?'s about winchester black talon bullets?
- Thread starter NCVARMINT
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NM Leon
New member
Try gunbroker or your local gunshow. Black Talons aren't made anymore.
I think Winny's SXT is close to the same thing.
Federal Hydra-Shok, Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot are good too depending on what you want it for.
Most important is what feeds and functions best in your gun. Even Wally World sells a cheap hollow point that should do the trick.
I think Winny's SXT is close to the same thing.
Federal Hydra-Shok, Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot are good too depending on what you want it for.
Most important is what feeds and functions best in your gun. Even Wally World sells a cheap hollow point that should do the trick.
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
I think, but not sure, that Winchester caved into Political Correctness on the "Black Talon" name and re-issued basically the same cartridge in their XTP line, which has since been discontinued.
Once in a while I see them at gun shows, at a premium price.
I have a limited amount in .45acp, 10mm, and .44 mag.
Once in a while I see them at gun shows, at a premium price.
I have a limited amount in .45acp, 10mm, and .44 mag.
jbuck
New member
You can find a updated design of the black talon bullet in the ranger SXT line of ammo. It is marked LEO but you can find it easily enough. My local gun shop stocks it and that is what I carry in my government models. It doesn't have the black coating and has a redesigned jacket, I think to help it open faster, while still retaining the death pedals that made the original so famous. It will be a lot cheaper and you will have a better bullet.
Morgancohunter
New member
CDNN sells the ranger line of LEO ammo at great prices... and never more then 9.99 for shipping!
2muchgun
New member
Just bought a box of Ranger SXT's in 40 S&W a couple months back off a guy for $10 shipped. Not bad for 50rds......
Bea---you are correct about the Gold-dots being great bullets. They are some of my favorites. They will out-perform the Hornady XTP's. I've taken several deer and a black bear with them. Perfect performance. I use them exclusively now in my 444 Marlin and 480 Ruger. And sometimes in my 45 Colt +P loads. There are different types of Gold-dots for different things. They are excellent self-defense rounds also, as you say.
That said, as far as killin' humans goes, the Black Talon may be the most deadly bullet ever devised. The wound channel it creates is nothing short of devastating. The amount of internal bleeding it causes cannot be duplicated by any other bullet to date. I think I still have some samples of a Black Talon, a Remington Golden Saber and a Gold-Dot that were tested in ballistic gelatin in the Detroit Police ballistics dept. I do not have the gelatin, obviously, however. All 3 bullets did plenty well and would achieve their goals. The GD's mushroomed the most, and held together as usual. Big, wide wound channel. The Golden Saber was a little behinfd the GD, but still plenty good. What separates the BT from the other 2, is that the wound channel was just as wide, weight retention was 100%, but the sides of the wound channel were not nearly as "smooth". The BT's literally turn your insides into shrapnel and the trauma caused is incredible. There is a reason why they "outlawed" them. They may have been designed too perfectly......
If I get around to it, I can post some pics of the bullets.......
Bea---you are correct about the Gold-dots being great bullets. They are some of my favorites. They will out-perform the Hornady XTP's. I've taken several deer and a black bear with them. Perfect performance. I use them exclusively now in my 444 Marlin and 480 Ruger. And sometimes in my 45 Colt +P loads. There are different types of Gold-dots for different things. They are excellent self-defense rounds also, as you say.
That said, as far as killin' humans goes, the Black Talon may be the most deadly bullet ever devised. The wound channel it creates is nothing short of devastating. The amount of internal bleeding it causes cannot be duplicated by any other bullet to date. I think I still have some samples of a Black Talon, a Remington Golden Saber and a Gold-Dot that were tested in ballistic gelatin in the Detroit Police ballistics dept. I do not have the gelatin, obviously, however. All 3 bullets did plenty well and would achieve their goals. The GD's mushroomed the most, and held together as usual. Big, wide wound channel. The Golden Saber was a little behinfd the GD, but still plenty good. What separates the BT from the other 2, is that the wound channel was just as wide, weight retention was 100%, but the sides of the wound channel were not nearly as "smooth". The BT's literally turn your insides into shrapnel and the trauma caused is incredible. There is a reason why they "outlawed" them. They may have been designed too perfectly......
If I get around to it, I can post some pics of the bullets.......
deltahunter
New member
My best friend is a gunsmith/custom gun builder. He is originally from Anchorage and did a lot of ballistic testing with the Anchorage PD. He says all of today's premium self defense ammo is great, but he likes the Federal Hydrashock. He said it came apart unlike the bonded ones, but still did more terminal damage. His least favorite is the Golden Saber. He likes the Black talon/SXT/Ranger, but says it is way over rated. I've killed two deer with the Ranger Law Enforcement rounds out of my .40 and recovered the bullets on both. I was greatly disappointed. The bullet didn't mushroom AT ALL on the first deer, and barely peeled back on the second one. now I'm thinking if a deer's hide won't make it peel back, why would a human's?
2muchgun
New member
Delta---that is some good info. Do you have the bullets(pics?) still? I've not killed anything with an actual Black Talon/Ranger, only seen the ballistic gelatin tests. However, from the best I can tell, the bullet used in the Win Supreme Platinum Tip line, is also the same bullet. I shot a large doe with this bullet at 80yds. Hit the point of the shoulder(quartering to) and it came out the rear opposite side ham! This was with a 100gr charge of Pyrodex out of a 22" barreled Knight ML.
Most of the Gold-dots I've used on deer have been pass-thru's, no matter where they were hit with my 480SRH or 444 Marlin.......
I do still have a 270gr Gold-Dot that both broke shoulders of a 250+lb blackie and lodged in the far side hide. It retained 92% of its weight, and the bear never took a step.
I've tested the GD's at some pretty high velocities, and they still manage to hold together....
Now you've got me thinkin' about shootin' a deer with my .40 Baby Eagle with some Rangers.......
I usually only like the big hand cannons for deer though, as I shot one last year with a 357 S&W as was not impressed. Told myself at that point I'll stick with my 45 Colt+P or the 480 SRH..........
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Most of the Gold-dots I've used on deer have been pass-thru's, no matter where they were hit with my 480SRH or 444 Marlin.......
I do still have a 270gr Gold-Dot that both broke shoulders of a 250+lb blackie and lodged in the far side hide. It retained 92% of its weight, and the bear never took a step.
I've tested the GD's at some pretty high velocities, and they still manage to hold together....
Now you've got me thinkin' about shootin' a deer with my .40 Baby Eagle with some Rangers.......
I usually only like the big hand cannons for deer though, as I shot one last year with a 357 S&W as was not impressed. Told myself at that point I'll stick with my 45 Colt+P or the 480 SRH..........
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I spent several hours at the Washington State Firearms crime lab one afternoon. The lead tech there asked what I carry for caliber and ammo, I responded 40S&W and Speer Glod Dot 180's. His response was "Great combination".
I asked him about the Black Talon ammo and if he had ever investigated the results of the performance on actual shooting victims of the Black Talon round.
He showed me the latest recovered bullet from the neck of a victim. It was a Black Talon 40 S&W bullet that literally appeared to be capable of being reloaded into a case and used again.
Not impressed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
The Speer Gold Dot 180 round is a great round, we have had numerous shootings that can back that ammo's ability. Not just some companies advertisments to make money.
I asked him about the Black Talon ammo and if he had ever investigated the results of the performance on actual shooting victims of the Black Talon round.
He showed me the latest recovered bullet from the neck of a victim. It was a Black Talon 40 S&W bullet that literally appeared to be capable of being reloaded into a case and used again.
Not impressed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
The Speer Gold Dot 180 round is a great round, we have had numerous shootings that can back that ammo's ability. Not just some companies advertisments to make money.
deltahunter
New member
Agree totally. One of the bullets I recovered looked the same way. I even thought about reloading it and trying it at a lower velocity.
blinddog
New member
Back in the mid nineties the anti's got on the "Black Talon"
Name threatened all sorts of crappola about it with the anti gun Presadent we had at that time and the anti gun retoric going on Winchester took them off the market volentarilly just to avoid a bunch more anti gun press involving ammunition. Basicly they removed the black anodizing from the aluminum jackets on handgun bullets the SXT are the same bullet with out the Black coating. Threre rifle bullets still have the coating but I think they gave them a differant name because "Black Talon" sounds so bad, and every one knows how much a name can damage somthing. The previouse post about Golden Sabers, Gold Dots ect. being just as good are true. The science of bullet desighn has really improved in the last fifteen years or so, much because of the Black Talon controversy, and the Miami Shootout.
Name threatened all sorts of crappola about it with the anti gun Presadent we had at that time and the anti gun retoric going on Winchester took them off the market volentarilly just to avoid a bunch more anti gun press involving ammunition. Basicly they removed the black anodizing from the aluminum jackets on handgun bullets the SXT are the same bullet with out the Black coating. Threre rifle bullets still have the coating but I think they gave them a differant name because "Black Talon" sounds so bad, and every one knows how much a name can damage somthing. The previouse post about Golden Sabers, Gold Dots ect. being just as good are true. The science of bullet desighn has really improved in the last fifteen years or so, much because of the Black Talon controversy, and the Miami Shootout.
redeyeddawg
New member
Winchester renamed the rifle cartridges to Failsafe, which I think they still make. I still have a couple boxes of Black Talons in 9mm, for that one occasion when some dirtbag picks the wrong house to break into.
2muchgun
New member
Not sure what to say here. If you saw the ballistic gelatin tests with the BT's, you would be impressed, as the other boolits did well, but the BT's really looked like they tore stuff up bad......
I realize ballistic gelatin is just that, and not real tissue....
I have witnessed first-hand what gold-dots do out of several firearms, and they've not yet failed to impress....
I realize ballistic gelatin is just that, and not real tissue....
I have witnessed first-hand what gold-dots do out of several firearms, and they've not yet failed to impress....
BroncoGlenn
New member
The Winchester Ranger load is the current version of the old Black Talon. While the original version of the Black Talon was good for it's time, improvements have been made and the Ranger is a more reliable and consistent performer than the Black Talon. The Ranger still has the "talon" portion of the jacket.
If you want Black Talons, buy some Rangers and a black magic marker. The only thing the original Black Talons are useful much for anymore is collector appeal. I certainly wouldn't trust my personal defense ammo on some second hand ammo that I have no clue what the storage conditions were.
You can purchase the Ranger ammo in 50 round boxes for much less than most other defensive ammo. What I did was purchase a case of it and run a couple hundred rounds through my carry gun to verify functionality. After all, you can have a bullet that vaporizes the bad guy on contact, but if it doesn't function in your blaster, it isn't of much use.
You can easily find the Ranger ammo for sale on-line. While the package is marked "law enforcement" there is no ATF regulation that prohibits sale of such marked ammo. It is simply a request by the manufacturer to retailers to sell it only to LEOs.
If you want Black Talons, buy some Rangers and a black magic marker. The only thing the original Black Talons are useful much for anymore is collector appeal. I certainly wouldn't trust my personal defense ammo on some second hand ammo that I have no clue what the storage conditions were.
You can purchase the Ranger ammo in 50 round boxes for much less than most other defensive ammo. What I did was purchase a case of it and run a couple hundred rounds through my carry gun to verify functionality. After all, you can have a bullet that vaporizes the bad guy on contact, but if it doesn't function in your blaster, it isn't of much use.
You can easily find the Ranger ammo for sale on-line. While the package is marked "law enforcement" there is no ATF regulation that prohibits sale of such marked ammo. It is simply a request by the manufacturer to retailers to sell it only to LEOs.
CatShooter
New member
Quote:
"... You can easily find the Ranger ammo for sale on-line. While the package is marked "law enforcement" there is no ATF regulation that prohibits sale of such marked ammo. It is simply a request by the manufacturer to retailers to sell it only to LEOs..."
Actually, it's just a joint effort between the legal department and the advertising department.
They sell you the ammo, and say they didn't, in case some jerk makes the headlines..
.
"... You can easily find the Ranger ammo for sale on-line. While the package is marked "law enforcement" there is no ATF regulation that prohibits sale of such marked ammo. It is simply a request by the manufacturer to retailers to sell it only to LEOs..."
Actually, it's just a joint effort between the legal department and the advertising department.
They sell you the ammo, and say they didn't, in case some jerk makes the headlines..
.
Quote:
I think, but not sure, that Winchester caved into Political Correctness on the "Black Talon" name and re-issued basically the same cartridge in their SXT line, which has since been discontinued.
Once in a while I see them at gun shows, at a premium price.
I have a limited amount in .45acp, 10mm, and .44 mag.
Fixed it for you
SXT= Supreme Expanding Technology
or some people say "Extreme Expanding Talon"
I think, but not sure, that Winchester caved into Political Correctness on the "Black Talon" name and re-issued basically the same cartridge in their SXT line, which has since been discontinued.
Once in a while I see them at gun shows, at a premium price.
I have a limited amount in .45acp, 10mm, and .44 mag.
Fixed it for you
SXT= Supreme Expanding Technology
or some people say "Extreme Expanding Talon"
stiff neck
New member
SXT = "Same Xact Thing" as the black talon, just a different name.
And the Win Ranger ammo is not all the same stuff. It's a series of ammo with anything from subsonic practice ammo to high quality duty ammo for LE. The high quality stuff is the Win Ranger SXT. Don't get confused and purchase the cheaper, inferior "practice" Win Ranger ammo. The boxes are identical except for the side flap which has the contents printed on it.
And the Win Ranger ammo is not all the same stuff. It's a series of ammo with anything from subsonic practice ammo to high quality duty ammo for LE. The high quality stuff is the Win Ranger SXT. Don't get confused and purchase the cheaper, inferior "practice" Win Ranger ammo. The boxes are identical except for the side flap which has the contents printed on it.
GC
Well-known member
Wait a minute... First, the old Black Talon was an "ok" bullet, however, it wasn't any better than todays RangerT, Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, Federal HST, ect... Today, it is old technology. BTW, same for the old Hydra Shok.
Regarding Winchester's bullets... The SXT is NOT the same thing as the old Black Talon. Nor, is it the same as the RangerT bullet. They are different and behave differently. RangerT hollowpoints as sold to "LE Only" is top notch stuff! It has performed excellently in media testing in bare gell, denim covered gell, obstructions such as drywall, auto glass, ect. It's biggest drawback was that on occasion it would shed the jacket on tough obstacles. Recently that was solved by bonding the jacket and core of the newest rendition of the RangerT. I have packed the RangerTP, which is the +P 230 gr. hollowpoint in .45 ACP rated at 990 fps for several years and have as much faith in that bullet as any other ACP loading currently on the market.
Regarding Winchester's bullets... The SXT is NOT the same thing as the old Black Talon. Nor, is it the same as the RangerT bullet. They are different and behave differently. RangerT hollowpoints as sold to "LE Only" is top notch stuff! It has performed excellently in media testing in bare gell, denim covered gell, obstructions such as drywall, auto glass, ect. It's biggest drawback was that on occasion it would shed the jacket on tough obstacles. Recently that was solved by bonding the jacket and core of the newest rendition of the RangerT. I have packed the RangerTP, which is the +P 230 gr. hollowpoint in .45 ACP rated at 990 fps for several years and have as much faith in that bullet as any other ACP loading currently on the market.