Theshedhunter
Active member
Originally Posted By: wisconsinteacher...bolt action 30-06...
Better idea in my opinion too.
Better idea in my opinion too.
Short Range Deer Rifle Suggestions??
- Thread starter MasonG
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MotoHunter
New member
What ever you do, don't make fun of the .243, they can get a little snarky around here.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: MasonGI don't know you Hidalgo so I won't argue with you. I do however think that research means nothing compared to in the field experience.
Knowing me means nothing in this conversation. And the research I was referring to was done in the field. Shooting through brush at targets and measuring the deflection (when they could find the impact). Search the net. It's out there for anyone willing to spend the time to look.
Knowing me means nothing in this conversation. And the research I was referring to was done in the field. Shooting through brush at targets and measuring the deflection (when they could find the impact). Search the net. It's out there for anyone willing to spend the time to look.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: tripod3I cant possibly see what a .30-30 can do that a .308 cant.
I can see much that a .308 can do that a .30-30 will struggle trying.
Once again ... old wives' tales and stuff passed down by people who didn't know any better. Anything that has a round nosed bullet (.30-30) was thought to be able to go through thickets like a truck.
I can see much that a .308 can do that a .30-30 will struggle trying.
Once again ... old wives' tales and stuff passed down by people who didn't know any better. Anything that has a round nosed bullet (.30-30) was thought to be able to go through thickets like a truck.
I will say this: I don't have much experience shooting deer in brushy conditions. I'm used to picking holes and not hitting limbs but I've heard my uncles and grandfather talk countless times about shooting deer through brush. They've done it their whole lives. They don't make a habit of it but they've done it and are willing to do it. Maybe it's just because they're old fashioned and don't know any better. They all shot 30-30's and 30-06's for the most part. I think it's because I'm mainly a bow hunter that I don't shoot through stuff hardly ever (and absolutely never with a bow).
As far as my gun search goes I'm strongly leaning towards a model 94 in 375 Win just to have a caliber very different than anything I have.
As far as my gun search goes I'm strongly leaning towards a model 94 in 375 Win just to have a caliber very different than anything I have.
Winny Fan
New member
After all of the bravado and bluster about who knows and doesn't know what, only a couple of things are certain:
1. A bullet (any bullet) has a much greater chance of hitting its intended target where it's supposed to if it doesn't hit anything else along the way. Not a 100% certain chance, but definitely a much greater chance.
2. No amount of "research" into bullet deflection means diddly beyond what each individual "research/field test" showed, simply because bullet deflections are like snow flakes; no two are alike, and they can't be repeated or planned for, especially under field conditions.
As for a brush buster if you need one, I know for a fact that a 400 grain solid bullet fired from a 416 Remington Magnum rifle will bust a lot of brush and briars and still mortally bust a Caper in the exact place where you want him busted. At least it will one time anyway, and one time was all I needed for it to happen at that moment. If it hadn't and the buff had gotten around the brush where I and the professional hunter were at the time about 10 yards away, it would have been hard to miss the buff with a clean shot, but it would have been hard for him to miss us too.
I've never had to worry or think about it too much with a white tail. Pick your shot as well as you can with the rifle you're carrying and hope for the best which means no unseen twigs or grass blades get in the way.
1. A bullet (any bullet) has a much greater chance of hitting its intended target where it's supposed to if it doesn't hit anything else along the way. Not a 100% certain chance, but definitely a much greater chance.
2. No amount of "research" into bullet deflection means diddly beyond what each individual "research/field test" showed, simply because bullet deflections are like snow flakes; no two are alike, and they can't be repeated or planned for, especially under field conditions.
As for a brush buster if you need one, I know for a fact that a 400 grain solid bullet fired from a 416 Remington Magnum rifle will bust a lot of brush and briars and still mortally bust a Caper in the exact place where you want him busted. At least it will one time anyway, and one time was all I needed for it to happen at that moment. If it hadn't and the buff had gotten around the brush where I and the professional hunter were at the time about 10 yards away, it would have been hard to miss the buff with a clean shot, but it would have been hard for him to miss us too.
I've never had to worry or think about it too much with a white tail. Pick your shot as well as you can with the rifle you're carrying and hope for the best which means no unseen twigs or grass blades get in the way.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
I'm not making fun of anyone's elder relatives. Please don't take my statements as such. And even if they did take such shots, that doesn't make it a recommended action nor a responsible shot. We as hunters should never take a shot at a game animal that is marginal and won't result in a clean and ethical kill. Anyone who takes that into consideration wouldn't take a shot through a brush pile.
Winny Fan
New member
Originally Posted By: HidalgoI'm not making fun of anyone's elder relatives. Please don't take my statements as such. And even if they did take such shots, that doesn't make it a recommended action nor a responsible shot. We as hunters should never take a shot at a game animal that is marginal and won't result in a clean and ethical kill. Anyone who takes that into consideration wouldn't take a shot through a brush pile.
You will if it's the better/less lethal to you choice of shooting or not shooting at that moment as the professional hunter is hollering "bust him". Besides, it obviously wasn't an inpenetrable brush pile since we could see him, but it didn't allow one to pick his shot through a hole at a moving critter on the hoof bent on coming around the brush.
As for white tails in eastern Tennessee or central Texas, that's an entirely different story.
You will if it's the better/less lethal to you choice of shooting or not shooting at that moment as the professional hunter is hollering "bust him". Besides, it obviously wasn't an inpenetrable brush pile since we could see him, but it didn't allow one to pick his shot through a hole at a moving critter on the hoof bent on coming around the brush.
As for white tails in eastern Tennessee or central Texas, that's an entirely different story.
Originally Posted By: HidalgoOriginally Posted By: MattkccWhile I agree any bullet will be deflected by hitting brush the real question is by how much, a larger heavy slower bullet will be deflected less if the deer is right behind the bush shouldn't be a problem. If the bush is 20' in front of the deer you can have a problem. To me the bullet tumbling is more of an issue then a bullet deflected 1/2 an inch. Where I hunt in Missouri brush is always an issue, often you can't see small twigs with iron sights or a low powered scope. The best bullet for brush hunting has always been the round ball. A bullet not going to take a 90 degree turn because it hit a twig, hit one with a light high speed bullet and it may fragment.
REALLY? Are you for real? Have you done any research? Have you killed 100's of deer shooting through brush piles in order to post this hogwash? Round bullets do better? Really ??!?!?!? I've heard this exact statement for years and it doesn't hold water. It's been repeated and handed down by folks who have no idea what they were talking about.
Wow, if you can't figure out why a round ball moving in the air is more stable then an elongated bullet all the research in the world isn't going to help, round balls don't tumble. If you don't fill comfortable with a shot don't take it. Where I hunt if I worried about every twig in the woods I'd never take a shot. The real problem hitting a twig isn't that it's going to take a 90 turn, it's likely to become unstable and key hole or tumble. Like I said if the deer is close to the bush shouldn't be a problem. People who hunt in these conditions rely on common sense not ballistics research.
REALLY? Are you for real? Have you done any research? Have you killed 100's of deer shooting through brush piles in order to post this hogwash? Round bullets do better? Really ??!?!?!? I've heard this exact statement for years and it doesn't hold water. It's been repeated and handed down by folks who have no idea what they were talking about.
Wow, if you can't figure out why a round ball moving in the air is more stable then an elongated bullet all the research in the world isn't going to help, round balls don't tumble. If you don't fill comfortable with a shot don't take it. Where I hunt if I worried about every twig in the woods I'd never take a shot. The real problem hitting a twig isn't that it's going to take a 90 turn, it's likely to become unstable and key hole or tumble. Like I said if the deer is close to the bush shouldn't be a problem. People who hunt in these conditions rely on common sense not ballistics research.
Ridgeline17
New member
Originally Posted By: MotoHunterWhat ever you do, don't make fun of the .243, they can get a little snarky around here.
Don't start nothin,won't be nothin. But seriously might consider model 7 in 243. Can't go wrong.
Don't start nothin,won't be nothin. But seriously might consider model 7 in 243. Can't go wrong.
Dixiedog1
Active member
Although there is no such thing as a brush buster that can reliable punch through twigs and have no deflection a brush hunting rifle setup can help you a lot.
The big things are
1) Scope as close to bore axis as possible...ditch the high magnification huge objective scopes here. A 1-4 power is the best and a 2-7 would be my next choice. The closer your aiming point is to the bore the better the odds are you're going to see the branch prior to the shot and wait that extra second to get the clear shot. Also shoot with both eyes open...low mag it's no problem and it will improve your hunting.
2) A big slow bullet is my choice...this isn't to go through the brush and remain on track. It is because I know in heavy cover I'm most likely getting 1 shot only...I want a bullet that hits hard. In my own extensive hunting in heavy cover I've seen what a .44 mag does compared to a 30-06 at close range and here's my take. Factory loadings in both the .44 mag will release a lot more energy into the animal at 50 yard or less ranges than the 30-06. Deer I've shot close with a 30-06/.270/7mm all had the same thing in common the exit wound is nearly the same size as the entrance...the animal will still die fairly quick with a perfect shot but a shot slightly off it's mark is less lethal. Now a .44 has a 1/2" hole on the entrance a 2.5"+ hole on the exit with a typical whitetail and with exception of one buck that ran less than 30 yard all my .44 mag deer have been bang flops. I'd grab a .44 mag with a 240 gr hp bullet over any other rifle out there for a deer hunt where shots are limited to 100 yards or less. I've shot a good number of deer up here in Maine and 50 yards is a far shot for one in the cover I hunt.
3) Get a rifle with a stock that fits....you won't have a long time to get ready....you see the deer and get about 2-10 seconds to make the call on if you want to take it and then get ready/execute the shot. If you have a gun that fits like a glove that you're not going to be adjusting your head up and down...left right to get a good weld you get a lot more time to execute the shot.
I have 4 guns that I put in the brush buster category that will have a spot in my safe for many more years
1) Ruger 99/44 Deerfield carbine in .44 mag...this is the rotary mag carbine Ruger offered for a short time from 99-05(?) To me it's a priceless rifle and has taken a good number of deer. Lightweight, fast handling and accurate.
2) Ruger 96/44 lever action carbine in .44 mag....I had one many years ago and parted ways with it due to it not being accurate..I had been on the search for another since that day and finally got one this year and this one is a shooter. These rifles were made from 96'-98'(?) They are the nicest lever gun I've ever owned....short throw lever and very smooth. Again lightweigh, fast handling and accurate.
3) Ruger 77/44 bolt action carbine in .44 mag...This one is another more recent acquisition and it also falls into the lightweight, fast handling and accurate category. I purchased this one more for a beater rifle as they are available..the 99/44 and 96/44 are very difficult to replace and if you do it will cost you a good deal to get one. The limited availability and hog hunters snatching them all up makes the price very high....the bolt gun can still be had new for around $700 in a stainless/synthetic variety which is great for all weather.
4) Marlin .35 Remington....although I feel the .44 mag is superior I've shot several deer with the .35 Rem also and they were all bang flops...it's another heavy bullet that moves slow. The Marlin lever gun fits me well and is very accurate...I prefer the Rugers for hunting as they are all a bit lighter weight and faster handling to me but the Marlin has proven itself to be very good for up close hunting.
Now about "accuracy" that I refer to....When I call a deer hunting rifle accurate I'm talking about a rifle that I can place the first 3 shots in a 5" circle at 100 yards offhand...I'm not interested in what the rifle does off a bench because that's not how I'll be shooting when I hunt. At 50 yards I expect it to be within 3"...I regularly shoot clays for practice at distances ranging from 25 to 50 yards and expect to hit the 100% of the time at those ranges. I've noticed a good number of the chest beating sub MOA crowd only shoot their rifles from a bench....nothing about it if that's their thing but for hunting that's useless...you can have you 10+ lb hunting rifle that you can't shoot without sticks or some other rest if that tickles your fancy but in the big woods you'll be coming home empty handed most of the time.
3)
The big things are
1) Scope as close to bore axis as possible...ditch the high magnification huge objective scopes here. A 1-4 power is the best and a 2-7 would be my next choice. The closer your aiming point is to the bore the better the odds are you're going to see the branch prior to the shot and wait that extra second to get the clear shot. Also shoot with both eyes open...low mag it's no problem and it will improve your hunting.
2) A big slow bullet is my choice...this isn't to go through the brush and remain on track. It is because I know in heavy cover I'm most likely getting 1 shot only...I want a bullet that hits hard. In my own extensive hunting in heavy cover I've seen what a .44 mag does compared to a 30-06 at close range and here's my take. Factory loadings in both the .44 mag will release a lot more energy into the animal at 50 yard or less ranges than the 30-06. Deer I've shot close with a 30-06/.270/7mm all had the same thing in common the exit wound is nearly the same size as the entrance...the animal will still die fairly quick with a perfect shot but a shot slightly off it's mark is less lethal. Now a .44 has a 1/2" hole on the entrance a 2.5"+ hole on the exit with a typical whitetail and with exception of one buck that ran less than 30 yard all my .44 mag deer have been bang flops. I'd grab a .44 mag with a 240 gr hp bullet over any other rifle out there for a deer hunt where shots are limited to 100 yards or less. I've shot a good number of deer up here in Maine and 50 yards is a far shot for one in the cover I hunt.
3) Get a rifle with a stock that fits....you won't have a long time to get ready....you see the deer and get about 2-10 seconds to make the call on if you want to take it and then get ready/execute the shot. If you have a gun that fits like a glove that you're not going to be adjusting your head up and down...left right to get a good weld you get a lot more time to execute the shot.
I have 4 guns that I put in the brush buster category that will have a spot in my safe for many more years
1) Ruger 99/44 Deerfield carbine in .44 mag...this is the rotary mag carbine Ruger offered for a short time from 99-05(?) To me it's a priceless rifle and has taken a good number of deer. Lightweight, fast handling and accurate.
2) Ruger 96/44 lever action carbine in .44 mag....I had one many years ago and parted ways with it due to it not being accurate..I had been on the search for another since that day and finally got one this year and this one is a shooter. These rifles were made from 96'-98'(?) They are the nicest lever gun I've ever owned....short throw lever and very smooth. Again lightweigh, fast handling and accurate.
3) Ruger 77/44 bolt action carbine in .44 mag...This one is another more recent acquisition and it also falls into the lightweight, fast handling and accurate category. I purchased this one more for a beater rifle as they are available..the 99/44 and 96/44 are very difficult to replace and if you do it will cost you a good deal to get one. The limited availability and hog hunters snatching them all up makes the price very high....the bolt gun can still be had new for around $700 in a stainless/synthetic variety which is great for all weather.
4) Marlin .35 Remington....although I feel the .44 mag is superior I've shot several deer with the .35 Rem also and they were all bang flops...it's another heavy bullet that moves slow. The Marlin lever gun fits me well and is very accurate...I prefer the Rugers for hunting as they are all a bit lighter weight and faster handling to me but the Marlin has proven itself to be very good for up close hunting.
Now about "accuracy" that I refer to....When I call a deer hunting rifle accurate I'm talking about a rifle that I can place the first 3 shots in a 5" circle at 100 yards offhand...I'm not interested in what the rifle does off a bench because that's not how I'll be shooting when I hunt. At 50 yards I expect it to be within 3"...I regularly shoot clays for practice at distances ranging from 25 to 50 yards and expect to hit the 100% of the time at those ranges. I've noticed a good number of the chest beating sub MOA crowd only shoot their rifles from a bench....nothing about it if that's their thing but for hunting that's useless...you can have you 10+ lb hunting rifle that you can't shoot without sticks or some other rest if that tickles your fancy but in the big woods you'll be coming home empty handed most of the time.
3)
Chupathingy
New member
What have we all learned from this thread? I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. What have those of us capable of learning, learned from this thread?
I learned that a round ball is more stable in air than an elongated projectile. This site is friggin awesome! Such a wealth of shooting knowledge based on internet rumor and hillcountry myth rather than hocus pocus mumbo jumbo science.
Chupa
I learned that a round ball is more stable in air than an elongated projectile. This site is friggin awesome! Such a wealth of shooting knowledge based on internet rumor and hillcountry myth rather than hocus pocus mumbo jumbo science.
Chupa
2muchgun
New member
I have hunted in the thick stuff for decades. Have killed multiple deer with 223, 243, 7mm-08, 308, 30-06, 35 Rem, 444 Marlin, I won't go on. There's many more.
Point being, they all work with the right bullets/shot placement. Pick one. But pick one in a light, fast handling, accurate little package with a 3-9x40 scope at the very, very, largest. I like the 1.5-5x20s and 2-7x33s both with heavy duplexes, when hunting the thick stuff. But use others as well.
The tang safety Ruger 77 (as mentioned) has taken a bunch of deer and continues to do so. With 100gr SGKs it has produced some very fast kills. As for 30-30s, I have 4 of them, and don't use any of them. Not that they won't work. A bolt action 30-30 would be LAME though, IMO.
Given that you have a 30-30 and a 243, something like a 338 Federal would be pretty cool in a bolt gun. I do not own one, because I have too many rifles as it is, but think it would really shine in the thick stuff. It can also be loaded to shoot much flatter than many may think. Or just get a 7mm-08 or 308. Can't go wrong with either.
As for your 30-30, if it is not a pre-64, use it and don't sweat it. I regularly hunt with 2-3 pre-64 Winchesters (not 94s or 30-30s) and love them both. That is what they were made for.....
Point being, they all work with the right bullets/shot placement. Pick one. But pick one in a light, fast handling, accurate little package with a 3-9x40 scope at the very, very, largest. I like the 1.5-5x20s and 2-7x33s both with heavy duplexes, when hunting the thick stuff. But use others as well.
The tang safety Ruger 77 (as mentioned) has taken a bunch of deer and continues to do so. With 100gr SGKs it has produced some very fast kills. As for 30-30s, I have 4 of them, and don't use any of them. Not that they won't work. A bolt action 30-30 would be LAME though, IMO.
Given that you have a 30-30 and a 243, something like a 338 Federal would be pretty cool in a bolt gun. I do not own one, because I have too many rifles as it is, but think it would really shine in the thick stuff. It can also be loaded to shoot much flatter than many may think. Or just get a 7mm-08 or 308. Can't go wrong with either.
As for your 30-30, if it is not a pre-64, use it and don't sweat it. I regularly hunt with 2-3 pre-64 Winchesters (not 94s or 30-30s) and love them both. That is what they were made for.....
Originally Posted By: Dixiedog1 In my own extensive hunting in heavy cover I've seen what a .44 mag does compared to a 30-06 at close range and here's my take. Factory loadings in both the .44 mag will release a lot more energy into the animal at 50 yard or less ranges than the 30-06. Deer I've shot close with a 30-06/.270/7mm all had the same thing in common the exit wound is nearly the same size as the entrance...the animal will still die fairly quick with a perfect shot but a shot slightly off it's mark is less lethal.
You know, I've heard this phenomenon mentioned many times, and I never could understand how it works.
Why the heck does a high-velocity rifle bullet that's designed to release more energy at higher velocities have to wait until it gets further downrange and traveling at a lower velocity so that it'll release more energy than when it was traveling at a higher velocity?
If it releases more energy at 100 yards than it does at 50 yards, does that mean that it'll release even more energy at 300 yards when it's going even slower?
You know, I've heard this phenomenon mentioned many times, and I never could understand how it works.
Why the heck does a high-velocity rifle bullet that's designed to release more energy at higher velocities have to wait until it gets further downrange and traveling at a lower velocity so that it'll release more energy than when it was traveling at a higher velocity?
If it releases more energy at 100 yards than it does at 50 yards, does that mean that it'll release even more energy at 300 yards when it's going even slower?
2muchgun
New member
I think what he said and what he actually meant are not quite the same thing. As in, it "didn't come out right".
Based on energy figures alone, the 30-06 is gonna have (roughly) 33-35% more energy @ 50yds, given average 30-06/44 mag rifle loads. The 30-06 wins the "energy battle" every time.
But as we all know, energy alone does not tell the whole tale of lethality. The 44 mag will expand to a much larger diameter and make a bigger hole. Frontal diameter does matter. One need only look at the energy figures of big-bore handguns to figure this out. They are nowhere near the energy figures of rifle cartridges. Yet kill very effectively, nonetheless. Because they have one thing going for them that cannot be ignored----that being sheer size.
As for which one kills deer faster, even I have a hard time saying after using both many times. They both work. Every time....
Based on energy figures alone, the 30-06 is gonna have (roughly) 33-35% more energy @ 50yds, given average 30-06/44 mag rifle loads. The 30-06 wins the "energy battle" every time.
But as we all know, energy alone does not tell the whole tale of lethality. The 44 mag will expand to a much larger diameter and make a bigger hole. Frontal diameter does matter. One need only look at the energy figures of big-bore handguns to figure this out. They are nowhere near the energy figures of rifle cartridges. Yet kill very effectively, nonetheless. Because they have one thing going for them that cannot be ignored----that being sheer size.
As for which one kills deer faster, even I have a hard time saying after using both many times. They both work. Every time....
calling4life
New member
Double rifle in your flavor of high meplat tear inducing caliber, such as 458Lott, perhaps the 500 nitro express; anyways, quick, it goes bang twice, and many people crazier than you or I stake their life on it.
Bulletproof vest won't even help whatever you're punishing with it, it's like getting hit by a semi, pulling a train, being pushed by several space shuttles.
Plus, and this is great, good ones start around $8-$10k
Bulletproof vest won't even help whatever you're punishing with it, it's like getting hit by a semi, pulling a train, being pushed by several space shuttles.
Plus, and this is great, good ones start around $8-$10k
