Shoulder bump question (added some more info)

I use the inserts of the Stoney Point / Hornady comparators to check shoulder setback. For instance, the .375 insert will give you something to work with for .264 Win Mag. It doesn't matter where the elusive "datum line" is, just use an insert that hits close to the middle of the shoulder.

The bottom picture is the shell holder jaws of a Co-Ax press. Using mine, it is possible to create up to 0.010" headspace on .223 cases, which I somehow managed to do and it led to case head separations. Measuring a few cases using the .30-cal insert with my comparator, I was able to readjust my FL die to bump the shoulder about 0.002 inch and my new cases will now fit the chamber nicely.

FL does will bump the shoulder the correct amount when properly set up, but the shoulder actually will flow forward a bit just before the bump. This does nothing good for case life. I've addressed this by acquiring Lee collet dies for almost all my rifle calibers. I always use a neck die first and check chamber fit, resorting to the properly adjusted FL die only when necessary.
 
all you have to do is measure off of the shoulder,i only have a case gauge for the .223,all others i measure with other things,with calipers
the main thing is to measure the cartridge after its fired in your gun,then set it up with the die,for ar15 i bump the shoulder back .002-.003,for MY bolt guns i set it up .002 longer
 
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Originally Posted By: ninehorsesBelted magnums sometimes require a special die to deal with the belt or the area just in front of. When the OP said Encore, alarm bells went off. Break open actions can create special problems. I'm remembering a long ago post about this very subject. Does anyone remember the guy that made these special dies?

I think it's probably this guy:

http://www.larrywillis.com/300winmag.html

I just started loading for a WM and I haven't run into the problem yet, but I've only got a couple of loads on new brass.
 
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksOk, I have done some home work. What are your thoughts on the hornady comparator set and their headspace guage set up. I see that I need some tools.

I don't use the Hornady, but I believe they should work just fine.
I use the Sinclair just because they were the first ones I found after a partial case head separation let me know I needed to do some homework.
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I think the whole "cam over" deal is just a way to let you know that your case is pushed into your die as far as it will possibly go because the shell holder and the base of your
die are jammed together as tight as they will go.
When you measure brass fired from your rifle like josebd said you'll find that camming over your press is not a "one size fits all" solution. Every case/chamber/die/press combination has been different in my experience.
I've had several chamber/die combinations that were apparently cut to minimum specs so much that I couldn't push the fired brass far enough in the die to even touch the shoulders even when I "cammed over" the press so hard I thought I was going to break something. That's why I posted the picture of the shell holder jaws from my Forster press. If you look closely you'll see that I had a guy with a precision surface grinder take .010 off the plates so I could push the brass in far enough for the .0015 or .002 shoulder bump that I like.

I know everybody has their own way of doing things, but I can't imagine sizing brass without having a way to measure the results.

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I don't think I would necessarily call camming over a gimmick or farce...unless what you mean is that just because it cams over that will set the headspace length properly. Usually it does, but I have found that I can vary the headspace length by about .002" depending on how "hard" or "soft" the setup cams over. I have also found that once set it will tend to remain set for a while but it always changes by a thousandth or two if I am re-sizing several hundred or more cases at a time.
As far as belted magnums go, I have had a few rifles come into my shop that had bad chambers. That is to say they were headspaced properly on the belt, but the shoulder length cut into the chamber was as much as .020" longer than it should have been. All three of these rifles suffered accuracy problems. It had to be a bad reamer at the factory.
One thing not mentioned in all this thread is how important it is to set the shoulder length or headspace length of the case correctly if you are using one of those new "trim off the shoulder" type trimmers like the WFT.
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesBelted magnums sometimes require a special die to deal with the belt or the area just in front of. When the OP said Encore, alarm bells went off. Break open actions can create special problems. I'm remembering a long ago post about this very subject. Does anyone remember the guy that made these special dies?

I have one that works that was mentioned earlier.
INNOVATIVE TECHNOLOGIES www.larrywillis.com

On "cam over" I don't. I just adjust to size without the extra effort. If the shoulders don't set back enough when making good contact with the shell holder I grind about 0.010 off the top of the SH. Much easier than doing the die and if I ruin it I'm only out $8.00.



Geg
 
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Thanks fellas, I will order up the hornady kits and start checking things better. I have had case head seperations with my contender in 35 remington. All of the ihmsa guys that I talked to said that the brass would only last 4 or 5 shots. These steps probably would help that out. Live and Learn.
 
These case gauges are super for shoulder measurements : Whidden case gauge
I use the 6.8 SPC case gauge for 6x6.8 and also have one for 223.
I needed exact shoulder setback for the wildcat & this gauge delivered.
 
Think I fixed the problem. Took my brass to a buddy's house and used his annealing machine,(sweet and easy I might add) and annealed all my brass. Ran it through my sizing dies and it chambers and extracts easy Now to begin reloading again and see what happens.
 
Bump die = bumping back the shoulder only.

Cheap solution is the Forester/Bonanza std neck sizing die, has always been a shoulder bumper die!!!

Saves a lot of wear and tear on cases just bumping shoulders back and this is usually the culprit in tight cases when the bolt is hard to close. I only FL size when the Web needs reducing. The FL sizer pushes the shoulder back further than you would like in order to reduce the dia of the neck.

In a perfect world, you would have a full length sizer cut in half, only reducing the web, and another die to push back the shoulder....creating two separate operations.

Questions?
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogThink I fixed the problem. Took my brass to a buddy's house and used his annealing machine,(sweet and easy I might add) and annealed all my brass. Ran it through my sizing dies and it chambers and extracts easy Now to begin reloading again and see what happens.

Actually, you just put a band-aid on it.
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You have the shoulder back so it chambers easily, but did you size the brass too much? You really need to get some gauges.
 
Originally Posted By: Hidalgo

Actually, you just put a band-aid on it.
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You have the shoulder back so it chambers easily, but did you size the brass too much? You really need to get some gauges.

Correct again.
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FW707 and some others have already said this, but I'll say it again since you must have missed it by thinking that you've rectified the situation:

Annealing is great, but getting gauges will allow you to size your brass the MINIMUM amount that still allows it to fit in your rifle. This results in way less stress on your brass, prolonging the useful life and also minimizing the possibility of a brass failure. And that's NO FUN. Ackleyman started a thread about his experience with it. Don't go there!

I'm not trying to rag on you. We're trying to help protect you.
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I understand and appreciate everyones concerns on safety. Thank you. Can I get these in a set or do I purchase as individual pieces per caliber?
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogI understand and appreciate everyones concerns on safety. Thank you. Can I get these in a set or do I purchase as individual pieces per caliber?

Look them up on the Sinclair website. You can buy them as you need them.
Just remember you'll need the little gadget that attaches them to your calipers, and keep in mind that bump gauges measure brass and comparators measure your bullet seating depth to the ogive of the bullet on a loaded round.
I'm not trying to sell the Sinclair over the Hornady or any of the others. They are just the ones I found first and they are very high quality and work great.

 
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Originally Posted By: GLShooter
INNOVATIVE TECHNOLOGIES www.larrywillis.com


This same place, Innovative Technologies, has a headspace gauge that may be easier for you to use and will eliminate the need for so many different inserts.
 
Originally Posted By: B23Originally Posted By: GLShooter
INNOVATIVE TECHNOLOGIES www.larrywillis.com


This same place, Innovative Technologies, has a headspace gauge that may be easier for you to use and will eliminate the need for so many different inserts.

That's a neat unit. A bit slow but I like the universal approach.

Greg
 
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