating, and the depth that the coating penetrates the powder granule.
 
Quote:How about to remove sizing lube?


You should have done that after resizine, and before priming. You don't need it in the seating die, and you sure don't need it to put primers and powder in the case.

Quote:Or about the same. There's some actual tests done by reloaders on the net if you are all that interested. One guy tumbled loaded rounds for 30 days and shot them. He survived.


I always love the reasoning, "Someone on the 'net did it, so it's safe". It's far more logical than following a loading manual.

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Daryl
 
Originally Posted By: Evil_LurkerSure, ask them.
Try to get some time information where the damage "may" occur, and what effect it has on the grapite glaze that's applied over the deterrent coating, and the depth that the coating penetrates the powder granule.




I hope you don't want all those specs for every powder in their product line.
smile.gif
 
Well, I love these kind of warnings.

Quote:Doing so may cause a deterioration of the powder's deterrent coating, or, in extreme cases, may damage the powder itself. Either situation would alter the burning rate, possible raising pressures to dangerous levels.


That's a pretty vague "warning", buddy.

It also may not, eh?
What's an "extreme" case, a year?

Quote:I always love the reasoning, "Someone on the 'net did it, so it's safe".

Well then, don't do it.

Here's a link, read it yourself:

Tumbler test

Quote:You should have done that after resizine, and before priming. You don't need it in the seating die, and you sure don't need it to put primers and powder in the case.


There are these inventions called progressive reloading presses where you have a continuous flow of ammunition. They don't work so slick if you interrupt the sequence.
 
Quote:I hope you don't want all those specs for every powder in their product line.

Naw, just ask them about extruded powders. I don't think spherical is going to be nearly as touchy, considering it doesn't have any sharp corners.
 
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