Mountain Lions What can I do?

Radd4

Radd4

New member
My brothers and I have been seeing Mountain lions at very close ranges the last year where we hunt. I have actually seen a female with her cubs at 3:30 p.m. while I was going into my shooting house only 35 yards away. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif They did not move out to fast either when they saw us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I guess they felt real comfortable in the draw they were traveling in. Here is the problem, I have a 7 year old son that hunts with me and we go into this site before light and I am a little concerned that my son may look like a snack to them. We can not kill them in Oklahoma unless they are killing the livestock or attack a person. I just don't want to wait until the latter happens. Is there a way I can get them to move on? To be honest it scares my son a little and I do not want this to scare him out of hunting, as he loves deer and turkey hunting. My brother and I are pretty sure that we saw one about 40 yards from us after dark one night while we were trying to find a buck that I shot in this draw. I am not scared of them as I carry a glock 40 when I am hunting during firearm season, but my son is and I want him to stay excited about hunting as he has been for the last three years. Any advice would be helpful.
 
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Call the goverment trapper in your county.....he can set a live trap and relocate the cat,,,,,,,,,,but fist while leaving son at home, I would have to try and call it in and get some footage at least..CDC
 
I have had my video camera with me but did not occur to me to get tape, also a neighboring landowner said that his teenage son that was sitting in a tree stand killed a doe and then walked up to the truck to meet his dad and after about a half hour they made it back to the doe and it's hind quarter was eaten and the rest was covered in leaves. seems a little too close to me.
 
I don't know what to do, but it seems like the population of mtn lions is on the rise just about everywhere. I'm hearing more and more stories of people having run-ins and close calls with them. Here is a pic of one that showed up on some guy's home surveillence camera in a new housing development near Salt Lake City...

lion1.jpg.jpg


kinda makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

You might want to consider carrying cannisters of extreemly strong pepper spray and perhaps have your son do the same. Have him understand what he should do should he ever confront a cougar.
 
Forget the pepper spray carry a gun,if a cat came after you there would be no time to pull out a can of pepper spay,you also risk blinding yourself if the spay blows back in your face.
 
Radd4

My kids (5yrs and 7yrs) like to go squirrel hunting with me and when I told them I had saw 2 mountain lions in our hunting area there was some real concern, especially from my wife. But then she said something that seemed to quell the fear. She told them that she trusted my decision about taking them back there. She added that she new I loved them and that I would never take them any where I thought something bad could happen to them.
The Kids and I went online and found out as much as we could about mountain lions. We read about how they are very hard to count because they like to stay away from humans so much and how far they travel. Also how big their neighborhood is…I explained how it could be as much as 200 miles long. We also looked at pictures of their scat “poop” and that was really funny to the kids. I also told the kids that it is important to trust their instincts “feelings” and if at any time they decided it was time to back to the truck then we would.
Now, we go out and no one even says anything about the mountain lions. Oh my 7 year old might say something to try and scare the 5 year old but thats just big sister “being a big sister”.
It seems that really this was just another great life lesson my kids learned though hunting. Also, this has reinforced our bond and demonstrated to them that mom and dad are on the same page and we are looking out for them.

Good luck,

Brian
 
I would contact the government trapper in your area. If they are there(I am not saying other wise), he can do something about it. Also i do not think the pepper spray will do a lot of good either, cats are to fast. Do what you can to keep yourself and your family safe. Also bhauser makes some good points, use this too look up and learn with your kids. There are always going to be things out there that will scare kids. They just need to learn about what it is and what to do if they encounter them. Goodluck. Also despite the fact that they were so close to your house, feel lucky that you saw one. Most people hunt all their lives and maybe catch a quick glimpse. you may never see one again after this.
 
If you are seeing cougars several times over a short time frame then you have a problem. The female with kittens is teaching them humans are No threat. So when they grow up and are kicked out they might look to humans as a nice new prey. That is probably what happened in California a couple of years ago when the biker was killed and eaten and another was attacked the same day.
www.cougarinfo.org
The longest territory I have read about that was documented was ~30 miles. The range is usually given in square miles. 150 square miles is common for a Tom. That is roughly 12.5 by 12.5 miles square. Females usually have smaller ranges especially when food is plentiful.
Quote "when you step out of your truck, you are entering the food chain"
 
If you hunt deer in the area i would do whatever you LEGALLY can to get rid of them,that many cats in your area will take a toll on the deer numbers.
 
on the land i hunt in southern wisconsin the DNR let 3 males go and didnt say that they did until a 4 year old boy was attacked and killed while in his sandbox...the person who owns the land i hunt was walking his dogs snd one walked into the woods...about a minute laters in comes running out yelping with the cougar chasing it...luckily it turned away when it saw the man ... i really wish that the DNR would let us shoot those things
 
Radd4 I will tell you what a guide in Alsaka told me many years ago when I asked him what handgun to bring incase of a bear attact. He said it really didn't matter but to file off the front sight so when the bear shoved it up my----- it would not hurt as bad. What I would say to you is that cat in an attack mode is very very fast killing him with a hand gun will be a challage. Did you call your local USF&G office You better before you do anything. Mauser
 
Radd4,

Well, under your state's rules on lions I can't tell what the best approach is.

But I can offer some other advice:

First off, I would not sit around and sing Cumbaya and Que Serra Serra like others might of suggested.

AND, "Blessings" with respect to habituated cougars do little good beyond funeral ceremonies.

Go to the "Lions, Bears and Houndsmen" section in Predator Masters and check out the link I posted about Yakima County and cougars.

You mention that the cats ate a quarter off your deer. You're lucky. A hunter about three years ago here in Washington State had a cougar jump on his back when he was bent over to dress his just harvested elk. His response? All he had at his disposal was his knife and he wildly thrust it behind him. It all happened so fast he DID NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT WAS ON HIM!!!! The now wounded cat ran back into the woods still unseen by the now wounded hunter.

Now, I don't for a minute discount the effectiveness of a handgun. But let me warn you: Having a handgun and using it effectively are not automatically synonimous! You have to be very proficient!

This is no two legged predator, cougars are incredibly stealthy and super fast and deadly. Think about this way: When was the last time you crawled to within 25 feet of a deer and landed on it's back, rode the "eight seconds" and broke it's neck??

Now, what's really important here: Your son!

He needs to stay home until this is resolved.

My nephews ages 7 and 4 are virtual prisoners right here on our ranch. I am no stranger to this.

What kind of fool would tell a child "what to do" if a cougar is encountered??? Seriously??

Now, of course you tell them the obvious but in reality, blessings here are more effective.

Take the first bit of advice given to people: LOOK LARGE!!

Do we dress the kid up as Super Man in a custom costume that is inflatable????? ....... like some puffer bird???

OK lets try number two: DON'T RUN!!

See the folly here?

Sure you tell them to make eye contact and all that, but I still insist praying here is more effective!

The Human/Cougar relationship has been so far out of whack over time that it is incredible. First we nearly drove them to extinction. That was unnecessary.

Now we are going to protect them "to death"!

How do you protect something to death? Well, it's simple:

By idolizing them!

Cougars are magnificient creatures. Through my then eight year old eyes I saw my first cougar. I will never never forget that experience. And it was non-threating. That sighting was a blessing ..... seriously.

Why? Well, simply because that cougar I saw was not habituated. It feared people.

Only cougars that fear people can be tollerated! SERIOUSLY!

Three 44s
 
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Dear Radd4, I congratulate you for your questions and concerns. I think you have received some very good advise here, especially from Three 44's /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif but I honestly think you have asked and answerd your own question, You feel "fear for your son", and you should! This discussion is well done, but bottom line all the weapons, all the tricks, all the planning may not be enough to save your child. I understand you are packing, that is good but like 44's said you may miss the shot,or "you are ambushed", the way they like to hunt, if the coug gets "you" where does that leave your son, don't loose(CHOOSE)the chance to save your kid. I would not want you to live the rest of your days trying to find forgiveness in yourself, because this predator is not worth taking the chances with. Go hunt elsewhere! I also understand the frustrations of living in a state that threatens us with LAWS that protect the predator and not helping us protect ourselves and livestock. You need to inform everyone in the surrounding area as well as your officials you have a female cougar with kittens. If you get that picture or video, send it to a newspaper that will "Front page your Warning". When it is called an escaped pet, you tell them the danger of a cougar that has "IMPRINTED ON HUMANS" is more of a danger than any totally wild cougar. Bottom line a cougar is a cougar.

sorry so long...last night I was called to investiagate the sighting of a cougar, this is in a small village, I photographed the tracks of the cougar that crossed the hill the children were sleigh riding on 3 hours prior. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
http://users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/fitztabl.htm
 
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I would like some proof of their existance here in OK. I don't doubt it, but every year this comes up; a sighting or whatever. The game wardens I have talked to all deny cougars being in OK. The state trapper who I know, says the only one he knows of was hit by a train several years ago, and was wearing a collar. It apparently came from another state a long ways off. I have talked to people who have 'known' someone who shot one while messing with livestock, but none have ever actually seen one; dead or alive. I am not doubting it, I just want a little more proof than 'someone told someone that they....'
CrossJ
 
Back in the 1990s, Washington and Oregon outlawed the taking of cougar with the used of dogs. My question is, how is this affecting their population growth?

About 10-15 years ago, they darted a large female cat near Vancouver mall. It was relocated up to the St. Helens area.

About 4 years ago, on the Kalama river, a guy had just caught a nice chinook salmon. He tied it to his rucksack and headed for the car. A cougar came out of the underbrush snatched the salmon off his back and took off.

Again about 3 years ago in the Vancouver/Camas area, a cat was found in a residential yard, under some bushes. The homeowners dogs had cornered it. This was all captured on film by one of the news helicopters. Anyway, s sheriff's deputy was lined up on the cat with his M16. The cat took two steps. Two shots. Game over.
 
bucksnort2,

Well if you believe WDFW it stands at about 2400. I think that number is pitfully understated. I base that assumption on two facts.

One is that it is an old number. Since the ban on hound hunting (ten years and running) hunting harvests are not what they were. WDFW says it's roughly the same. Sounds like "hedging" to me! I tried to get those harvest numbers from their headquarters and met more hedging. Finally they gave me the Manager of Carnivore's voice mail only to find it was FULL!!!

The other reason I think numbers are way up is that sightings and predation is way up! That to me speaks VOLUMES!!!

Now, if you consider Oregon. Washington has more habitat, but Oregon hound hunting was banned at about the same time. Other changes in cougar management happened about the same time frames and in the same directions.

Well, Oregon estimates it's cougar population at FIVE THOUSAND!!!!!

.... and about 3000 in 1994. I think that this is a much more viable number and I would not having trouble arguing that it could be 6000 to 7000 in Washington.

Thats a bunch of cats!

Three 44s
 
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I will tell you what a guide in Alsaka told me many years ago when I asked him what handgun to bring incase of a bear attact. He said it really didn't matter but to file off the front sight so when the bear shoved it up my----- it would not hurt as bad.



I'm continually amazed at the number of people, and specifically "guides" who you'd think would know better, who try to tell people handguns are useless as a defense, so why even carry one, "you'll never get it out in time anyway", or as your guide said "file off the front sight so...".

I'll give myself that fighting chance. These other guys can die screaming and scratching and clawing at their attacker. I'll die (or kill my attacker) doing my damdest to get that .40, .357, or 454 out of it's hoster. Who knows, I might just succeed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Just one opinion, but I think only a fool goes out without a sidearm where bears and lions frequent. But, as someone also said, practice and being proficient in it's use (even if that's just being able to draw it under stress and stick it in the belly of a critter) is key. No handgun will do a bit of good if you can't get it out of a holster in a stress situation, or hit what you're shooting at.
 
radd4
The only encounter I have had with cougars has been from long distance (in the wild) but I do agree with three44's in his views on your kids.

Living in Kalifornia, as I do, we seem to be the busiest state of all as far as attacks go. Why is that? I think because people believe the old knowledge that cats avoid humans. They do until they want to eat them!

These suckers are such effecient killing machines it is almost beyond belief. About 20 miles from my home is a rescue for endangered cats from all over the world (called the Exotic Feline Breeding Compound), Rosamond, Ca. if you're interested). They have everything from 20lb exotics to 700+ lb tigers. I have seen them all and that is one SCARY sight from 20 feet away!

There are usually numerous mountain lions there and every once in a while they open it up to visitors at night for "feeding" time. The cats are very hungry and WAY more aggressive then you see them in the daytime. What I saw there gave me an eyeopener I'll never forget. My wife and I were walking past one ML cage about 2 feet from the barrier fence. This fence is only about 2 feet from the cats cage.

This cage was approx 15' X 25' and the cat was sitting on top of his house about 20' from the cage end (where I was). I noticed he was crouched on his house (not just lying there) and stopped to observe him. After a second or so, my wife asked if I could hear him growling? No I couldn't. Literally, in the blink of an eye, he SLAMMED up against the cage fence, nearly forcing it about another foot towards the barrier fence. Now I know why they keep us the extra 2' away.

The point here, is the speed that cat made the leap of twenty feet and the force he hit the fence with would have taken me off my feet so fast and so hard there would be no time to protect myself, much less a child. It is hard to imagine their power and strength until you see a display like this.

Keep the kids away from the cats until they are removed, if possible. Carry a sidearm but learn to be fast and accurate with it first. You MIGHT get a shot.

By the way, the cat that attacked the girl biker, and had also killed another man, held her in its jaws while her friend (another woman) was screaming and throwing rocks at it. Not until two other bikers showed up did it let her go, and by then she was nearly dead, as he had her throat in his jaws and was not doing it to play.

If it were me, I saw one near my kids, anywhere, I'd shoot near it. Make it fear me as much as possible, hoping it would leave the area. Might not be totally legal, but better than a dead child.
 
Cross J,

I hunt up in Northern Oklahoma only 20 minutes from the Kansas state line. I tell you this so that you have a little idea where I am. As for the game rangers, Ranchers will tell you and I agree with them that a Game Ranger here will always deny Mt. Lions are here because they do not want to be responsible for the repercussions (killed livestock, pets or children) due to ODWC reintroducing them to the area. I HAVE SEEN these cats myself and to be honest I was more than a little surprised. My brothers saw them at 35 yards while standing outside one of our shooting house. This is not the first time we have seen them either. We have leased this property for 8 years and have had 5 different people see them, all were my brothers. We are talking about guys who have been hunting for a long time so we are not novices, I have talked to the land owner who is a friend but also someone I trust and he said he has not lost any cattle yet and I should just be prepared and that hopefully soon they will probably move on. I will leave my son at home until I know they have moved on or I will move to another part of our property. He may not have lost any cattler but we have noticed there are less Ferrell cats and dogs the last two years. I appreciate everyones input. I will say that if I were to see one of these guys coming in my direction while I have my son with me someone will be getting a new rug at the ODWC. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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