Where to go to view the ultimate walking coyote sniping rifle?
- Thread starter 243kimber
- Start date
Originally Posted By: AWSBUT you put out the statement that "Junk begets junk" but you can't seem to be able to define JUNK.
Junk is a fluid term....I can buy a Barska or a Leupold for roughly the same price. One is junk, the other is not..this same theory applies to each and every facet of this discussion....rifles, scopes, boots, calls, all of it.....
The point of that statement, which I still believe, is that you cannot expect sub par equipment to produce exemplary results. As was reference earlier, a 2MOA rifle isnt going to shoot .5 MOA groups, no matter how hard you try, nor how much you want it to.
Junk is a fluid term....I can buy a Barska or a Leupold for roughly the same price. One is junk, the other is not..this same theory applies to each and every facet of this discussion....rifles, scopes, boots, calls, all of it.....
The point of that statement, which I still believe, is that you cannot expect sub par equipment to produce exemplary results. As was reference earlier, a 2MOA rifle isnt going to shoot .5 MOA groups, no matter how hard you try, nor how much you want it to.
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NdIndy
New member
Originally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: pyscodogHere's a solution to your question. Hook up with Orkan. He builds some bad azz rifles. He also offers courses in long range shooting. Not cheap but will take care of your needs. Hope Orkan doesn't mind me recommending him. Don't mind at all. We've got an Advanced Rifle Concepts course scheduled for may 12/13 with a few seats left available.
Originally Posted By: NdIndyA $100 rifle and $1000 of ammo will do better than a $10,000 rifle and no trigger time. All the trigger time in the world won't let you shoot a 1.5 MOA rifle to 1/2 MOA. The concept that practice can overcome bad equipment is a myth. I've had countless students show up to training with inferior gear and no matter what technique was developed, they could not perform. Yet when they swap over to another students more capable rifle, they start smashing. A truly remarkable number of guys this has happened to. They find that they are MUCH better shooters than they thought they were. They just didn't have the hardware that was up to the task.
243kimber, I have a few articles here which you may find of interest: http://www.primalrights.com/library/articles
And all the money in the world won't let you shoot submoa if you don't spend some time behind the trigger. A good shooter will make a cheap gun sit up and dance. A bad shooter with an expensive gun just turns into negative reviews about a gunmaker.
Learn to shoot, then spend money, not the other way around.
Some of my best shooting ended up with a 1.25 group. Darned proud of what I did with that $50 Mosin
that was more impressive to me than the cloverleafs I shot with my better guns.
I'm obviously not a competition level shooter
,
Originally Posted By: NdIndyA $100 rifle and $1000 of ammo will do better than a $10,000 rifle and no trigger time. All the trigger time in the world won't let you shoot a 1.5 MOA rifle to 1/2 MOA. The concept that practice can overcome bad equipment is a myth. I've had countless students show up to training with inferior gear and no matter what technique was developed, they could not perform. Yet when they swap over to another students more capable rifle, they start smashing. A truly remarkable number of guys this has happened to. They find that they are MUCH better shooters than they thought they were. They just didn't have the hardware that was up to the task.
243kimber, I have a few articles here which you may find of interest: http://www.primalrights.com/library/articles
And all the money in the world won't let you shoot submoa if you don't spend some time behind the trigger. A good shooter will make a cheap gun sit up and dance. A bad shooter with an expensive gun just turns into negative reviews about a gunmaker.
Learn to shoot, then spend money, not the other way around.
Some of my best shooting ended up with a 1.25 group. Darned proud of what I did with that $50 Mosin
I'm obviously not a competition level shooter
,
AWS
Custom Accessory Maker & Retired PM Staff
That's the problem, it is really hard to find a CF bolt action rifle that won't shoot under an inch and many with some careful attention will crowd that .5" mark. I believe the PM Egg Shoot has been won with two Stevens 200's and one of them wore a Barska. The equipment was capable and the shooter was having a good day.
Remember we are talking about a rifle to be packed a " mile or two " and set up for a shot on a coyote ", not a PD or bench gun.
Remember we are talking about a rifle to be packed a " mile or two " and set up for a shot on a coyote ", not a PD or bench gun.
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I cannot agree. I see no reason to handicap one's self with a rifle that wont shoot accurately and consistently from the beginning....learning fundamentals on inferior equipment can turn quickly discouraging and impart poor habits.
All this to say...you dont have to spend a sack of cash to get decent gear....but you cannot expect good results with less than decent gear. Its not about money..its about quality.
All this to say...you dont have to spend a sack of cash to get decent gear....but you cannot expect good results with less than decent gear. Its not about money..its about quality.
AWS
Custom Accessory Maker & Retired PM Staff
We're getting there from junk to decent gear, what is someone to look for to get decent gear, that covers a lot of territory.
For someone building/buying a rifle to pack a couple miles and set up for a coyote he sees, what would be your criteria?
I would never put a Barska on my rifle just for the fact that they have poor reputation(I've never looked through one)some of the airgun folks like them. If you go to some other sights they don't think very highly of Leupold, and I haven't had much luck with them either but they do have some scopes that aren't available elsewhere so I use them.
For someone building/buying a rifle to pack a couple miles and set up for a coyote he sees, what would be your criteria?
I would never put a Barska on my rifle just for the fact that they have poor reputation(I've never looked through one)some of the airgun folks like them. If you go to some other sights they don't think very highly of Leupold, and I haven't had much luck with them either but they do have some scopes that aren't available elsewhere so I use them.
orkan
Active member
Originally Posted By: NdIndyAnd all the money in the world won't let you shoot submoa if you don't spend some time behind the trigger. Actually, I've found this to not be true. I once held the same belief you do.
However, I've put enough people with next to no experience behind one of my rifles enough times to know that quality equipment can make a shooter have an easier time of things. Also, people always tell folks to "learn how to shoot, and then spend money" when in actuality the gear requirements must pace the skillset, and vice versa. If you do not have quality equipment, you will not know which errant shots are you vs which are the kit. You must be shooting something capable of much better precision than you are, in order to see and learn. If you try to apply corrective action to your technique and can't see if it worked or not because your technique improvement is masked behind a crappy gear set... then you'll never know right from wrong.
I've made a very successful career out of demonstrating this for people. Not telling, but showing. I could go on about it, but I've learned that most forum visitors truly don't care. They are convinced of whatever line of thinking they are accustomed to and will not deviate. Any suggestion that they do is met with resistance at best and usually hostility. Those that find me on their own through other channels are open to the ideas and always (yes, in every instance) find success when they are willing to listen and try. I'm made whole each day by helping those people. It's all my day is filled with. Helping folks on the phone and shooting, or reloading, or doing some other shooting-related thing. The answers are there for those that want them. All it takes is time.
It is a fact that all shooters benefit from the most precise and accurate equipment they can buy. Whether they can afford it or not is not my business. Though if there were no money, and all things were free... NO ONE would be using inferior kit of any kind. Everyone would always have the very best stuff and NO ONE would be advocating for the cheap trash.
However, I've put enough people with next to no experience behind one of my rifles enough times to know that quality equipment can make a shooter have an easier time of things. Also, people always tell folks to "learn how to shoot, and then spend money" when in actuality the gear requirements must pace the skillset, and vice versa. If you do not have quality equipment, you will not know which errant shots are you vs which are the kit. You must be shooting something capable of much better precision than you are, in order to see and learn. If you try to apply corrective action to your technique and can't see if it worked or not because your technique improvement is masked behind a crappy gear set... then you'll never know right from wrong.
I've made a very successful career out of demonstrating this for people. Not telling, but showing. I could go on about it, but I've learned that most forum visitors truly don't care. They are convinced of whatever line of thinking they are accustomed to and will not deviate. Any suggestion that they do is met with resistance at best and usually hostility. Those that find me on their own through other channels are open to the ideas and always (yes, in every instance) find success when they are willing to listen and try. I'm made whole each day by helping those people. It's all my day is filled with. Helping folks on the phone and shooting, or reloading, or doing some other shooting-related thing. The answers are there for those that want them. All it takes is time.
It is a fact that all shooters benefit from the most precise and accurate equipment they can buy. Whether they can afford it or not is not my business. Though if there were no money, and all things were free... NO ONE would be using inferior kit of any kind. Everyone would always have the very best stuff and NO ONE would be advocating for the cheap trash.
Originally Posted By: AWSSo where is the line between junk and un-junk, is it a dollar figure, if your gun cost over $2000. your will kill more coyotes than someone with a $400. gun. An accuracy figure, if your gun shoots .3" you will kill more coyotes than a person that can only get .75". Coyotes killed/rounds fired, which is just knowing your limitations.
You shoot what you are comfortable with, and does the job you want it to do. I hunt for pelts most of the time so my main concern is bullet damage which puts most big long range calibers out of the mix. I want to find these coyotes as they do me no good if they run off so accurate shooting is important. I hunt a lot of close cover a lot wouldn't do a stand in and I hunt all over, you name it.
I don't hate coyotes and the biggest rush for me is outsmarting them so getting them as close as possible is what makes this game interesting. For me killing a coyote at 10 yards is a high, potting one across the next zip code is less of a charge than shooting a really good group.
You tell me what the perfect rifle is for me? You build it on paper for me.
You strike me as a 22” 17 Remington in a McMillan classic sort of fellow, probably a #3 or #4 contour... would you like a custom action?
You shoot what you are comfortable with, and does the job you want it to do. I hunt for pelts most of the time so my main concern is bullet damage which puts most big long range calibers out of the mix. I want to find these coyotes as they do me no good if they run off so accurate shooting is important. I hunt a lot of close cover a lot wouldn't do a stand in and I hunt all over, you name it.
I don't hate coyotes and the biggest rush for me is outsmarting them so getting them as close as possible is what makes this game interesting. For me killing a coyote at 10 yards is a high, potting one across the next zip code is less of a charge than shooting a really good group.
You tell me what the perfect rifle is for me? You build it on paper for me.
You strike me as a 22” 17 Remington in a McMillan classic sort of fellow, probably a #3 or #4 contour... would you like a custom action?
The truth is, the dollar figure stems from the fact that people are prone to spend money on the things they care most about. It doesn’t bother me to spend 3-4,000 on a rifle and a couple more on an optic.... or $300 on a bass rod. That’s what I do, I don’t play much golf, and don’t really care for it, so I’ve got an old crappy set of hand-me-down clubs that are a little short but suit me just fine.
I get that not everyone can afford it, but when you do this long enough you start to get picky about equipment, and I don’t know a single coyote hunter that doesn’t buy the best stuff he can afford. Myself, I like rifles that can outshoot me.... only way to get better.
Right now, I want a Victory V8, but settled for a Conquest V6- which isn’t exactly cheap. I can guarantee you that I am killing more coyotes at night with good Zeiss scopes and a coyote light than I was with a Wicked and a Leupold. I’m 100% sure...
I get that not everyone can afford it, but when you do this long enough you start to get picky about equipment, and I don’t know a single coyote hunter that doesn’t buy the best stuff he can afford. Myself, I like rifles that can outshoot me.... only way to get better.
Right now, I want a Victory V8, but settled for a Conquest V6- which isn’t exactly cheap. I can guarantee you that I am killing more coyotes at night with good Zeiss scopes and a coyote light than I was with a Wicked and a Leupold. I’m 100% sure...
Originally Posted By: CZ527
You strike me as a 22” 17 Remington in a McMillan classic sort of fellow, probably a #3 or #4 contour... would you like a custom action?
Can't speak for AWS, but that would work for me
. My favorite calling rifle:
24" and .17 Predator, so a little more raw performance than you're recommendation. Mickey Classic though is spot on. Lilja #4 - not too heavy, not too light. For an action I went with a Model Seven that already had a Neil Jones trigger in it and had Greg Tannel do his full monte accurizing on it to include bolt bushing and the whole nine yards. Just thought the trim little M7 repeater action fit the application better than any of the customs available at the time.
It's a 400 yard killer. I'm not a 400 yard field shooter anymore though.
- DAA
You strike me as a 22” 17 Remington in a McMillan classic sort of fellow, probably a #3 or #4 contour... would you like a custom action?
Can't speak for AWS, but that would work for me
24" and .17 Predator, so a little more raw performance than you're recommendation. Mickey Classic though is spot on. Lilja #4 - not too heavy, not too light. For an action I went with a Model Seven that already had a Neil Jones trigger in it and had Greg Tannel do his full monte accurizing on it to include bolt bushing and the whole nine yards. Just thought the trim little M7 repeater action fit the application better than any of the customs available at the time.
It's a 400 yard killer. I'm not a 400 yard field shooter anymore though.
- DAA
Forest Ghost
New member
The only issue I have is the OP said he can get 1/2” groups from the bench with his set up. So the new rifle isn’t so he can shoot better, it’s the same reason we all get new rifles- it feels frickin nice! Haha a vertical grip, adjustable LOP, adjustable cheek rest, crisp trigger, palm swell to match your hand, balanced, sweet optic! You settle behind it and can lay there for hours. A comfortable hunter is a comfortable killer. So your current set up is more then capable but you’ve got a itch. [beeep] I get that itch too. Just look around and choose a build that’s more comfy, watch the adjustable stocks though- they may not go short enough if you have t-rex arms.
But you’ll kill more at 300-400, which is relatively close, if you break your issues you’ve got now. A 1/2” bench group with 243 can darn sure kill at 500 or more. That’s a practice thing, so again, get some training and I feel ya on the build thing. If McMillan had a cz 527 stock I liked i’d be buying one.
But you’ll kill more at 300-400, which is relatively close, if you break your issues you’ve got now. A 1/2” bench group with 243 can darn sure kill at 500 or more. That’s a practice thing, so again, get some training and I feel ya on the build thing. If McMillan had a cz 527 stock I liked i’d be buying one.
Ill admit I haven't read the entire thread but read a decent amount of it.
I'll agree with Orkan that you can't make a 2MOA rifle shoot 0.5" groups regardless of how much practice you have. You need good, reliable equipment and it certainly helps to practice a lot.
Confidence in your equipment builds good shots. I'm a competitive trap shooter and I've seen guys chase equipment and better guns to the tune of $20k+. Does it make them a better shooter? Sometimes, sometimes not. Lots of it is about gun fit too. Myself, I shoot a $2k Browning just as well as the guys with guns that cost as much as my truck. Because I'm confident in it, I practice lots and it fits me great. Now I realize shotguns and rifles are different but if you have a 1/2 MOA rifle already at 100 yards, I'm going to say that your issue is confidence/proper mechanics at longer ranges.
One thing I haven't heard much talk about in this thread is your dope at longer ranges... are you confident in your bullet drop past 250? I wasn't when I had a Leupold with the varmint hunter reticle. If you're just holding over for the long shots and guess bullet drop, you may need some practice/training there. I bought an expensive FFP Vortex Razor AMG and learned to use the turrets, reticle and learned my rifle better in one month than in 5 years of shooting the Leupold. Again, practice helps you learn here. I've dumped 2 coyotes past 500 this year with that rifle already.
All that being said, I'm in the process of building my own custom rifle (Surgeon action, Manners stock, CF Barrel) just because I want one and if it helps me get an extra coyote or two out past 600, I'll be happy.
The terrain and country you hunt in will determine shot distances. I hunt open prairies so it's not uncommon for a coyote to hang up at 900 yards.
I'll agree with Orkan that you can't make a 2MOA rifle shoot 0.5" groups regardless of how much practice you have. You need good, reliable equipment and it certainly helps to practice a lot.
Confidence in your equipment builds good shots. I'm a competitive trap shooter and I've seen guys chase equipment and better guns to the tune of $20k+. Does it make them a better shooter? Sometimes, sometimes not. Lots of it is about gun fit too. Myself, I shoot a $2k Browning just as well as the guys with guns that cost as much as my truck. Because I'm confident in it, I practice lots and it fits me great. Now I realize shotguns and rifles are different but if you have a 1/2 MOA rifle already at 100 yards, I'm going to say that your issue is confidence/proper mechanics at longer ranges.
One thing I haven't heard much talk about in this thread is your dope at longer ranges... are you confident in your bullet drop past 250? I wasn't when I had a Leupold with the varmint hunter reticle. If you're just holding over for the long shots and guess bullet drop, you may need some practice/training there. I bought an expensive FFP Vortex Razor AMG and learned to use the turrets, reticle and learned my rifle better in one month than in 5 years of shooting the Leupold. Again, practice helps you learn here. I've dumped 2 coyotes past 500 this year with that rifle already.
All that being said, I'm in the process of building my own custom rifle (Surgeon action, Manners stock, CF Barrel) just because I want one and if it helps me get an extra coyote or two out past 600, I'll be happy.
The terrain and country you hunt in will determine shot distances. I hunt open prairies so it's not uncommon for a coyote to hang up at 900 yards.
Very interesting thread. While I have my opinions, those opinions only work for me.
But, I thought this story, which is true, kind of amplifies what some of you are saying. My boss has gone to Thunder Ranch several times. In those years he participated in the 1000yd. rifle shoot, which he won twice. There were a lot of participants with some great setups for shooting those distances, but my boss showed up with a Rem. SPS in 308. He had bought the Rem. as a barreled action, replaced the trigger with a Jewel and installed it in one of our wood stocks. The mounts I believe were Burris Z's and Leupold scope of which power I don't recall. The ammo was Federal Gold Match. The fella's with the 1000yd setups were ribbed a lot by Clint Smith as to being beat by a wood stocked rifle with an over the counter barreled action.
In no way am I saying that the full custom setups aren't worth it or you don't gain anything from going that direction. Just thought it was a cool story.
I asked Wes what he would use if he went again, the same thing he said, but he'll have to find another stock or make another one since I believe we sold that one.LOL
But, I thought this story, which is true, kind of amplifies what some of you are saying. My boss has gone to Thunder Ranch several times. In those years he participated in the 1000yd. rifle shoot, which he won twice. There were a lot of participants with some great setups for shooting those distances, but my boss showed up with a Rem. SPS in 308. He had bought the Rem. as a barreled action, replaced the trigger with a Jewel and installed it in one of our wood stocks. The mounts I believe were Burris Z's and Leupold scope of which power I don't recall. The ammo was Federal Gold Match. The fella's with the 1000yd setups were ribbed a lot by Clint Smith as to being beat by a wood stocked rifle with an over the counter barreled action.
In no way am I saying that the full custom setups aren't worth it or you don't gain anything from going that direction. Just thought it was a cool story.
I asked Wes what he would use if he went again, the same thing he said, but he'll have to find another stock or make another one since I believe we sold that one.LOL
Same stock, McM Rem. Classic. Same barrel, Lilja #4. But a Nesika T this time, which is longer and heavier than a 700. Compared to the Model Seven in the other one, which is smaller and lighter than a 700. This one also has a heavier, bulkier scope on it than the Model Seven does.
Same stock, same barrel, same trigger pull. But a completely different feel to this rifle than the .17 Predator. I very much like the feel, balance and handling of the .17 Predator better with the Model Seven. Too much receiver and too much scope on this one. Not too much magnification, just too much bulk and weight tied up in that Zeiss. Ruins the balance and handling.
- DAA
Same stock, same barrel, same trigger pull. But a completely different feel to this rifle than the .17 Predator. I very much like the feel, balance and handling of the .17 Predator better with the Model Seven. Too much receiver and too much scope on this one. Not too much magnification, just too much bulk and weight tied up in that Zeiss. Ruins the balance and handling.
- DAA
Since this has turned into somewhat of a show off your rifle thread....
I started out calling with this; A CZ527 Varmint Kevlar in .223. I rapidly decided I needed a shorter tube than the 26" OEM...so I had it cut to 18, and threaded. While I was there, my smith talked me into chambering it in .223 Ackley. A DIP extended rail, with a Leupold Mark AR 3-9 , and a dipped HS Precision stock round it out.
I inherited the gun from my father, who sort of neglected his guns toward the end. The barrel in this one is a sewer pipe...there is a inch long portion of tube where the rifling is completely gone on one side. The rifle is a 12 twist gun, and shoots 50gr VMax at 3510fps a bit under an inch, and thats as good as she will do. Thats been plenty good enough for a LOT of dead critters....but time and experience made me want more...more speed, more bullet, more range
That rifle led to this....a trued 700 action wearing a 22" CM 8 twist Shilen tube in .22 Creedmoor. Stocky's Poly stock, Magpul DBM, Sightron Stac 3-16 in PRW rings on a set of XTR bases. This gun is currently shooting 69gr TMKs at 3550fps with boring sub half MOA accuracy. This will be the guns first full season....but everything indicates this wil be a winner....until the next thing
Everything is a progression....but starting out with decent gear allows one to focus on what you like and dont like, what you want to change, and what you want the same. Even with that sewer pipe barreled CZ, I know exactly what it will do, and what it wont...Accuracy is awesome, but consistency is even more awesomer.
I started out calling with this; A CZ527 Varmint Kevlar in .223. I rapidly decided I needed a shorter tube than the 26" OEM...so I had it cut to 18, and threaded. While I was there, my smith talked me into chambering it in .223 Ackley. A DIP extended rail, with a Leupold Mark AR 3-9 , and a dipped HS Precision stock round it out.
I inherited the gun from my father, who sort of neglected his guns toward the end. The barrel in this one is a sewer pipe...there is a inch long portion of tube where the rifling is completely gone on one side. The rifle is a 12 twist gun, and shoots 50gr VMax at 3510fps a bit under an inch, and thats as good as she will do. Thats been plenty good enough for a LOT of dead critters....but time and experience made me want more...more speed, more bullet, more range
That rifle led to this....a trued 700 action wearing a 22" CM 8 twist Shilen tube in .22 Creedmoor. Stocky's Poly stock, Magpul DBM, Sightron Stac 3-16 in PRW rings on a set of XTR bases. This gun is currently shooting 69gr TMKs at 3550fps with boring sub half MOA accuracy. This will be the guns first full season....but everything indicates this wil be a winner....until the next thing
Everything is a progression....but starting out with decent gear allows one to focus on what you like and dont like, what you want to change, and what you want the same. Even with that sewer pipe barreled CZ, I know exactly what it will do, and what it wont...Accuracy is awesome, but consistency is even more awesomer.