Whats the minimum Ft lbs of enery needed to kill a Coyote?

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Niiiiiiiiiiiice, this is a good way to sour a new hunter into giving up on the sport. If you don't like this guy or the next, you don't have to reply to his posts. You ol'grumps need to start your own forum or something. These types of replies are getting old.



Group hugs are down the hall and third door to the left.

I didn't have to reply to this post either but since its silly and we are burning up cyberspace bandwidth for no reason anyway....
 
"chupathingy" you..say these types of replies are getting old ?? you sir have been here just over one month !! how would you really know ?? also who's the grumpy old men ?? how would you know how old anyone here is ?? i don't think anyone is trying to "sour" a new hunter @ all..yes i don't need to read this guy's thread's..so therefore..i won't anymore..he can start thread..after..thread..& maybe a few more..it's all good.
 
chupathingy...let's all hold hand's..& high..five.. each other..tell each other whatever it is we think each other want's to hear & have a good time !! "heaven" forbid..anyone just tell it like it is..
 
The reason I posted this is because I try and do as much research as possible to become the most educated and ethical hunter I can be. I just wanted to kwow If I can hit a Coyote in the correct placement what would be the maximum efective yardage for a 223 with this type of bullet. I wanted to know if its 100,450,500, or 550 plus. I have been practicing way beyond that twice a week for the past several months with several different loads at the local range and feel very confident in my shots. But i also know there is not enough energy transfer once I get so far out there. I didn't mean to start a war. I a have a couple dozen coyotes under my belt along with 3 bobcats and one mountain lion, all with a 243. Its just a pelt wrecker. I just want to do as much research as possible before I go on my up comming hunt and not be like most idiots and find out for themselves by trial and error.
 
I think that it's pretty neat to see someone so excited about their upcoming hunt.

Reminds me of my son when we were getting ready for his first deer hunt. Question after question. I'll bet he cleaned that 700 a dozen times! Checked the bullets. Anti-fogged the scope. etc... Sometimes it got kind of old but then I realized that I had been hunting for so many years that I took a lot of my experience for granted. Once I grasped that, I don't know what happened but I started getting a little excited too.

Dultimatpredator, go for it and don't let a couple of negative posts get you down. Thanks for asking the questions that you need to know to feel confident in making a humane kill.

One more thing, these posts show up on Google searches for a long time. This particular subject line will get hits from other hunters that are also interested in making humane kills at further than 50 yds. So think about it, there's no telling how many people will read your reply to these types of questions over the years.
 

Greetings and welcome.

Winchester silver tip loads in a 38 special pistol delivers 218# at the muzzle. i would expect to see a yote die quicky if I shot it with a 38 special point blank.

So you can use 218 ft. lbs. as a good number.

22 LR ammo produces about 100 ft. lbs. at the muzzle. I would expect a coyote to die if i shot it in the head with a 22 rifle point blank.

So 100 pounds at the cranium is a good number.

The way I look at rifle killing power at extreme long range, is by looking at pistol killing power at normal pistol range.

Like I have killed deer, with my GI .45. a good 'ol 45 makes about 375-400# at the muzzle. and at 30 yards in my experience a 45 will pile up a whitetail every time.

So I hunt deer now days with my AR .223, with my short barrel, anbd my loads, I'm still hitting at 400 yards with the same energy that my 45 killed those deer with at 30.
good enough for me. (And proven effective: read the post in this forum "dont underestimate your ar .223")

Sure I have used mathmatical tables in my eager youth, but it would never fail that someone would ask my "expert opinion" on this stuff at a gun show, or out whereever and I would never have my calculator handy to do the math for them, regarding there game and load.

So hence my "pistol dialog".... it evolved like this:

a guy see's me at the local gunshow and runs me down to ask about a new rifle for a new kind of game he has never hunted what to get?

I ask what range hunting? a 1000 yards gas/power line cut? or a .8 yard visibility rhodedendrum thicket?

So let's say guy says well where I hunt I can see 300 yards across a bottom...

Let's say the game is wild boar. So I say to guy, well if you were to have to defend yourself, at pointblank range, from a charging wild boar, what is the LEAST powerful pistol you would feel comfortable with?

Lest's say guy says, wow man, I would hope to at least have a .357 magnum.

Then I say okay, well a .357 at point blank produces around 550 # at the muzzle.

So if you think it takes minimum .357 mag energy to quickly stop a boar,when it's your rear on the line choose a rifle round that has that much energy, at the max range you would shoot a boar- when it's the boars rear on the line to make a quick & ethical clean kill.

get a rifle round that has at least 550 # left at 300 yards.

That has been my standard that has evolved over the years for the whole debate of "what is needed to kill what at how far"

No, it's not sexy, absurdly scientific, etc, but it is practical & logical. and it helps guys, laymen figure out the stuff for themselves.

And when the pressure is more than you can bear, and your there with your wallet quivering, motuh watering over a firearm at the gun show, it is a quick "kill-power formula- at range method" that just works, without a calculator & PHD.

So you asked about Coyote? If I or my wife were being charged by a highly motivated, highly ticked off coyote at point blank, I would hope to have a minimum of a 22 Magnum pistol....

Well, an average 22 mag load out of a 6 inch ruger single six revolver would be spitting out 150 +/- ft. lbs. of energy.

So, by my unsexy logic here, my 16" ar-15, spitting out Sierra 55 grain blitzkings @ 3000 fps still has 150 ft. lbs. of energy at 700 yards. So that is my max range, for MINIMUM "killing power."

Waht the 22 mag pistol will do point balnk is equal to what my AR & my loads will do at 700.

Can I put the bullet in the vital zone at 700 yards? Can I read the wind that well? Can i get the coyote to stand still long enough to range him, read the wind, measure for up or down shooting angle, and adjsut my scope for all those varibles and shoot before he moves? That is a whole other topic.

You wanted to know about required kinetic energy on coyote at range. I have given you a handy "pistol/rifle comaprison tool" to use as a rough approximation. but know this,

99% of the time, the shooter is the limiting factor, not the cartridge or it's power at range. If YOU, the driver of the weapon, can not put the bullet in the vitals, then allbets are off, even it your shooting at bumble bee's with .50 cals.

The best words of wisdom i was even given in shooting was
"amatuers study ballistics, experts study wind" in reagrds to shootng rifles.


i have taken quite a long time to try to give you a useable tool to answeryour questions, ad enable to help you answer these types of questions for the rest of your shooting life.

I hope I havw made up for you being possibly "rubbed the wrong way" on this forum. This is the nicest, most kind and helpful out doors froum on hte net. We hope you can participate and enjoy it!

Welcome!
 
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I just want to do as much research as possible before I go on my up comming hunt and not be like most idiots and find out for themselves by trial and error.



I commend you for doing the research to get ready for your hunt but you can end up looking to deep into a question without using a little trial and error. For example, the V-max bullet seems to be about a 50/50 split on whether it is fur friendly or not, which side are you going to choose and why? If you choose either without trying it you may not be doing yourself any favors. Most of the questions you have been asking are ones that come down to opinion and are not always able to be proven one way or the other. Combine that with the fact that you are asking opinion questions from thousands of strangers from the hunting/shooting community, which are only rivaled by fishermen, golfers, lawyers, and weathermen for their ability to shade truths and massage numbers as needed, and I would think the need for some trial and error would be required.

Didn't mean to get down on you earlier but I just think you are spending too much time analyzing how to kill a 25lb coyote. Just want to make sure you don't overthink this whole thing and keep your mind clear to see the dogs in the brush rather than worrying about ballistic charts in the stand. Bottom line is the .223 with the 60gr V-max will work well for you within its limits.
 
well theres a few variables t othis situation...first I'd ask what kind of boots you are wearing? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
For a Predator Calling site, we seem to be accumulating a collection of non-callers who prefer OTH shooting, rather than "waiting to see the whites of their eyes". Should we maybe have a special Forum for these long range sight-shooters? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
I'll tell you what my personel minimum is and that's 10 foot pounds of energy per pound of coyote at the target. If your coyotes don't get much bigger than 35 pounds than 350 foot pounds of energy at the target, 40 pounds than 400 foot pounds and etc. Now that's my self imposed minimum but that doesn't mean that if I shoot a firearm that generates well over that minimum out to say 500 yards or beyond that I would take the shot. That's were ethics come into the equation. Just because we call coyotes "varmints", doesn't mean that we shouldn't show them the respect that they deserve. The kill zone on a coyote is pretty darn small, not much over 4" all things considered and most shots at even 300 yards under field conditions are tough to accomplish on a regular basis. I'd wager that the vast percentage of hunters have no idea what wind really does to a bullet in flight. Is that wind 10 mph, 20 mph? Is it coming from 90 degrees, 45 degrees or somewhere in between? As an example, the 22-250 is one of our most popular coyote rounds. With a 55 grain bullet shot at 3600 fps wind drift with a 10 mph, 90 degree cross wind that bullet is blown about 9-1/4" at 300 yards but 28" at 500 yards and if the wind is 20 mph you can double those numbers. But is the wind blowing 90 degrees? What about 45 degrees? Than are you guessing? Trust me, 500 yards is a LONG shot and the're is a lot of luck involved in hitting that 4" target at that range even under perfect conditions. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just not by me.
 
Yeah, that!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif


Tell you what. All those who post on here about what a piece of cake it is to kill a coyote at 300, 400, and 500 yards, put up or shut up. Show up at the Annual PM Hunt in Globe and give everyone a demonstration of just how easily it can be done. They have a little contest there, where all you have to do is break an egg. That egg is just about the same size as the kill zone on a coyote.

So here's a chance for all you keyboard marksmen to not only show what you're really made of, but also be handsomely rewarded.

Of course, if you're only able to make those heroic shots when there are no wittnesses, welllll ....... we understand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
At point blank range, or at 50, 100, or 200 yards? It drops exponentially as distance from the muzzle is increased.
 
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and not be like most idiots and find out for themselves by trial and error.


I guess I am just one of those idiots who puts a lot of faith in personal experiences gathered over three and half decades of coyote hunting.

As a new member, I guess I should have asked, is this forum strictly for reloading and firearms for close range calling work?

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I just wanted to find out what would be the suggested minimum foot pounds to kill a yote so I can make ethical shots.



My point is that only you can make the determination as to what constitutes "ethical". I'll be perfectly honest, where I live, most members of predator control boards, ranchers, farmers, sheep men, etc. honestly feel that any shot that has the possibility of making a coyote bleed and eventually die is an ethical shot. There are a lot of folks around here who hate predators with an unrivaled passion and they want every last one of them exterminated. If you are one of those people, then any shot is an ethical shot.

On the other hand, if you want a clean, humane kill, chances are your ability with a rifle is more of a determining factor than external ballistics. There isn't a shooter on the planet that can guarantee consistent one shot kills on a coyote at 600 yards with a 6.5X284 let alone with a .223.

As for all of this long range shooting nonsense, I think I have been pretty clear that long range shooting is diffcult and comes with no guarantees. Yeah, I shot a witnessed, lasered, p-dog last summer at 986 yards with a 7mm Sendero. The cost was over one dollar per yard and the action is now at Pac-Nor getting a new barrel. I shotthe barrels out of two varmint weight rifles last summer in the quest for a 1000 yard p-dog and still fell short of the mark. I refuse to build a heavy bench gun or rail gun for bragging rights to a 1000 yard varmint.

Can I shoot an egg a high percentage of the time with the first shot at say 600 yards? Of course not. However, an 8 inch steel gong at 500 yards, under a near zero value wind, no boiling mirage, is absolutely a piece of cake, period. Under good conditions, I have no ethical problem launching a round at a coyote at that yardage and I certainly am not suprised if it tips over dead. If I cripple the coyote, I'll do whatever it takes to recover the animal right up until the sun sets. Is that ethical? Again, only you can decide.
 
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Yeah, that!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif


Tell you what. All those who post on here about what a piece of cake it is to kill a coyote at 300, 400, and 500 yards, put up or shut up. Show up at the Annual PM Hunt in Globe and give everyone a demonstration of just how easily it can be done. They have a little contest there, where all you have to do is break an egg. That egg is just about the same size as the kill zone on a coyote.

So here's a chance for all you keyboard marksmen to not only show what you're really made of, but also be handsomely rewarded.

Of course, if you're only able to make those heroic shots when there are no wittnesses, welllll ....... we understand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



I hope you aren't referring to me with this statement, if not then I apologize for posting. I have only and exactly two long range kills, one was a MADE shot and the other was completely and totally luck. The MADE shot was 538 yards, I ranged it, doped the distance and windage and made the kill with a .308. The other was a coyote that would not come in even after exchanging challenge howls for about 15 minutes, I got discouraged and just was wanting to scare the crap out of him. I just put his chin at the bottom of the reticle and shot on that 1 and hit him just above the bridge of his nose. I didn't have a clue as to how far he was as I didn't have a rangefinder but I paced it off at 606 paces. This one was with a .223. All other kills have been under 225 yards for me. As I stated above if this wasn't directed to me then I apologize. I've never been so bold as to say " I can do it all day " as others do on here. Ask yotedr, he's seen me miss a couple of 400+ yard shots on 150lb feral pigs no less with a fast 25-06 with no wind and a down hill slope. That pig should have been in the freezer but oh well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 


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