Originally Posted By: GLShooterOriginally Posted By: Texas SwiftyGL SHOOTER,
I'd like to ask you a question. You stated & many others have also, that you rarely shoot a 3 shot group. I've been shooting and reloading the best part of 50 years. When I'm searching & loading to find a correct combination, I never shoot anything but 3 shot groups. I just can't see the point in shooting 5 round groups wasting time and money until you find one that will group 3 shots. I maybe doing wrong but I keep shooting 3 rounds until I get a 1 hole group then and only then will I start with 5 round groups. If you'll explain, I'm not too old yet to learn.
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Varminter .223,
I don't know if it's the caliber or the gun that you might be have problems with. I've got 6 AR's in 204 & 223 and 2 of them and 2 of them only, 1-223 & 1-204 both with WOA barrels will shoot .5 5 shot groups @ 100 consistently unless I pull one myself or the wind is a factor. That being said, as msinc mentioned, I only shoot Berger's and I do believe they will truly show what your gun is capable of.
My 2$ worth,
Jim D
Statistical number enter into the equation. Three shots will often look super but then when you put those extra two in there the variables start to appear and make that slight difference.
Ideally to get it right I believe the calculated number was thirteen shots according to the statisticians. I have a short ton of targets with great three shot groups until you add in the extra two and find that 0.188 is now a 0.222 or that 0.375 is now a 0.479. Thirteen is way past reasonable for cost and time so five it is.
BTW I usually will shoot two five shot groups at each charge weight so I can instant verification of the load viability. Shooting time is very truncated here when it's 100+ and I'm getting old.
Additionally most of the shooting I've done centers around multiples of five. I am looking at laying on my belly and shooting 20 shots in a string at extended distances and if the load won't hold up to five it probably won't hold up to twenty.
I will shoot threes under two circumstances. The first being in cartridge gotta have some pressure indicators some accuracy data. When I helped developed the American 30 three of us were shooting independently and we needed the numbers in a hurry. I probably shot over 300 loads on my end doing my own and verifying Ritch's data. I compiled hundreds of groups and chronograph speeds on that and we walked away with a winner.
The second reason is if I have a real barrel burner on my hands like a 20-250 or a 22-243. Barrel life on a $400.00 tube of less than 1,000 rounds is not one that I want to just throw away with five per group. My load development is down and dirty with those. I'll start right up near the top as I have determined from all the input I can get or the research I can do. My goal is 50 rounds MAX down the tube band at that point I hope to have a good load.
I spent years teaching how to put a bullet on target the first time every time all day long , I had to say that to keep up with the keyboard cowboys, with classes as long as three weeks. I made sure my students, and myself, did their part every time. Our task was not sport but the deadly serious part on the other end of the scale. More than a few went to the mountains and sandbox during that time. We shot groups under pressure to get the guys use to the need for speed in every aspect. The guns and ammunition had to hold up under those five and and ten shot strings.
There is a theory/saying that three shots prove the gun and five shots prove the shooter. All I know for sure is one shot under pressure proves the total package. Sometimes that comes on a PD and others times it comes on a huge 0.5 MOA X-ring out there at 500+. I want to know that shot #1,shot #5 or shot #20 are going to be right there.
So my theories and at the end of the day we all have our standards. It can vary from rifle to rifle and cartridge to cartridge. As long as we all end up where we want even the one shot group shooter can be a champion.
Greg
Well stated Greg. The rifle and shooter are a team as important as the ammunition and the rifle. I often find that the students that I am training have a bit of a loss of attention on round #2 or #3. They often rush it, getting out of their rhythm, the result being a flier. Temp of the gun is important as well. Most of us don't have to shoot the rifles until they are blazing hot but as the rifle heats up it is going to change it's POI a little bit. Cold bore is often the best indicator.
