What causes "fliers" in groups?

Hidalgo

Hidalgo

Well-known member
I've been searching all over the net, and found several "opinions" from "experts" on this. We have one rifle that will throw a wild shot once out of every five shots. Clean or dirty, it doesn't matter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

I've read......
Dirty barrel
Bad loads
Crown problems
Wrong bullet/powder
Bad barrel
Bad chamber
The list goes on & on & on...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

That are your opinions or findings?
 
Non consistant rifle location in shooting rest platform. ie not setting forend on either sand bags or whatever the same consistanly along with a heavy trigger pull are my main excuses before I admitt to the previously mentioned reason
Later
DF2
 
When you look in the mirror you will see the cause of most flyers if you have a gun capable of good accuracy. But ego lets us look for other reasons most of the time. I usually can tell you before I even look through the spotting scope if I goobered.
 
What are you guys talking about??? I have never caused a flyer. It is always due to weather conditions, lighting, wind, the benchrest settling, etc.. I have seen ammo cause the problem if it is factory or somebody else's handloads as mine can't be the problem there either. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
+1 for the heavy trigger pull. The groups on my Model 200 Stevens tightened up considerably after a trigger job was done.
 
Some 10/22's will throw a 1st round flier when bolt feeds first round from magazine but not on subsequent shots.

Some serious 10/22 shooters at my club use that first round as a sighter only..then shoot for group.

Probably something definitive at rimfirecentral.com....may be related to having or not having a pinned firing pin.

As for me fliers are always equipment-related and I'm sticking to that story.
 
Quote:
We have one rifle that will throw a wild shot once out of every five shots.



What ammo are you using in this? A Ruger I have(I know, bad grouping rifle anyway but mine does not appear to be one of the affected ones) has always had this problem with Winny White Box ammo. Usually one out of every 5 to 10 shots was a wild flier. And by wild they were so far off that I took myself out as part of the fault. When a bullet starts going upwards of a foot off course I can tell it wasn't me unless I had a wasp crawled down the back of my shirt or something. No such problem with this rifle on any other brand ammos and handloads shoot very nice through it.
 
Quote:
Quote:
We have one rifle that will throw a wild shot once out of every five shots.



What ammo are you using in this?



It doesn't really matter what ammo it is.

The groups were loose (1.5"-2.5") with factory ammo, but when I found a handload that the rifle seemed to like, they shrunk to 1.25" or better "most" of the time. But it is a given, anytime it goes to the range you can be certain that it will throw one 2"-3" away from the others. I OFTEN admit to Operator Error, but I just can't believe that it is me ALL of the time? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Like others have said...I get the yips every once in awhile and pull or push one. Just like my golf game.

I know most my rifles will throw a flyer on the first shot in a clean bore, or start flying after it gets too dirty and needs a good cleaning. I spent an entire evening cleaning copper out of one rifle I purchased used, couldnt hardly see it, but it wouldnt shoot. Shrunk the groups by half. This wouldnt explain the every once in awhile one though.
 
Yea it is pretty much undeniable that the largest cause of flyers is the guy behind the trigger, but there are also other reasons.

I think the 10/22 first round flyer is headspace related if you get the bolt re-headspaced and the first round flyers are diminished the bolt pinning is supposed to help roud to round primer strike, the more consistant the strike the more uniform the ignition.

As for loads most of us have probably seen that group a couple good and close and one off on it's own. there is a temptation there to call it shooter error and call it a good group.

For the last while I have been using the "Optimal Charge Weight" for load development. the theory is a shock wave caused by ignition reverbarates up and down a barrel. When the shock wave is at the muzzle the accuracy is less than if the shock wave is at the action end. The trick is to identify the band of charge wieghts that produce the right velocity where the shok wave is the furthest away from the muzzle (more stable = more accurate).

Load that are close to edge of the band through normal pressure variances throw a shot out side of the stable band producing a flyer.

Ideally using the ocw method you find the middle of the stability you load up there and no matter what conditions your in (hot antelop hunt of freezing deer hunt) you POI won't change.
 
I seem to recall that you use a lead sled Hidalgo? If that's the case then it (probably) isn't the shooter.

Is the "1 out of 5" a generalization meaning about 20% of the shots are flyers randomly distributed in your strings, or is it specific as in "the first shot of every five shot string I shoot is a flyer"? If you change to 10 shot strings would the incidence of flyers change to 1 in 10 shots?

Is there a consistency to the flyer of any kind, i.e. is it the first shot out of a cold barrel, always the second shot, always the last shot, etc?

Will the flyer always go in the same place?

You groups sucked with factory ammo, but was there consistantly a flyer there too?
 
Loose trigger nut, it needs to be tightened /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What rifle, what cartridge, what bullet?
F1
 
Quote:
Loose trigger nut, it needs to be tightened /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What rifle, what cartridge, what bullet?
F1



Oh yeah.....you got that right.....there's DEFINITELY a loose connection at the trigger soemtimes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

It's a Ruger M77/22 Hornet. Best load is WW brass, 12.5gr LilGun, 35gr VMax.

LEON.....I parked the "sled" a while ago. Too cumbersome getting to the range and back all the time. I'm using a Caldwell BR1000 and a rear bag now. As for when the flier occurs, it seems to be usually the 4th or 5th shot of a 5-shot string. Almost always high and to the right side. I know that sounds like the shooter, but the same thing happens whether I am shooting, or my son is shooting. To beat it all.....he's left-handed and the flier still goes to the same place as when I am shooting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Beats me what is going on. Like most people have replied (and I had assumed all along) it is a 99% chance that it's the shooter(s) and not the rifle. On the other hand, this is the only rifle out of 4 that we are working with right now that is throwing shots like this. Just seems strange, that's all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Any and all the things you listed, as a rifle is fired it heats up,this will compound any problems in the bedding, crown, bore alignment ect.
 
"Ruger M77/22 Hornet"

There's the problem right there. It's a Hornet!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Jack
 
Hidalgo,

When I get home this weekend I'm going to have to pull some targets from last fall. I'm thinking the last time I had my 77/22 (Hornet) at the range I had the same thing. 4 of the 5 were cloverleafed and the 5th was high and right (about a minute each way). I think I have record of the sequence as well. You've got me curious. I'll pm ya with what I find.
 


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