New Rifle-Rem 700 or Sako

Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseI know the subject of the Tikka stirs some up. I've long suspected this is mostly envy because the Tikka is what Remington fans would LIKE Remington to be.


I think if you check with most Remington fans, you will find this could no further from the truth.

What an utterly ridiculous comment.........
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunOriginally Posted By: The Famous GrouseI know the subject of the Tikka stirs some up. I've long suspected this is mostly envy because the Tikka is what Remington fans would LIKE Remington to be.


I think if you check with most Remington fans, you will find this could no further from the truth.

What an utterly ridiculous comment.........

Well, as brand fans, RemmyFans would hardly be likely to admit it. Remington once had Tikka/Sako's level of design, innovation, and quality and I hope they get it again.

But as I already wrote: How would that (a Tikka) compare to a Remington? Who cares. Bottom line is the Tikka did it, so why would I want to mess with success?

Grouse
 
Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseOriginally Posted By: 2muchgunOriginally Posted By: The Famous GrouseI know the subject of the Tikka stirs some up. I've long suspected this is mostly envy because the Tikka is what Remington fans would LIKE Remington to be.


I think if you check with most Remington fans, you will find this could no further from the truth.

What an utterly ridiculous comment.........

Well, as brand fans, RemmyFans would hardly be likely to admit it. Remington once had Tikka/Sako's level of design, innovation, and quality and I hope they get it again.

But as I already wrote: How would that (a Tikka) compare to a Remington? Who cares. Bottom line is the Tikka did it, so why would I want to mess with success?

Grouse


If you knew anything of which you speak, you would know that today's Tikka is a far cry further from the original (that they "raved about in Europe" as you say)than today's Remington 700 is from your grandaddy's 700, and what a POOR analogy you just used........
 
If anything, I would say Sako is what Tikka fans wished a Tikka was. Because that is exactly what a Tikka is, a half-baked Sako with production costs cut at nearly every corner.

But you go ahead, keep digging your hole...........
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Originally Posted By: 2muchgunIf anything, I would say Sako is what Tikka fans wished a Tikka was. Because that is exactly what a Tikka is, a half-baked Sako with production costs cut at nearly every corner.

But you go ahead, keep digging your hole...........
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A typical FanBoy reaction.

Go ahead then. Tell us exactly how "today's Tikka is a far cry further from the original [Tikka]..."

Let me know if you need a light down at the bottom of that hole. This should be good, since I own multiple Tikkas bought over a 10 year span beyond that first .22-250.

C'mon then. Out with it. Tell us all about the Tikkas that you don't own.

Grouse
 
"Typical fan boy" can easily be applied to you, as well. We get it, you prefer Tikka. Let me know when Tikka sells 7 million T3's

I wouldn't not own a tikka t3...they're a decent platform. I just do not see how it is so vastly superior to the Rem 700 or any other mainstream platform for that matter.

Really, if I were to not buy a Rem 7 or 700, it would be a Howa/Wby Vanguard long before a Tikka T3.
 
Sako without question. I have 2. I like Remington just fine but most people seem to buy a 700, change the trigger, change the stock, often change the barrel, and then talk about how great Remington is. I buy a Sako and go shoot it. Here is my new Coyote Hammer: Sako Finnlight 243, VX3 4.5-14x40 with CDS, and gonna load up some 90 grain Ballistic Tips for it. If it shoots like my Sako 270 then it should shoot bugholes.

 
Originally Posted By: pahntr760"Typical fan boy" can easily be applied to you, as well. We get it, you prefer Tikka. Let me know when Tikka sells 7 million T3's

I wouldn't not own a tikka t3...they're a decent platform. I just do not see how it is so vastly superior to the Rem 700 or any other mainstream platform for that matter.

Really, if I were to not buy a Rem 7 or 700, it would be a Howa/Wby Vanguard long before a Tikka T3.

Not at all. I deliberately left out the fact that I both own, use, and in fact I even prefer Remingtons for certain applications. I wanted to let the Remington fans fall all over themselves accusing me of being anti-Remington and in the process end up proving themselves wrong.

Please show me where I wrote that a Tikka T3 was "vastly superior" to a Remington? Is it superior to a Remington model of the same price point? Yes, IMO it is. Tikka vs a Remington model in a different price category? I may well prefer Remington. So much for me being anti-Remington.

Grouse
 
All you have proven, Grouse, is that your initial post was ridiculous, and that it is sometimes better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..........
 
Still awaiting your detailed reply, 2muchgun.
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All you have proved so far is that you can't come up with the goods.

At this point, you could always go with the "tail between legs" approach and run away with the old "You aren't worth the effort," response. Of course, you still won't have shown us that you actually know what you're talking about.

Grouse


Originally Posted By: The Famous Grouse

Go ahead then. Tell us exactly how "today's Tikka is a far cry further from the original [Tikka]..."

Let me know if you need a light down at the bottom of that hole. This should be good, since I own multiple Tikkas bought over a 10 year span beyond that first .22-250.

C'mon then. Out with it. Tell us all about the Tikkas that you don't own.
 
Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseGetting back to the original post, there's really very little comparison, because the two rifles are in completely different leagues and price points. As another member pointed out with the car analogy, they are completely different rifles and the higher price point of the Sako means better build, fit, and finish, and quality control.

Just leaving the question as asked: New Sako vs a new Remington 700, it's Sako every time. The Sako is refined, elegant, durable, and among those with actual experience, Sako's reputation for tack-driving out of box performance and long-term durability cannot be matched. You only have to look at the prices that used Sakos fetch to confirm that they are built to last.

Now the RemmyHeads are going to say, I've got grandpa's Remington from 1968 that shoots great, blah, blah, blah, I say good for you. That's your grandpappy's Remington and nothing to do with what you get off the rack today. Which does not in any way stack up to what a new Sako offers.

I know the subject of the Tikka stirs some up. I've long suspected this is mostly envy because the Tikka is what Remington fans would LIKE Remington to be. Nitpick the design of the Tikka all you want with armchair theories and amateur engineering. The bottom line is that Tikka's produce the results time after time.

I got a Tikka .22-250 the first year they were available in the USA after seeing and hearing them raved about in Europe for a couple of years. I had mine about 5 years before they became commonly known and talked about over here when some big chain stores finally picked up the line.

I'm well over 2000 rounds out of a Tikka .22-250 and it's still a varmint's worst nightmare. I can detect no change in the excellent accuracy from the day it was new, despite the fact that this summer I will most likely pass 3000 rounds fired.

How would that compare to a Remington? Who cares. Bottom line is the Tikka did it, so why would I want to mess with success?

Grouse


I'm pretty much in the same boat. I bought my Tikka years ago before me or anyone that I knew had even heard about them. I had initially set out to buy a 700 or a browning. The shop owner (I'd boughten several guns from already) highly recommended I check out the Tikka. They had just started importing them, he'd played with them, and he said he was very impressed. I really liked the Tikka and have been happy with it ever since. I could care less if it has a couple little pieces of plastic, a bolt stop, and one size action. I think every major pistol manufacturer is now making polymer frames and selling a ton of them with very happy customers. As I already said...the trigger is great, the bolt is smoothest I have, and it flat out shoots. They are a heck of a buy for the money. Like I said in an earlier post....It's not a Sako. I'm glad it's not a Sako because then it wouldn't have "shortcuts" to keep cost down and it would cost 4 times what they do. I'm pretty positive that the "shortcuts" aren't affecting the function or the accuracy. The bullets coming out of the barrel surely don't care about the plastic pieces....and the groups on the paper are all the proof I'll ever need
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I'm not brand loyal at all and I absolutely don't care what anyone else shoots. Off the top of my head I'm counting 8 different brands that I own...happy with all of them for different reasons and purposes. That being said.....(prepare for butthurt) I don't think Remington is what it used to be. If Remington was still as good as they used to be...Savage, Tikka, Howa, etc wouldn't be talked about like they are now. There are a lot of non remington owners very happy with their non 700 purchase. The vast majority of the 700's I see around here are probably 20+ years old and severely beaten up. But the owners are very happy with them and will never part with them. The 700's also rule the aftermarket. I personally prefer Savages but only because I can change the barrel in 10 minutes myself.

I think every major manufacturer can be made to shoot. I'm actually yet to purchase a rifle or barrel that I couldn't get to shoot less than inch (usually hover right around half an inch)...maybe I'm just lucky.

Different brands make different people happy for different reasons and our opinions are meaningless.
 
"Different brands make different people happy for different reasons and our opinions are meaningless."

Bingo!! This should be the takeaway, well except for the meaningless part. Our opinions should be taken with a grain of salt is the way I would put it, as they're all subjective...


I think this horse has been beaten just about to death. That said, some lively discussion here is always fun to follow. Hopefully Bubba101 found a good rifle he'll enjoy.
 
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That was a pretty good post, for the most part
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Didn't sound too fanboyish like some I've read. Or say anything completely baseless and stupid like "Tikka are what 700 owners wish there rifles were".

But what you need to understand is, when you say things like "if the 700 was any good now, the other brands wouldn't be talked about the way they are". That is where I have to stop you. Not because I'm a Remington fan, but because it is simply plain wrong. You are talking about a rifle that has sold nearly 8 MILLION copies, continues to OUTSELL all the others, and is the preferred choice of military AND LEO alike. It is also the basis of what most custom actions are built/cloned around, and the basis of what most precision rifles are built around. These are FACTS, not opinions. You can overlook them if you want, but I tend to try to stay firmly grounded through FACTS.

Some seem to have blinders on when it comes to reality. What you see, and what you read on one particular website, etc, is not necessarily an accurate depiction of the big picture........
 
I have several of all these rifles and they all have strong points and low points to me. I prefer the winchester M70 myself but that is strictly a personal prefernce. You need to go handle these guns and decide what you want from there. Most all of them can be made to shoot pretty well. If you want a piece of my advise, for what it is worth, you can get into a used older model of any of these brands at a good price and I think the craftmanship of the older ones is better than the present. Hope to hear that you found what you like in the near future.
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunThat was a pretty good post, for the most part
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Didn't sound too fanboyish like some I've read. Or say anything completely baseless and stupid like "Tikka are what 700 owners wish there rifles were".

But what you need to understand is, when you say things like "if the 700 was any good now, the other brands wouldn't be talked about the way they are". That is where I have to stop you. Not because I'm a Remington fan, but because it is simply plain wrong. You are talking about a rifle that has sold nearly 8 MILLION copies, continues to OUTSELL all the others, and is the preferred choice of military AND LEO alike. It is also the basis of what most custom actions are built/cloned around, and the basis of what most precision rifles are built around. These are FACTS, not opinions. You can overlook them if you want, but I tend to try to stay firmly grounded through FACTS.

Some seem to have blinders on when it comes to reality. What you see, and what you read on one particular website, etc, is not necessarily an accurate depiction of the big picture........


I have no issue with you and like your posts (usually)....but if you're going to quote me....don't change my quote....

""when you say things like "if the 700 was any good now, the other brands wouldn't be talked about the way they are". That is where I have to stop you.""

No reason to stop me...because that's not what I said...but since you changed my statement to make another argument..........

I am very well fully aware of what the 700's are capable of and all the facts that go along with the action. But don't tell me for a second that LEO, military, and benchrest shooters are shooting a factory remington 700.

Anytime I make a comparison it's off the shelf vs off the shelf or custom vs custom. You can't compare those 700 rifles to off the shelf Tikka, Savage, Weatherby, Howa, Ruger or whatever other name you want to come up with. That's the same as comparing a factory 700 to a surgeon scalpel or accuracy international...completely different leagues.

For all any of us "internet geniuses" know, any manufacturer in this entire thread might go belly up in a year, or 5 10 20.

The ONLY point I've tried to make in this beating a dead horse thread is that there are currently a TON of manufacturers that produce quality rifles, most of which are capable of shooting better than we are capable of shooting them. Pick what makes you happy.
 
Originally Posted By: kpkiefer

For all any of us "internet geniuses" know, any manufacturer in this entire thread might go belly up in a year, or 5 10 20.


Prolly not Remington.
 
Kinda splitting hairs now, aren't you? You said "if Remington is what they used to be". Same thing.

They are STILL best selling bolt action. Now, and of all time. And STILL all the other things I said also.

When people start telling me of this "out of the box" stuff, I have to wonder. Because I can pretty much guarantee you I have sampled a larger amount of "out the box" 700s than most. Every last one of them was/is a very accurate rifle. All of them. Which leads me to believe that many/most who use the "out of the box" theory, really aren't purchasers/users of Remingtons, but merely readers of internet myth. Actual purchasers/users seem to remain quite happy with their 700s. Ans the numbers reflect this, obviously. I did not change your statement to make a different argument. My "argument" remains the same.

If any of other said rifles/actions were better, then why aren't they the most cloned, built upon, and best selling rifles out there? Must be a reason......
 
Sorry, I had the reply open and didn't see ^^^ above message until after I hit post. I'll shut up now.


Originally Posted By: 2muchgunKinda splitting hairs now, aren't you? You said "if Remington is what they used to be". Same thing.

They are STILL best selling bolt action. Now, and of all time. And STILL all the other things I said also.

When people start telling me of this "out of the box" stuff, I have to wonder. Because I can pretty much guarantee you I have sampled a larger amount of "out the box" 700s than most. Every last one of them was/is a very accurate rifle. All of them. Which leads me to believe that many/most who use the "out of the box" theory, really aren't purchasers/users of Remingtons, but merely readers of internet myth. Actual purchasers/users seem to remain quite happy with their 700s. Ans the numbers reflect this, obviously. I did not change your statement to make a different argument. My "argument" remains the same.

If any of other said rifles/actions were better, then why aren't they the most cloned, built upon, and best selling rifles out there? Must be a reason......

"was any good" vs "as good as they used to be"

"was any good" made it sound like I was saying 700's are junk...surely they are not...and that is certainly not how I meant it.
I'm in complete agreement with you that the 700 was/still is king of the hill. The 700 has long been the standard by which every other bolt action has been measured. But, people have to face the fact that there are several manufactures other than Remington that produce a quality rifle. I think manufacturers pretty much have to be on par or better than a 700 simply to get people to even notice them. If they aren't up to par with the 700, they get a BAD rap fast. So when something like a Tikka (using Tikka purely as an example here) comes along...and gets a pretty good reputation amongst the majority, it's got to be pretty good.

"If any of other said rifles/actions were better, then why aren't they the most cloned, built upon, and best selling rifles out there? Must be a reason...... "
1. The 700 is a good action and they've been around forever.
2. Military and every gunsmith can make them shoot.
3. Why fix what isn't broke.
4. They have a good reputation.

Like I've said a billion times already 700's are excellent actions. I liked the idea on the first page of a 700 with a custom tube probably the best of any in this thread. But to ignore any other gun simply because it doesn't say remington 700 is absolutely ridiculous. I equate that to buying the first car you see in the lot without walking around and at least kicking the tires.

Oh, and by the way, I was thinking more. I forgot about a gun I used to have. I would've been surprised to hold a 3" group at 100 yards out of the box. It was a Remington. It was an 870 12ga slug gun haha. But, I have an 870 SPS super mag that will never leave. The 870 is kinda like a 700.....the standard by which others are measured.

And for future reference, I don't throw out opinions and options on something I haven't owned or currently own
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