We would like for all in the industry to know.....

I never saw what Gerald posted as being pointed at PM members whatsoever. Interpretation I guess, but I thought he was clear.

I agree that IS lost income. In some instances, the companies were selling sounds.

I also see the unauthorized use of sounds as not only a loss of income, but a devaluation of the sound library period.
I mean, if you can get it free off of some website, then who's going to pay for the sound, right? It markedly depreciates the value of a sound library that in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent by the owner of the sound library to aquire copyrighted legitimate sounds.

It doesn't have to be confusing.

Pirated sounds must add up to $$, or the people doing the pirating wouldn't think it would be worth the risk of litigation.

Putting yourself in the shoes of someone that has pirated sounds on the market from other companies, or websites has got to put you on the defensive.
I, for one feel that the defense of a sound library is one of the most sound business decisions a comapny can make. If you don't think enough of your sound library to protect it, and it's copyrights, then it isn't worth much, is it? Or it for sure won't be when they get through pirating it.

Defending a companies sound library is a must in the technology based world today.

It's not just the sound library, but videos, movies, songs, etc. are pirated all over the world. Many on sites that even the U.S. jurisdiction can't touch.

Unethical business people will always try to take a short cut, rather than do things the right way. I have seen that rear it's ugly head more than once in the Predator Calling circles.
It's time that the consumer of such goods be made aware of the problem, and yes, even be made aware of the people or companies that have such unethical practices.
Nothing positive can come from the illegal and unethical ways that some people do business.
Even Predator Masters has to deal with people and businesses that choose to not do things the right way, or legal way. We have checks and balances in place to nake sure that the members here are protected from these people.
I think Gerald was posting that so that the consumers can be aware of what's going on and be protected themselves from that faction.

Barry
 
GS it is very unfortunate that companies have taken your products and marketed them as their own. I am glad you have been able to reach a resolution and in most cases avoided litigation. But that is not what this post is about. This post is about you and your organization wasting time and resources that could have been better allocated to the improvement of your product. That is a disservice to every customer you have.

Let me ask you a question. How much loss prevention assistance do you provide sporting goods retailers? None? Maybe because if those items are stolen you still get paid?

Truthfully, I was going to let this thread go until I read this quote.

Originally Posted By: gs

Why Would Joe’s buddy go out and buy the pirated sound he heard on Joe’s caller if he can simply download it for “free”?



Have you always run your own company, or did you use to work for a record label? I could easily download your entire library by morning...and yet here I am looking at calls. Why on earth would I do that? Doesn't make sense right...I mean, I can download them for free...but I'm not. Weird. And even if I download them, what will I play them on? I thought you made a product that would play these calls. Well, don't you?

You and others like you with the old school way of thinking are focusing all this effort on preventing illegal downloading instead of focusing on turning those events into revenue opportunities. Unfortunately we as consumers all suffer for this.
 
Mr. Stewart, congratulations on your victory, although it must have been costly to you. All legal proceedings usually are. If you don't stick up for your rights, who will?

IMHO, there's no reason to pirate sounds for a caller when they are relatively inexpensive to buy. Again, congratulations are in order. MI VHNTR
 
Originally Posted By: dtm6582GS it is very unfortunate that companies have taken your products and marketed them as their own. I am glad you have been able to reach a resolution and in most cases avoided litigation. But that is not what this post is about. This post is about you and your organization wasting time and resources that could have been better allocated to the improvement of your product. That is a disservice to every customer you have.

Let me ask you a question. How much loss prevention assistance do you provide sporting goods retailers? None? Maybe because if those items are stolen you still get paid?

Truthfully, I was going to let this thread go until I read this quote.

Originally Posted By: gs

Why Would Joe’s buddy go out and buy the pirated sound he heard on Joe’s caller if he can simply download it for “free”?



Have you always run your own company, or did you use to work for a record label? I could easily download your entire library by morning...and yet here I am looking at calls. Why on earth would I do that? Doesn't make sense right...I mean, I can download them for free...but I'm not. Weird. And even if I download them, what will I play them on? I thought you made a product that would play these calls. Well, don't you?

You and others like you with the old school way of thinking are focusing all this effort on preventing illegal downloading instead of focusing on turning those events into revenue opportunities. Unfortunately we as consumers all suffer for this.


Well, other companies also make e callers that can play Mr. Stewart's sounds too. Therefore, by swiping the sounds, you can put them on any caller you so desire and completely exclude Mr. Stewart's ecallers/products and therefore deprive him of his legitimate income from the sounds. New school, or old school, stealing is stealing no matter how you try to twist it or convert it into an "opportunity". MI VHNTR
 
Originally Posted By: sharkathmi

I'm not sure we can compare potential income with actual income here.
The potential income would have been actual income if folks had to purchase the sounds from JS and not from a free down load file.



Unfortunately this idea assumes that every person who downloads these files would have purchased them in the event the free download was not available. This is false. Period.

Originally Posted By: sharkathmi

The sale of those Johnny Stewart sound cards has been reduced substantially because of the free downloads.
That is lost income.


What are you basing this assessment on? Usually to make a statement like this a person would have some data to back that up. The record companies have been trying for years to come up with concrete data. So far nothing. As we've already discussed one downloaded sound does not equal one lost sale. It is only lost income if the purchaser is convinced to download for free instead of purchasing the product. Maybe you should revisit my previous quote discussing the business opportunities presented by piracy. In many ways I think the opportunities outway the damages.


Rockinbbar,

I would again like to remind everyone we are not questioning whether piracy is bad. Only whether the resolution is worse.

Originally Posted By: rockinbbar
I also see the unauthorized use of sounds as not only a loss of income, but a devaluation of the sound library period.
I mean, if you can get it free off of some website, then who's going to pay for the sound, right? It markedly depreciates the value of a sound library that in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent by the owner of the sound library to aquire copyrighted legitimate sounds.


I want to examine this from another perspective. What if devaluation of the media library is good. I see a lot of people here complaining of technical issues with their very expensive callers. Interestingly, Johnny Stewart is by far the most frequent, probably due to their lower price point and greater customer base. If that media library is no longer valuable then these manufacturers will be forced to find other revenue streams. Maybe that is an improved product? Maybe a new product that has not yet been created. Can short term pain really equal long term success?

Sorry this turned into such a fight guys. Just look at the second post from the JS folks. How much time was spent on all of this? Yes, they have to protect their things, but they are not doing it at the pirates expense. They are doing it at yours.
 
Originally Posted By: MI VHNTR

Well, other companies also make e callers that can play Mr. Stewart's sounds too. Therefore, by swiping the sounds, you can put them on any caller you so desire and completely exclude Mr. Stewart's ecallers/products

Why does every response back me up? That is a very good point. I guess Mr. Stewart will just have to design a better, more cost effective product to get to me to buy it. Sounds like the perfect American economy to me.
 
Gerald,

Thanks for your response. I was wanting to hear directly from you before the predictable and too often surrogates chimed in on your behalf.

I appreciate the clarification. JS has been in business a long, long time and I have to imagine that in this digital age, piracy is harder to fight then ever. I always figured some small time suspect(s) were trading your sounds (and others), I didn't realize that some big name companies were also doing the same.

As stated earlier, currently the only sounds I have are genuine FoxPro sounds. I'm always interested in adding other sounds, though. With all the sounds available on the net (free and some not free), is there any foolproof way to determine what sounds might be pirated? I doubt if there is.

I also have to imagine that someone could 'burn' a CD with your sounds and then market them, such as on eBay, as "JS" sounds. Pretty easy to print out a fake label, too.
 
Quote:
I'm not sure we can compare potential income with actual income here.The potential income would have been actual income if folks had to purchase the sounds from JS and not from a free down load file. Quote:Unfortunately this idea assumes that every person who downloads these files would have purchased them in the event the free download was not available. This is false. Period.
Even if one person failed to purchase JS sounds because of a free down load it is lost income. Period.
But I'm sure more than one has done the down load. Just a hunch though. No data to back it up.

Quote:You and others like you with the old school way of thinking are focusing all this effort on preventing illegal downloading instead of focusing on turning those events into revenue opportunities. Unfortunately we as consumers all suffer for this.
Shop lifting is a billion dollar a year operation.
Are you saying stores should not spend money on Loss Prevention and instead spend more money on better advertising to create greater sales to increase the profit margin that was reduced because of the shop lifting?

popcorn.gif
 
Let me ramble a bit on our history in the business of making wildlife recordings. It took Dad 3 years to record his first 10 usable sounds. I use the word “usable” to draw a distinction between the difference in those sounds that met his standard and those that did not. The effort to do that was substantial in many cases and some, not so substantial. Over the years he would replace, refine and re-record to move his standard even higher. I honestly believe that he left many sounds “on the cutting room floor” that probably were better than some of our competitor’s best.

That Standard is what put us on top and kept us there for many years. We have had the unpleasant task of having to defend our ownership of those sounds many times. Dad’s first discovery of the copying of his sounds was at his very first Trade Show in the early 60’s. He heard and recognized one his crow sounds being played in the old McCormick building in Chicago at the NASGW show. He took care of it at that show by confronting the individual face to face. Luckily for him, the guy agreed to not ever do it again. Those were untested waters legally as it pertained to wildlife recordings.

Theft had happened a number of times back then, all of which were resolved with a phone call or a personal approach to the infringer. It was not until the early 80’s when the predator market started to grow much larger that we had to confront with lawyers and the threat of legal action. The first occassion where it actually went to trial was in the early 90’s which I mentioned earlier. I wish I could describe the trial in its entirety, because it was an interesting study in legal maneuvering. I had never been involved in a trial and ended up on the stand all day on the 5th day. We prevailed….I got Colitis.

I had a hunch that the advent of digital technology age would create a legal challenge that would test a small company’s resolve with the larger companies starting to eye our small niche in the market place. When Hunter’s Specialties wanted to become a player in the fastest growing segment of the industry, I warned them loudly and plainly what I thought was in store for them on the legal front. They did not flinch at the prospect of having to defend what they wanted so strongly.

My hunch has born out in the things I speak of here. If you could only realize how important my piracy watch is for HS. It is probably the most important aspect of what I do for them. The sound library is a huge part of the value they bought along with my Father’s name. Maybe I can give you some insight into why I think it needs to be defended.

In the old days of cassette, the quality and breadth of our sound library was our life blood. We actually lost money on our cassette players up until the mid 90’s. It always amazed me that everyone placed so much emphasis on the players, not the sounds. I assume it was easier to focus on things you could touch and carry, not the thing you could only hear. It was the sound then, as it is today, that makes or breaks the success of a caller. I have stated many times that you can have the most fancy wiz bang caller in the world and it will only reproduce a very good reproduction of a piss poor sound…if that is all you put into it. I would take the performance of a high quality cassette tape sound over a high quality digital caller playing a very poor quality sound any day.

Think about it, all the bells and whistles of a $1000 caller mean nothing if you do not play a good sound through it. Combine the two, a high quality player with a high quality sound and you have a winner. It is not the remote feature or high volume output or 10 key pad or rechargeable batteries that make that animal commit to respond to your calling attempt. I can call coyotes with a $10 mouthcall and get the advantage of remote with the $39.95 JS Attractor (I apologize for the blatant sales pitch). It is the sound they hear that makes them commit. Now, all of those other features can make the logistics of your calling far more functional and successful as it pertains to the other aspects of a calling stand.

I expressed the perception that there has been a focus on the playback device over the years and I think that is even truer now than it was back during the days of cassettes. There is something new to go along with that though. Now I think the perceived value of sounds is even less due to a phenomenon that started with the growth of the Ecallers in the mid 90’s. Most Ecaller companies could only provide sounds, with their early units, that were given to them by others or that were available from the internet. For the most part, those sounds were of very marginal quality; poorly recorded, short in duration or some other negative attribute.

The reality of our world was that we had to sell cassette players to be able to sell the more lucrative sounds or we could not keep our doors open. I think many of the Ecaller companies were selling players and needed sounds to go along with them only to complete the package. The opposite of what we were doing. The consuming market, for the most part, has become addicted to the idea of “free” sounds, I assume, early on, not realizing that the reason they were free is because they were substandard in nature or stolen. If all of those companies had gone out and gone through what Dad and others had, they would not be giving them away for “free”.

I have seen a shift in the last few years moving back more to the concept of recording proprietary sounds and charging for your labors. I hope that the incentive for profit and longevity on the part of manufacturers in the market will benefit the consumers in form of quality sounds that will work for better for them than the “free” sounds. Does this mean that all “free” sounds are poor performers….no. Does this mean that all sounds you pay for are great sounds….no. But in the long run I think you should seek out the good sounds that are proven in the test of time and field. I truly hope that my argument is a mute point in a few years …for the benefit of the consumer.

It does not make sense to buy a $4000 rifle and use $.10 cent ammo nor does it make sense to buy a $500 caller and use “free” sounds. That is why I think HS should protect their investment in JS sounds.

WyoYote – somebody has already tried that but with no name on it and we stopped them too.

Thanks for letting me ramble. I hope I will see some of you guys at the WCCC in December.
 
Originally Posted By: dtm6582Originally Posted By: MI VHNTR

Well, other companies also make e callers that can play Mr. Stewart's sounds too. Therefore, by swiping the sounds, you can put them on any caller you so desire and completely exclude Mr. Stewart's ecallers/products

Why does every response back me up? That is a very good point. I guess Mr. Stewart will just have to design a better, more cost effective product to get to me to buy it. Sounds like the perfect American economy to me.



dtm6582,

Very recently, you made your first post here at Predator Masters asking for advice on calling, locations, and areas you could call with a car due to the fact that you have no truck. You also made mention of having a total of 1 coyote hunt under your belt, and really seemed interested in learning about the sport and it's techniques.

I am not sure if you realize it, but Gerald Stewart is one of the "Old Dogs" of the industry, and I don't mean that in a bad way. He one of the "originals".

It is guys like Gerald who have helped to make Predator Hunting what it is today.

The way in which you seem to be addressing one of the MOST talented people in the industry seems a little confusing, and quite frankly, more than just a little disrespectful.

Please don't take my comments as a attack against you, but my point is, if you wanna learn "how it all gets done", speaking disrespectfuly to Gerald Stewart or making light of his accomplishments and business decisions, probably isn't the right way to begin your "adventure".

Jeff Mock
 
My hat popped off of my head when I read your last post Jeff. Thanks for the kind words. I did not take dtm6582's words as disrespectful as much as maybe born of being misinformed or unknowlegable. Your pointing out his recent entry to the activity provided an Ahaa moment for me.

dtm6582, welcome to the fraternity of those who enjoy the art and thrill of calling wildlife. I appreciate and take your charge for the design of new and innovative product as a relevant one. As a consultant to the Johnny Stewart product line for Hunters Specialties, I encourage them in that direction as much as I can. Regardless of what high tech devices we may come up with, the protection of our sounds is a task that is essential in my mind.

Not wanting to wander off into being redundant, I will say that I hope some of what I have posted has made sense to you and given you some insight into my thinking and possibly some reasoning for why HS chooses to go after the most flagrant of violators.

 
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Gerald,
Good for you and HS! I work for a company that owns patents and trademarks, and one point of what dtm indicates IS true.

It is a huge amount of negative energy to fight infringements,(including legal fees), but, none the less, they are battles that need to be fought.

We just went through a minor scuffle with a larger company over a trademark, and it is not fun.

Past that point, dtm's logic is amazing. I am somewhat prone to give him a pass due to the fact he sounds young, and comes from the 'it is OK as long as I don't get caught' crowd.

All I can say to you dtm is to refer to the John Wayne quote in Jeff's sig line....
grin.gif


Have a great day!

DD
 
GS thanks for the post. And for anyone here thinking this a shot a us from him, forget it. I have dealt with GS on sound issues before and he is here to help us period.

Hammer
 
In Gerald-Years, he IS an old dog.

Well... I thought it was funny.

The camel's nose under the tent is what finally turned out to be a disaster for the Napster generation. First one, then another, then another. Before you know it the are no more record stores.

I have a hunch that somewhere close to that line drawn in the sand is something called principle. I've been guilty of sacrificing profit over principle a time or two.

Here's a question:
If you acquired a copyrighted sound without paying and used it to call in and shoot a coyote, would you pony up and send the copyright owner a pittance for profiting from their sound?
 
Gerald, I own one of your callers and several of your sound cards,they work great. I look forward to the next generation of JS callers.
 
Originally Posted By: Jay NistetterHere's a question:
If you acquired a copyrighted sound without paying and used it to call in and shoot a coyote, would you pony up and send the copyright owner a pittance for profiting from their sound?



Whoa. Time out! Who's profiting from killing a coyote these days? I figure every coyote I've killed this year has cost ME about $13.65. Since I use alot of JS sounds to kill these coyotes maybe Gerald or HS should consider sending me a pittance to help with my fuel, ammo, etc, etc costs.
grin.gif




I hope nobody took this serious.
frown.gif
 
oofa...I leave this alone for one day...OK, here we go.

Originally Posted By: sharkathmi

Even if one person failed to purchase JS sounds because of a free down load it is lost income. Period.



Yes, that is correct. We established this on the previous page. The issue becomes not whether this is true, but whether the cost of avoiding this loss is too great to justify its pursuit. I've provided the opportunity but no one has shown numbers indicating my stance is incorrect. Much less have I received a well reasoned argument against my assertions.

Originally Posted By: sharkathmi
Are you saying stores should not spend money on Loss Prevention and instead spend more money on better advertising to create greater sales to increase the profit margin that was reduced because of the shop lifting?


Almost. While there may actually be some benefit to this approach I can't say for certain as I lack data to support this approach. What I can tell you is that this is the old form of stealing. Ya know the one we talked about earlier where the victim is deprived of their property and loses the ability to use/sell it. You read the previous posts right?

Now, with that unpleasantness over.

Originally Posted By: jeff mock
dtm6582,

Very recently, you made your first post here at Predator Masters asking for advice on calling, locations, and areas you could call with a car due to the fact that you have no truck. You also made mention of having a total of 1 coyote hunt under your belt, and really seemed interested in learning about the sport and it's techniques.

I am not sure if you realize it, but Gerald Stewart is one of the "Old Dogs" of the industry, and I don't mean that in a bad way. He one of the "originals".

It is guys like Gerald who have helped to make Predator Hunting what it is today.

The way in which you seem to be addressing one of the MOST talented people in the industry seems a little confusing, and quite frankly, more than just a little disrespectful.

Please don't take my comments as a attack against you, but my point is, if you wanna learn "how it all gets done", speaking disrespectfuly to Gerald Stewart or making light of his accomplishments and business decisions, probably isn't the right way to begin your "adventure".

Jeff Mock


Thank you Jeff. Finally someone brought this up. I am a NEW member. I am NEW to predator hunting. I mean absolutely no disrespect to those who have been fortunate enough to make their careers pursuing something they love. I like to consider myself in that category as well although it is a much different profession. Unfortunately this is not a predator hunting issue where field time is useful. This is a business and consumer issue. As a consultant myself I am much more qualified in this area than I am skilled as a hunter. I don't want to offend or anger anyone. I want to encourage everyone who reads this to expand their thinking beyond what they are force fed.

Gerald, who could have responded very harshly to my comments many times has no doubt proven himself a gentleman. As most of you have failed to note, however, these are no longer his calls. He has stated repeatedly that he is a consultant. I see a lot of "attaboys" here direct at Gerald. Doesn't make sense right? They aren't even his calls anymore. Gerald didn't win this. The company he no longer owns(I assume he once owned it), but represents did. Why do so many people here continue to congratulate him?


Gerald,
I have a great deal of admiration for the work that your father put in to starting the company and creating the calls you have so successfully sold throughout the years. I am certain you played a critical role in the development of your former organization and those of us both new and old to the sport appreciate the contributions you have made. I know you no longer own the Johnny Stewart line. I don't hold you responsible for the mother company's actions. I know you think piracy watch is important, and preventing major players from selling your product is a good thing. The only problem I have is that these are the only examples you give. I know the term is meant to be funny, but "piracy watch" tells me you spend a lot of time on this. How much time can we allocate to those specific victories? How much has been wasted? Your calls are still easily pirated on the internet. What have you really accomplished?

Gerald, this is not an attack and I appreciate your not taking it as such. I know the concepts I am proposing on this forum are defying conventional wisdom. There are not many here as familiar with the technology arena as I. You continue to propose a war against piracy. I believe you have already lost that war..and cannot win it. I believe as such the organization you represent should focus not on piracy, but on improving the product line.

I would love to be proven wrong, however. Please, can anyone post the name of a company that has successfully prevented any copy of their sounds/music/videos/etc from being distributed illegally? My point is to focus on the product, not the few breaking the law. Obviously, mass infringement from a competitor is a little different.

Oh, and thank you for your welcome. I hope it was legitimate. I am very excited to join this community. I appreciate your "aha" moment. I am sure others here do as well. I would like to remind you, however, that I am the future. Whether you like it or not, this is what is coming. I never thought I would quote Bob Dylan, much less on a forum like this, but:
"Then you better start swimmin' Or you'll sink like a stone.For the times they are a-changin."
Has never been more appropriate.
 
I like you the more I read you dtm. You remind me of my youngest son. He was a real Napster junkie and we had some interesting conversations from both sides of the fence. Many of the points you make are very valid and worthy of consideration. I am not beyond being convinced to change my mind but that will be tough.

I am paid to provide the Piracy Watch that I do for HS but it is interesting to me that I still take it so personally when I find people taking what is not theirs. I get a drug free high when I nail piracy on the computer. I have a computer file that I use for the piracy work that I call "audio snoop" and a file within that which I store the confirmations in labeled INAILEDYOURASS.wav. How telling is that? By the way when I make an accusation, I have never been wrong. Forgive me for tooting my own horn.
grin.gif


I think the "attaboy" responses are simply a manifestation of peoples desire to see the good guys win. I too like to see the bad guys get their just punishment occasionally in this ever deteriorating society we live in. Maybe it stems from the story my father told me about a time in his WWII Navy days when he broke a beer bottle over the head of a bully who was picking on a lesser man in a bar one night.

I don't feel attacked by you at all. I will say though that I think you are an interesting study. I would like to spend some time around the campfire to get to know you better. I think this is a horrible medium to try and accomplish that.

I think it is important to do both the watch and the improvement of the product line. I do believe we are winning the battle to keep competitors from stealing our intellectual property in the large picture. I am not foolish enough to think that we will stop it from happening in the end user realm.

We have stopped many from illegal distribution of our sounds. I know that sounds like the guy who says "I can quit smoking any time I want...I have done it two dozen times"" but the sooner I can catch them, the more I can minimize the damage. I will say that I am finding more and more instances of large libraries NOT having our sounds in them. I want to believe that is possibly a sign of our progress. The sense of relief I get from that is almost as good as the high of nailing the bad guys.

I would love to have a conversation around the campfire with you about your faith in "change". There are times when change is for the worse, not the better. I hope we never get to a place where we never try to stop wrongdoing because it is just easier to make another product and move on. Maybe about now you are thinking that I would make a pretty good Dinosaur and you just might be right.
smile.gif


 
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Originally Posted By: dtm6582Seems like a lot of energy is being wasted here that could be used to expand your base maybe by increasing the popularity of predator hunting.
Anyway, I'm in the market for an ecaller and was seriously going back and forth between the Johnny Stewart line and Foxpro. Foxpro it is.


DTM--With all the statements you have made complaining about HS wanting to protect their sounds, do you realize that Foxpro has also made it so you cant buy their sounds and put them on another call. You cant even play the sound on your computer to put it on another call. Everyone is starting to take some sort of step to protect their investement. It is a smart business move.
Are you going to talk down on Foxpro also and not buy their product now?

Originally Posted By: dtm6582Originally Posted By: sharkathmi
Are you saying stores should not spend money on Loss Prevention and instead spend more money on better advertising to create greater sales to increase the profit margin that was reduced because of the shop lifting?


Almost. While there may actually be some benefit to this approach I can't say for certain as I lack data to support this approach. What I can tell you is that this is the old form of stealing. Ya know the one we talked about earlier where the victim is deprived of their property and loses the ability to use/sell it. You read the previous posts right?


I believe you also lack the data on the action that Hunters Speciaties has taken yet you come on here and want to tell them what they should or should not do.

Theft is theft whether it is selling someone elses sound or robbing someone at gun point. If someone came to your house once a day and robbed you of $20 a day would you just let it go or do something about it? After all it would cost the taxpayers more than that to prosecute and detain someone for doing it. So where is the benefit of stopping them.

Originally Posted By: dtm6582
You and others like you with the old school way of thinking are focusing all this effort on preventing illegal downloading instead of focusing on turning those events into revenue opportunities. Unfortunately we as consumers all suffer for this.

So the new school way of thinking is that illegal downloading is OK and we shouldnt prevent it but learn to make money from it? You think that the consumers are going to benefit from that? Sounds like a lawyer!! Heaven help the new world!! This just ads to my belief that the world is going to [beeep]. So do you and the new school way of thinking think that theft is OK??
 
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