Varmint Recticle vs. Scope with turret?
- Thread starter jdl5ak
- Start date
SodakJim
New member
Your going to get a bunch of opinions on this I would guess. The thing is, you can have both. Kenton Industries makes aftermarket knobs that fit the Leupolds. They have 4 configurations: Hunter, Military, Speed Dial, and Target. They can be cutomized to any load your want to use. If you use very many loads of different trajectories they can get a bit pricey. I have been wanting to try these out, but have not had the time yet. The target turrets are available on the VX-III and MK-4 Leupolds.
Check the Link:
http://www.kentonindustries.com/pics/picbytype/
Check the Link:
http://www.kentonindustries.com/pics/picbytype/
Welcome to the board AK.
It all depends. The ret's are set to velocity. If your rifle is exactly what the scope is set for it is perfect. However, doubt it that will happen. It depends on the size of target you will be shooting at. If it is a large target you will hit is somewhere. If a small target slightly off will mean a miss.
What you have to do is shoot your rifle/load at each distance and see how close it is or at what exact range the scope crosshairs...200,300,400, etc are and mark the range for reference.
With turrets, first you have to have a really good scope that is repeatable for click adjustment. This is the problem. There are only 3 or 4 that work correctly and the rest are from close to not even in the ballpark.
Ones that work require you to shoot the same 200,300,400, etc and mark the click adjustments for reference. Then all you have to do is laser range, click, and shoot.
If you know your ret, it is much faster and will be the same everytime using the same load at the same vel.
It all depends. The ret's are set to velocity. If your rifle is exactly what the scope is set for it is perfect. However, doubt it that will happen. It depends on the size of target you will be shooting at. If it is a large target you will hit is somewhere. If a small target slightly off will mean a miss.
What you have to do is shoot your rifle/load at each distance and see how close it is or at what exact range the scope crosshairs...200,300,400, etc are and mark the range for reference.
With turrets, first you have to have a really good scope that is repeatable for click adjustment. This is the problem. There are only 3 or 4 that work correctly and the rest are from close to not even in the ballpark.
Ones that work require you to shoot the same 200,300,400, etc and mark the click adjustments for reference. Then all you have to do is laser range, click, and shoot.
If you know your ret, it is much faster and will be the same everytime using the same load at the same vel.
2muchgun
New member
With some companies, if you know the ballistic coefficient of your bullet, and the velocity of the load, they can tell you pretty closely what each designation should represent.
Keep it simple. Target turrets with a ballistic chart on the buttstock is hard to beat. Aim at hair, not air......
Keep it simple. Target turrets with a ballistic chart on the buttstock is hard to beat. Aim at hair, not air......
2muchgun
New member
Not to be a PITA, but the varmint hunter reticle is for those who can't spin turrets. It is too busy for me. I can like a simple Leupold LR duplex or Burris ballistic plex type reticle better. Or a mil-dot(although it is for ranging more than holdover) A LOT of guys I talk to prefer Leupolds with tall elevation turrets, but standard windage turrets. I too can like this idea.......
jimanaz
New member
Quote:
but the varmint hunter reticle is for those who can't spin turrets.
Or maybe for those who don't care to spin turrets. Personally, I'd rather be shooting than dialing in a calling situation. For instance, you call in a double and knock dog 1 down at 50 yds. Dog 2 highballs but stops for 1 more look at the top of a ridge at ~400 yds. With a Varmint Hunter reticle you place the appropriate X on dog 2 and begin launch procedure. With turrets, you guess or dial. Maybe you guess right, maybe dog 2 goes over the top while you're dialing.
On a PD town turrets are a definite advantage, on coyotes the VH reticle will get you on fur quickly and simply.
but the varmint hunter reticle is for those who can't spin turrets.
Or maybe for those who don't care to spin turrets. Personally, I'd rather be shooting than dialing in a calling situation. For instance, you call in a double and knock dog 1 down at 50 yds. Dog 2 highballs but stops for 1 more look at the top of a ridge at ~400 yds. With a Varmint Hunter reticle you place the appropriate X on dog 2 and begin launch procedure. With turrets, you guess or dial. Maybe you guess right, maybe dog 2 goes over the top while you're dialing.
On a PD town turrets are a definite advantage, on coyotes the VH reticle will get you on fur quickly and simply.
sandman22250
Active member
I like my Leupold MRK 4
Ridge Runner
New member
which ever is faster for you will work to about 700 yds, after that the only way to make consistant hits are to spin.
also takes alot of shooting to regulate the reticle to your load, unless you can get the exact substentions from loopy.
nice lookin glass sandman, whats the can on top in front of the elevation turret?
RR
also takes alot of shooting to regulate the reticle to your load, unless you can get the exact substentions from loopy.
nice lookin glass sandman, whats the can on top in front of the elevation turret?
RR
sandman22250
Active member
Thats got all my shooting data it has a tab on it you pull it like a tape measure and you can write your data on it and you can use it without moving your head
Linefinder
New member
I own a Leupold VXIII 6-20X with Varminter Reticle. They had just come out when I purchased it, and I paid ~$850 for it.
Not only didn't my loads match the stadia in the reticle, but I never could tweak a load that would match it. It's knobs get twisted a lot nowadays. About the only feature I really like about this scope is the side-focus knob.
OTOH, about 6 months after I purchased this scope, I bought a VXII Competition Series 6-18X with the 1/8 MOA Target Dot reticle for ~$480. I liked this scope so much, within a month I'd purchased another. The Leupold with the Varminter reticle wasn't even a consideration for me anymore.
Of course, my opinions are based upon pdog shooting, not 'yote shooting. That could possibly make a difference, but personally, I'll not purchase another BDC-type reticle again.
Mike
Not only didn't my loads match the stadia in the reticle, but I never could tweak a load that would match it. It's knobs get twisted a lot nowadays. About the only feature I really like about this scope is the side-focus knob.
OTOH, about 6 months after I purchased this scope, I bought a VXII Competition Series 6-18X with the 1/8 MOA Target Dot reticle for ~$480. I liked this scope so much, within a month I'd purchased another. The Leupold with the Varminter reticle wasn't even a consideration for me anymore.
Of course, my opinions are based upon pdog shooting, not 'yote shooting. That could possibly make a difference, but personally, I'll not purchase another BDC-type reticle again.
Mike
I use a lot of ballistic and rangefinding reticles for intermediate range shooting, and the Leupold system(VHR and turret) is 1 of the best, IMO. The problem with the 6.5-20X and 8.5-25X with VHR is that the large triangle that is set up for the "close to correct" subtension for faster, flatter shooting varmint cartridges and bullets is calibrated for 15X, not the highest power. This really sort of negates the quick application of a ballistic reticle, since u must now adjust the power ring to the correct power (subtension) for the zeros to be close to correct when preparing for a long shot. The scope can be applied at the highest power, but the problem then is that u will only have a total of about 7.0 MOA to the lower post tip, and that's not much really. Chances r that the reticle won't match any trajectory evenly enuf to be intuitive then. U'll have to calculate zeros, test, correct, then check once again to be sure of your zeros. Then u have to calculate an interpolative system for the in-between stadia zeros as well. That takes study time, calculating time, and range time before you're ready to go hunting. A lot of work, but it can work well enuf. If u send the scope back in for a turret (elevation only), then u can apply the reticle and turret comeups together for intermediate and long-range shooting. That reticle tho in combination with a turret system can be very effective at long-range, and has excellent windage reference (espeially in the 4.5-14X). I have 1 on a Savage Striker 243 WSSM, and i was able to kill a 530 yd. coyote in a 10 mph 3 o'clock wind a couple years ago, by using a calc'd system as described--but mine's a 4.5-14X VX-III, where the reticle is calibrated for the highest power (doesn't help me for an intuitive system since i'm shooting a handgun, but it still nets me 9.3 MOA to the lower post, and turret comeups beyond that).
CatShooter
New member
There is a lot of good info here, and both sides are right... some don't like the reticle approach, and they have GOOD reasons.
Most of the time, the reticle does NOT match the cartridge and/or load you are using.
If you work out a personal drop sheet, so that the 300 yd stadia is actually equal to 237 yds, then you will have to write that stuff down, and that defeats the whole purpose of the ranging reticle - if you have to write it down and look it up in the field, then it would be way easier (and more accurate) to just use dial-able turrets.
But some guys DO like the ranging reticles, and they CAN work, IF:
You can find or make a load that matches the reticle in even 100yd increments. You can do this by taking the reticle spacing (available in the maker's catalogue), and working out a load that has the same drop - you might have to use a different power setting to make it all work out.
The ranging reticles DO have a place on targets that are furtive (for those that live in Rio Linda, that means sneakie and on the move near cover) and difficult to keep in sight for any length of time.
I have a Browning BAR in 25-06 on order, and by some magical coincidence, the Leupold VHR reticle exactly matches the 85gr Nosler load out to 500yds, with no more than 2" error at 500.
I'll use the reticle when I have little time or the beastie is on the move, and I'll dial when I have time.
If the reticle didn't match, I wouldn't waste the money.
.
Most of the time, the reticle does NOT match the cartridge and/or load you are using.
If you work out a personal drop sheet, so that the 300 yd stadia is actually equal to 237 yds, then you will have to write that stuff down, and that defeats the whole purpose of the ranging reticle - if you have to write it down and look it up in the field, then it would be way easier (and more accurate) to just use dial-able turrets.
But some guys DO like the ranging reticles, and they CAN work, IF:
You can find or make a load that matches the reticle in even 100yd increments. You can do this by taking the reticle spacing (available in the maker's catalogue), and working out a load that has the same drop - you might have to use a different power setting to make it all work out.
The ranging reticles DO have a place on targets that are furtive (for those that live in Rio Linda, that means sneakie and on the move near cover) and difficult to keep in sight for any length of time.
I have a Browning BAR in 25-06 on order, and by some magical coincidence, the Leupold VHR reticle exactly matches the 85gr Nosler load out to 500yds, with no more than 2" error at 500.
I'll use the reticle when I have little time or the beastie is on the move, and I'll dial when I have time.
If the reticle didn't match, I wouldn't waste the money.
.
venatic
Well-known member
I have two of the Varmit Reticle Leupold's one on a .223 and one on a Tac20. I followed the sightin at 200yds then go to 500yds and shoot holding deadon with the 200yd crosshair marked the target where the bullets grouped then adjusted the scope power until the 500yd crosshair was on the group.On the .223 that turned out to be 10X with the Tac20 it was 14X(large triangle). Then shooting at 300 and 400 the .223 was on the money the Tac20 was slightly high but close enough for me.Clear as mud right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gifI think the FURtive targets better watch out,no dail-a-prayer turrents for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
SamSpade
New member
The 3rd alternative that I don't think any one has mentioned is to first find the load and bullet you will be using and have a reticle company put dots or lines in according to your trajectory.
My problem with clicking turrets is that there is not to many scopes made including Leupold that their clicks run true to values they say. And........the mechanisms ware out.
My problem with clicking turrets is that there is not to many scopes made including Leupold that their clicks run true to values they say. And........the mechanisms ware out.
2muchgun
New member
Quote:
Quote:
but the varmint hunter reticle is for those who can't spin turrets.
Or maybe for those who don't care to spin turrets. Personally, I'd rather be shooting than dialing in a calling situation. For instance, you call in a double and knock dog 1 down at 50 yds. Dog 2 highballs but stops for 1 more look at the top of a ridge at ~400 yds. With a Varmint Hunter reticle you place the appropriate X on dog 2 and begin launch procedure. With turrets, you guess or dial. Maybe you guess right, maybe dog 2 goes over the top while you're dialing.
On a PD town turrets are a definite advantage, on coyotes the VH reticle will get you on fur quickly and simply.
I can fully understand this line of thinking. There is just a certain quality about being able to not guess and hold dead on..........
Quote:
but the varmint hunter reticle is for those who can't spin turrets.
Or maybe for those who don't care to spin turrets. Personally, I'd rather be shooting than dialing in a calling situation. For instance, you call in a double and knock dog 1 down at 50 yds. Dog 2 highballs but stops for 1 more look at the top of a ridge at ~400 yds. With a Varmint Hunter reticle you place the appropriate X on dog 2 and begin launch procedure. With turrets, you guess or dial. Maybe you guess right, maybe dog 2 goes over the top while you're dialing.
On a PD town turrets are a definite advantage, on coyotes the VH reticle will get you on fur quickly and simply.
I can fully understand this line of thinking. There is just a certain quality about being able to not guess and hold dead on..........
sandman22250
Active member
I have used M1 scopes in the Army now i have the mark 4 with mill dot on my rifle due to how well they worked i did not spend the money for this scope to look at the turrets if they where out i will buy a new one just like when i burn out the barrel on my rifle or should i just not shoot it
Ridge Runner
New member
I took a deer 2 wks ago by dialing a loopy mark 4, poi was within 1.5-2" of POA, the range was 781 yards.
RR
RR
Hangtime
New member
Quote:
Right now I am looking at the VX-III 6.5-20x40mm Long Range scope. It dosent have a turret but it does have the Varmint reticle. Like I said before I am new to the long range scope on a smaller caliber. All I have ever shot was a 3x9 on a .338.
I have the very same scope on order, and am eagerly awaiting its arrival to check out its performance on my .223 AR main PD rig.
I'm probably opening myself up for some ridicule, which I don't really mind if it comes from shooters that have first hand experience with what I'm about to describe, and not someone repeating what they heard from their 3rd cousins brother in law, etc.
I was first introduced to varmit reticles when I purchased a third generation of Springfield Armory's 4.5-14 X 40 5.56 Tactical scope about 9 years ago. These scopes got a bad rep fairly early on as they had various problems with some of them failing prematurely. Apparently I was one of the lucky ones, as I've had no problems whatsoever in the past 9 years, and absolutely love this scope (mainly because of the reticle), and its gotten heavy use, as I hunt quite a bit. The glass could certainly be better, but the reticle more than makes up for the shortcomings of the glass for me. The only complaint whatsoever I have with this scope is that for me, it's only good out to 500 yards, which is why I ordered the Leupold to hopefully be able to get out to 600-700 yards accurately.
Springfield has a patent on this particular reticle, which IMHO is a fantastic reticle. For those not familiar with it, it has a built in rangefinder, set up for PD's, yotes, and deer, and also a BDC. So far, I've only used it for PD's and have found the rangefinder, and BDC to be extremely accurate. If I can get the target ranged properly, (it's in increments of 100 yds.) the PD is most likely DRT. In the past 9 years I've probably killed a few thousand PD's using this scope, and I'm a newbie getting ready to start yote hunting, and I'm hoping for the same accurate performance on the yote rangefinder portion of the reticle.
I called Springfield about 8 months ago to quiz them if they had any plans on getting back into the scope business, since I'm so pleased with the reticle. The service rep told me that they did have plans to start selling scopes again, and they were trying to work out the details, as they didn't want a repeat performance of the QC problems that affected some of their scopes. They seem to realize they've got a winner with that unique patented reticle, so I hope they get it all worked out satisfactorily.
So I'm a big fan of varmit reticles based on my experiences described above. When I'm lucky enough to find a dog town where the PD's aren't too "educated" I keep two 20 round mags loaded, and one in the AR, as the action can get fast and furious, as the reticle allows you to acquire another target and range it very, very quickly. If the new Leupold BDC matches my loads fairly close at 20X, I'll be plenty happy with that. I don't like the rangefinder on the Leupold as well as the one on the Springfield, but I'm eager none the less to get the Leupold mounted, and see what I can do with it.
Right now I am looking at the VX-III 6.5-20x40mm Long Range scope. It dosent have a turret but it does have the Varmint reticle. Like I said before I am new to the long range scope on a smaller caliber. All I have ever shot was a 3x9 on a .338.
I have the very same scope on order, and am eagerly awaiting its arrival to check out its performance on my .223 AR main PD rig.
I'm probably opening myself up for some ridicule, which I don't really mind if it comes from shooters that have first hand experience with what I'm about to describe, and not someone repeating what they heard from their 3rd cousins brother in law, etc.
I was first introduced to varmit reticles when I purchased a third generation of Springfield Armory's 4.5-14 X 40 5.56 Tactical scope about 9 years ago. These scopes got a bad rep fairly early on as they had various problems with some of them failing prematurely. Apparently I was one of the lucky ones, as I've had no problems whatsoever in the past 9 years, and absolutely love this scope (mainly because of the reticle), and its gotten heavy use, as I hunt quite a bit. The glass could certainly be better, but the reticle more than makes up for the shortcomings of the glass for me. The only complaint whatsoever I have with this scope is that for me, it's only good out to 500 yards, which is why I ordered the Leupold to hopefully be able to get out to 600-700 yards accurately.
Springfield has a patent on this particular reticle, which IMHO is a fantastic reticle. For those not familiar with it, it has a built in rangefinder, set up for PD's, yotes, and deer, and also a BDC. So far, I've only used it for PD's and have found the rangefinder, and BDC to be extremely accurate. If I can get the target ranged properly, (it's in increments of 100 yds.) the PD is most likely DRT. In the past 9 years I've probably killed a few thousand PD's using this scope, and I'm a newbie getting ready to start yote hunting, and I'm hoping for the same accurate performance on the yote rangefinder portion of the reticle.
I called Springfield about 8 months ago to quiz them if they had any plans on getting back into the scope business, since I'm so pleased with the reticle. The service rep told me that they did have plans to start selling scopes again, and they were trying to work out the details, as they didn't want a repeat performance of the QC problems that affected some of their scopes. They seem to realize they've got a winner with that unique patented reticle, so I hope they get it all worked out satisfactorily.
So I'm a big fan of varmit reticles based on my experiences described above. When I'm lucky enough to find a dog town where the PD's aren't too "educated" I keep two 20 round mags loaded, and one in the AR, as the action can get fast and furious, as the reticle allows you to acquire another target and range it very, very quickly. If the new Leupold BDC matches my loads fairly close at 20X, I'll be plenty happy with that. I don't like the rangefinder on the Leupold as well as the one on the Springfield, but I'm eager none the less to get the Leupold mounted, and see what I can do with it.
CatShooter
New member
Quote:
I have the very same scope on order, and am eagerly awaiting its arrival to check out its performance on my .223 AR main PD rig.
I'm probably opening myself up for some ridicule, which I don't really mind if it comes from shooters that have first hand experience with what I'm about to describe, and not someone repeating what they heard from their 3rd cousins brother in law, etc.
This is not from my third cousin's brother's friend who knew a guy that was living next door to a girl that was sleeping with a shipping clerk that...
I own two of the Springfield scopes - a First gen 308, and the .223.
Both have been excellent, and flawless.
I bought the First Gen to put on a M-21 (a sniper version of the M-14). At the time, I was shooting sniper matches at the West Point Military Academy. Ranges were to 800 yds, with Human torso "E" targets. The scoring was the target value, divided by the time.
When I showed up with the First Gen scope, a lotta guys laughed.
I cleaned the match - I have NEVER used a reticle that was so fast, and so accurate, with absolutely NO calculating - it was literally "Point n shoot". I have owned them both since the early 90's and neither has given me a moments problem.
I do think the Gen two and Gen three were not as well made.
.
I have the very same scope on order, and am eagerly awaiting its arrival to check out its performance on my .223 AR main PD rig.
I'm probably opening myself up for some ridicule, which I don't really mind if it comes from shooters that have first hand experience with what I'm about to describe, and not someone repeating what they heard from their 3rd cousins brother in law, etc.
This is not from my third cousin's brother's friend who knew a guy that was living next door to a girl that was sleeping with a shipping clerk that...
I own two of the Springfield scopes - a First gen 308, and the .223.
Both have been excellent, and flawless.
I bought the First Gen to put on a M-21 (a sniper version of the M-14). At the time, I was shooting sniper matches at the West Point Military Academy. Ranges were to 800 yds, with Human torso "E" targets. The scoring was the target value, divided by the time.
When I showed up with the First Gen scope, a lotta guys laughed.
I cleaned the match - I have NEVER used a reticle that was so fast, and so accurate, with absolutely NO calculating - it was literally "Point n shoot". I have owned them both since the early 90's and neither has given me a moments problem.
I do think the Gen two and Gen three were not as well made.
.