smallblockfuelie
New member
A running coyote at 350 yards in a 30 mile an hour wind? I am not a good enough shot to try it; perhaps if it were standing still I'd try.
which should i get ? .204 or 22-250?
- Thread starter chubbs
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Tactical .20
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I must be shooting or leading wrong then. I lead a body length or two depending on the angle or distance.T.20
Gentlemen! A little food for thought in the world of ballistics concerning shooting run away coyotes or any other animal for that matter.
Now for starters a 50 grain bullet going out of a 22-250 rifle, at an average velocity of 3600fps will take .4 tenths of a second to cover a 350 yard distance to the target in question.
Wind Drift of a 50 grain bullet in a 30 mph wind will cause it to go off course by some 43 plus inches if my math is correct at the distance of 350 yards.
A Coyote loping along at 10mph will cover at least 10 feet in .5 tenths of a second. The killing zone (vital zone) on a yote is less than 10" x 8" not counting the head mind you.
I would pay good money to see a hunter or shooter in a 30 mile per hour cross wind, aim on the head or nose of a running coyote and hit that critter some 32 inches towards the rearend.
If you do the math, stated results can NEVER happen period. So please lets NOT try to BS fellow hunters with your fantasy's.
Now for starters a 50 grain bullet going out of a 22-250 rifle, at an average velocity of 3600fps will take .4 tenths of a second to cover a 350 yard distance to the target in question.
Wind Drift of a 50 grain bullet in a 30 mph wind will cause it to go off course by some 43 plus inches if my math is correct at the distance of 350 yards.
A Coyote loping along at 10mph will cover at least 10 feet in .5 tenths of a second. The killing zone (vital zone) on a yote is less than 10" x 8" not counting the head mind you.
I would pay good money to see a hunter or shooter in a 30 mile per hour cross wind, aim on the head or nose of a running coyote and hit that critter some 32 inches towards the rearend.
If you do the math, stated results can NEVER happen period. So please lets NOT try to BS fellow hunters with your fantasy's.
Tonk,
I am not trying to BS anyone and it certainly is not a fantasy, because this is how I shoot running coyotes. This is under normal conditions. No high winds.
Your math is probablly correct. But it pertains to a gun that is not moving. If you are holding your gun still and waiting for the coyote to run into your field of view or simply pulling ahead of the coyote and stopping your swing when your pull the trigger, then the leads you describe might work. These methods would require you to judge feet and inches through your scope. A difficult task at best.
There are a few guidlines to hit a running coyote by aiming at fur.
Your must be standing.
You need some open land before the coyote gets out of sight.
A rifle with a medium to heavy barrel helps.
You must be thinking you have only one shot.
Practice.
We will say the coyote is running flat-out at 175 yards. Mount your rifle and put the cross hairs right on the shoulder. Follow the coyote a short distance with the rifle. Don't put a saddle on and ride forever. Usually 15 to 25 yards is plenty. Jerk the trigger and keep pushing the rifle through the line of the coyote. This is where a heavy barrel helps. It is hard to stop your swing while using one.
This method works with any angle. As the range increases your hold point goes towards the coyotes head and nose. Pretty simple.
I have aimed at the head of a running coyote many times and you would be surprised how often that is exactly where the bullet hit them.
This is the method I use. No guess work involved
and it is much easier to aim at fur than air. By the way the cartride is 3800 fps.
Just think how difficult the math would be on a coyote that was quartering to you at 175 yards and closing. In my opinion one of the toughest shots on a moving coyote.
Randy
I am not trying to BS anyone and it certainly is not a fantasy, because this is how I shoot running coyotes. This is under normal conditions. No high winds.
Your math is probablly correct. But it pertains to a gun that is not moving. If you are holding your gun still and waiting for the coyote to run into your field of view or simply pulling ahead of the coyote and stopping your swing when your pull the trigger, then the leads you describe might work. These methods would require you to judge feet and inches through your scope. A difficult task at best.
There are a few guidlines to hit a running coyote by aiming at fur.
Your must be standing.
You need some open land before the coyote gets out of sight.
A rifle with a medium to heavy barrel helps.
You must be thinking you have only one shot.
Practice.
We will say the coyote is running flat-out at 175 yards. Mount your rifle and put the cross hairs right on the shoulder. Follow the coyote a short distance with the rifle. Don't put a saddle on and ride forever. Usually 15 to 25 yards is plenty. Jerk the trigger and keep pushing the rifle through the line of the coyote. This is where a heavy barrel helps. It is hard to stop your swing while using one.
This method works with any angle. As the range increases your hold point goes towards the coyotes head and nose. Pretty simple.
I have aimed at the head of a running coyote many times and you would be surprised how often that is exactly where the bullet hit them.
This is the method I use. No guess work involved
and it is much easier to aim at fur than air. By the way the cartride is 3800 fps.
Just think how difficult the math would be on a coyote that was quartering to you at 175 yards and closing. In my opinion one of the toughest shots on a moving coyote.
Randy
R.Shaw........Well, I knew sooner or later I would meet up with someone from my old hunting grounds. Randy, I use to hunt deer and coyotes up in Milan long ago before they put that hog processing plant in the area. I remember when a lot of the roads were still clay.
I also understand how to hit a running target or lets say moving target from left to right or right to left. I shoot skeet a lot at the gun club I belong to OK. I have found that it is a lot easyier to hit a 40 mph clay bird going left to right at 20 yards with a shotgun than a loping coyote at 350 yards in a heavy wind.
Randy, one other thing I would like to mention to you is this.....Don't go by what is printed on the box of ammo you shoot OK. Even though the manufacturer may list a velocity of 3800fps. If you run several of them through a Chrony you will find out that your lucky to break that 3600fps. Barnes reloading manual is more like 3400fps to 3500fps as a MAX load using their coated XLC bullet.
However, you listed a distance of 175 yards! At that range the bullet takes less than .2 of a second flight time to reach it's intended target. There is one WHALE OF A DIFFERENCE in hitting a coyote at 175 yards verses 350 yards understand.
I do hope you agree on that point? Holding your crosshairs on its nose....HOLD ON, we forgot that 30 mile per hour cross wind also that was mentioned in that above post.....Yikes! Another "monkey wrench" to deal with, anybody got a calculator handy?
Now you can see where I am coming from, not only from a hunters point of view but from a mathematical point of view as well. It can't be done what so ever!!! Not given the information of the POST stated on the forum. I am NOT trying to whip anyone with a "cat of nine tales" however I do believe that those who post, should give realistic and true statements, else leave them out for the barber shop readeric in one own town.
Now at 350 yards as was stated in that same post, I doubt very seriously weather the boys on the rifle team at Fort Benning Ga. or the boys shooting at Camp Perry could even get close to that running coyote, let alone kill the critter.
By the way the actual flight time of a bullet going 175 yards at 3600fps is under .2tenths (.190 seconds)however it makes little difference because it just won't add up to a HIT or Kill on Mr. Yote. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Good hunting Randy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I also understand how to hit a running target or lets say moving target from left to right or right to left. I shoot skeet a lot at the gun club I belong to OK. I have found that it is a lot easyier to hit a 40 mph clay bird going left to right at 20 yards with a shotgun than a loping coyote at 350 yards in a heavy wind.
Randy, one other thing I would like to mention to you is this.....Don't go by what is printed on the box of ammo you shoot OK. Even though the manufacturer may list a velocity of 3800fps. If you run several of them through a Chrony you will find out that your lucky to break that 3600fps. Barnes reloading manual is more like 3400fps to 3500fps as a MAX load using their coated XLC bullet.
However, you listed a distance of 175 yards! At that range the bullet takes less than .2 of a second flight time to reach it's intended target. There is one WHALE OF A DIFFERENCE in hitting a coyote at 175 yards verses 350 yards understand.
I do hope you agree on that point? Holding your crosshairs on its nose....HOLD ON, we forgot that 30 mile per hour cross wind also that was mentioned in that above post.....Yikes! Another "monkey wrench" to deal with, anybody got a calculator handy?
Now you can see where I am coming from, not only from a hunters point of view but from a mathematical point of view as well. It can't be done what so ever!!! Not given the information of the POST stated on the forum. I am NOT trying to whip anyone with a "cat of nine tales" however I do believe that those who post, should give realistic and true statements, else leave them out for the barber shop readeric in one own town.
Now at 350 yards as was stated in that same post, I doubt very seriously weather the boys on the rifle team at Fort Benning Ga. or the boys shooting at Camp Perry could even get close to that running coyote, let alone kill the critter.
By the way the actual flight time of a bullet going 175 yards at 3600fps is under .2tenths (.190 seconds)however it makes little difference because it just won't add up to a HIT or Kill on Mr. Yote. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Good hunting Randy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Tonk, you're really close here. You're on the right track but it’s even a little more extreme than you've described. I've been in this argument before and after about three weeks I finally won with mathematics and calculations. I have all the diagrams and numbers on my computer at home but I remember part of it. I’ve heard much more drastic (Ludicrous) scenarios than the one you have taken on here but this one is still pretty wicked.
A coyote’s LOPE is approximately 8mph. This is their average cruising speed under hunting or calling conditions. They are capable of sprint speeds of 25-27mph. The phrase “run” would implicate the faster speeds but we’ll need clarification on the animals speed before we can put it into the leading program. We also need an angle of approach or retreat for calculations. I often use broadside because even that calculation will blow peoples minds! Angle towards or away will complicate the situation a little more but just for kicks I usually leave it at perpendicular crossing.
Once you have the speed of the bullet you can calculate the TOF, time of flight, and decide how far the animal is going to be off the mark when the bullet arrives. There is an awesome program that does it for you… I don’t have that information here though. Bottom line is that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 350 yard “running” shot is HARD… with 30 MPH crosswinds… EXTREMELY HARD… leading the coyote into a pushing wind only 24-30”… IMPOSSIBLE. I know, that’s a big word… but with this amount of information its fair to say that word…. 2+2+2 NEVER equals seven. Sorry, it’s always six.
The 22-250 is awesome; it’s my pill of choice for sure. It’s more than capable of long shots, capable of bucking some decent breezes and has plenty of knock down when it touches tissue. It’s just important to keep it in check for guys asking legitimate questions. I wouldn’t normally be such an expert on this situation but I’ve been over this with someone before…. Actually he was from New Mexico… hmmmm.
A coyote’s LOPE is approximately 8mph. This is their average cruising speed under hunting or calling conditions. They are capable of sprint speeds of 25-27mph. The phrase “run” would implicate the faster speeds but we’ll need clarification on the animals speed before we can put it into the leading program. We also need an angle of approach or retreat for calculations. I often use broadside because even that calculation will blow peoples minds! Angle towards or away will complicate the situation a little more but just for kicks I usually leave it at perpendicular crossing.
Once you have the speed of the bullet you can calculate the TOF, time of flight, and decide how far the animal is going to be off the mark when the bullet arrives. There is an awesome program that does it for you… I don’t have that information here though. Bottom line is that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 350 yard “running” shot is HARD… with 30 MPH crosswinds… EXTREMELY HARD… leading the coyote into a pushing wind only 24-30”… IMPOSSIBLE. I know, that’s a big word… but with this amount of information its fair to say that word…. 2+2+2 NEVER equals seven. Sorry, it’s always six.
The 22-250 is awesome; it’s my pill of choice for sure. It’s more than capable of long shots, capable of bucking some decent breezes and has plenty of knock down when it touches tissue. It’s just important to keep it in check for guys asking legitimate questions. I wouldn’t normally be such an expert on this situation but I’ve been over this with someone before…. Actually he was from New Mexico… hmmmm.
Actually, I do not own a centerfire rifle that has ever shot a factory round. The chronograph spit out a 3800 fps average.
I simply posted in order for others to think outside the box. Under normal hunting conditions, a hold on a moving coyote from 0-300 yards will produce results with proper technique.
I also shoot a shotgun quite a bit. Bear in mind the target is 3 times faster than a coyote and the projectile is 3 times slower than a rifle.
Randy
I simply posted in order for others to think outside the box. Under normal hunting conditions, a hold on a moving coyote from 0-300 yards will produce results with proper technique.
I also shoot a shotgun quite a bit. Bear in mind the target is 3 times faster than a coyote and the projectile is 3 times slower than a rifle.
Randy
Okay, checked it out.
3800FPS out of a 22-250 with NO wind and a 90° (perpendicular) shot at an object moving 20MPH will require 5.7' of lead. Period. No debate about that... its math. Any variable you can throw in on top of that situation could only qualify for an inch or two difference either way. If your aiming at his nose.... you've got limousine coyotes.
I understand you're a good wingshooter. I shoot clays myself, I'm nothing special, I shoot 75's on good days and 71's on my bad ones. There is a ton of useful experience to be gained on the sporting clays and that can definatly be transposed to the rifle range. Ballistics plays an important role in shooting your rifle the way you shoot your shotgun... with a shotgun you can throw clays and learn from trial and error. Moving shots with a rifle are much more rare and often vary in ranges much more than shotgun wing shots.... there is obviously MUCH more involved.
3800FPS out of a 22-250 with NO wind and a 90° (perpendicular) shot at an object moving 20MPH will require 5.7' of lead. Period. No debate about that... its math. Any variable you can throw in on top of that situation could only qualify for an inch or two difference either way. If your aiming at his nose.... you've got limousine coyotes.
I understand you're a good wingshooter. I shoot clays myself, I'm nothing special, I shoot 75's on good days and 71's on my bad ones. There is a ton of useful experience to be gained on the sporting clays and that can definatly be transposed to the rifle range. Ballistics plays an important role in shooting your rifle the way you shoot your shotgun... with a shotgun you can throw clays and learn from trial and error. Moving shots with a rifle are much more rare and often vary in ranges much more than shotgun wing shots.... there is obviously MUCH more involved.
Nope. Just ordinary coyotes here.
I am not trying to compare shotgun shooting to rifle shooting. However, there are simularities in technique.
On the bench, put your crosshairs on a target at 100 yards. Now leaving the butt stationary, move the end of your barrel 1/4 inch. Providing your rifle is about 4 feet long, this translates to almost 19 inches to the left or right depending on which direction you moved the barrel. At 200 yards it is over 3 feet.
Now I am shooting at a moving coyote at 200 yards. The butt is staionary against my shoulder and as I jerk the trigger, I move the barrel a quarter of an inch. You get the picture.
Of course this isn't how it works in the real world. My shoulder probablly isn't all that staionary and who knows how far the barrel has moved between the time I tell myself to pull the trigger and it is actually pulled. But the important thing is the gun is moving. I have followed the coyote a few yards with crosshairs all over the place and when the shot looks good I fire. But I am shooting at fur and not air.
Randy
I am not trying to compare shotgun shooting to rifle shooting. However, there are simularities in technique.
On the bench, put your crosshairs on a target at 100 yards. Now leaving the butt stationary, move the end of your barrel 1/4 inch. Providing your rifle is about 4 feet long, this translates to almost 19 inches to the left or right depending on which direction you moved the barrel. At 200 yards it is over 3 feet.
Now I am shooting at a moving coyote at 200 yards. The butt is staionary against my shoulder and as I jerk the trigger, I move the barrel a quarter of an inch. You get the picture.
Of course this isn't how it works in the real world. My shoulder probablly isn't all that staionary and who knows how far the barrel has moved between the time I tell myself to pull the trigger and it is actually pulled. But the important thing is the gun is moving. I have followed the coyote a few yards with crosshairs all over the place and when the shot looks good I fire. But I am shooting at fur and not air.
Randy
I agree with you R. Shaw.
The math doesn't lie. But, it doesn't tell the whole story either.
I've hit a lot of running varmints. More jack rabbits than anything, but quite a few running coyotes too.
I do know the math involved. So I know that the method I use on running shots (which sounds very similar to yours), doesn't "add up", or sound "possible" if expresssed in hard numbers. But, I kill more than my fair share of runners, so something must be working.
- DAA
The math doesn't lie. But, it doesn't tell the whole story either.
I've hit a lot of running varmints. More jack rabbits than anything, but quite a few running coyotes too.
I do know the math involved. So I know that the method I use on running shots (which sounds very similar to yours), doesn't "add up", or sound "possible" if expresssed in hard numbers. But, I kill more than my fair share of runners, so something must be working.
- DAA
Well I'm beginning to smell a similar argument than one from the past... the deflection of a moving barrell is slinging the bullet all that much. As I said the remaining variables can account for inches and in some cases COULD adjust for as much as six inches but barrell swing is compensated... how else would you still have the target aquired in your scope to varify lead? Its all right there in the program, or in the pudding as they say.
I'd like to clear one thing up fast, it's has been mistaken in the past, I have shot MANY MANY animals on the run. I am in NO WAY saying its impossible, some are difficult... some are pretty easy chipshots. I'm not saying that moving or running or jogging shots are all that complicated... the ONE PARTICULAR situation that has been mentioned here is not average. Of the coyotes I've killed I estimate about 80% of them were moving... still shots are hard to come by in the calling world.
Fast bullets make up for a lot of miscompensation for riflemen, that helps a lot. To clarify, I'm just saying that the math doesn't work out with the lead explained... change the lead... change the distance.... change the coyote from running to walking or trotting and we may be able to work something out, otherwise I'm sticking with impossible. I'm not saying anyone is lying, it just seems like maybe it needs to be revisited. Id like to find a way to setup a moving target.... like a swinging tire or something to practice on. That would humble a guy really quick! :}
I'd like to clear one thing up fast, it's has been mistaken in the past, I have shot MANY MANY animals on the run. I am in NO WAY saying its impossible, some are difficult... some are pretty easy chipshots. I'm not saying that moving or running or jogging shots are all that complicated... the ONE PARTICULAR situation that has been mentioned here is not average. Of the coyotes I've killed I estimate about 80% of them were moving... still shots are hard to come by in the calling world.
Fast bullets make up for a lot of miscompensation for riflemen, that helps a lot. To clarify, I'm just saying that the math doesn't work out with the lead explained... change the lead... change the distance.... change the coyote from running to walking or trotting and we may be able to work something out, otherwise I'm sticking with impossible. I'm not saying anyone is lying, it just seems like maybe it needs to be revisited. Id like to find a way to setup a moving target.... like a swinging tire or something to practice on. That would humble a guy really quick! :}
Gentlemen! First off I wish to reiterate, what I stated in my post.....I am NOT trying to make someone look foolish or that they can or can't do a particular thing with their rifle hunting coyotes. I am speaking of facts to take an animal at a given yardage with a given lead on the animal at a given velocity of the bullet, with a given 30 mile per hour crosswind as indicated in that person post. Now I say it CAN NOT be done period!!! Under those conditions, it would take a miracle to get done.
My background as a shooter goes way back when, mid-60's I started learning about certain things one must know to make hits on targets way out younder way, thanks to Uncle Sam and His expertise. I shot before any serious range instruction, 3rd highest out of a battalion of 800 men on the range. I was choosen for a particular task and schooled. Ended up shooting in the top 5 out of 4 Battalions (3200 men)with a 7.625 or .308 in todays circles. I shot at 1000 yard targets a bunch in my day and hunted near most things in this North American continent as a hunter. I have shot at running game and hit them as well as missed! It is a risky business on running big game. However, I don't feel bad about missing a coyote ever, there's always another day to hunt them in my mind.
The POST I jumped on is talking about hitting a coyote at "350 yards" running,.... NOT 175 or 200 yards. There is one heck of a difference, so lets stick to the given facts of said POST please. Also one thing I wish to add about this 22-250 ammo once again, we have Chronyed ammo that was to be 3800fps and ended up being 3560fps and 3640fps etc. NOT 3800fps.....Unless your handloading this ammo and using a Chrony YOU are guessing as to what the actual velocity is period. We use 2 such Chrony's to double check each other.
My background as a shooter goes way back when, mid-60's I started learning about certain things one must know to make hits on targets way out younder way, thanks to Uncle Sam and His expertise. I shot before any serious range instruction, 3rd highest out of a battalion of 800 men on the range. I was choosen for a particular task and schooled. Ended up shooting in the top 5 out of 4 Battalions (3200 men)with a 7.625 or .308 in todays circles. I shot at 1000 yard targets a bunch in my day and hunted near most things in this North American continent as a hunter. I have shot at running game and hit them as well as missed! It is a risky business on running big game. However, I don't feel bad about missing a coyote ever, there's always another day to hunt them in my mind.
The POST I jumped on is talking about hitting a coyote at "350 yards" running,.... NOT 175 or 200 yards. There is one heck of a difference, so lets stick to the given facts of said POST please. Also one thing I wish to add about this 22-250 ammo once again, we have Chronyed ammo that was to be 3800fps and ended up being 3560fps and 3640fps etc. NOT 3800fps.....Unless your handloading this ammo and using a Chrony YOU are guessing as to what the actual velocity is period. We use 2 such Chrony's to double check each other.
I would say, If I had to make a guess at the subject of how many coyotes I have shot and killed over the last 35 years, it would be a figure near 450 or so. Now that is a rough estimate of 12 to 15 yotes a year. Now out of that 400 or so Yote critters, I can count on both hands how many were shot while running along or away from me. Only about 2% of the yotes have been on running shots.
Well Green, that could probably be accomplished with some changes in my hunting stratagies. I could leave my nephews and friends at home and take all the easy shots for myself. I could get someone to call for me instead of calling for others. I could leave the video camera at home. I move to an area that has a lot of open ground and less up close & fast action like these rolling hills do.
Yeah, there are a lot of things but I’ll keep widdling away on what I can control. Target practice, calling lessons & experience in the woods… and if they’re dying why change things anyway? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Honestly we do miss a lot of critters around here, partially because my friends are new with rifles & at predator calling. Since we can’t hunt anything with a rifle in Indiana not all hunters are up to speed with centerfire rifle accuracy… out west a rifle is a way of life but out here it’s the scatter gun or rimfire.
Yeah, there are a lot of things but I’ll keep widdling away on what I can control. Target practice, calling lessons & experience in the woods… and if they’re dying why change things anyway? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Honestly we do miss a lot of critters around here, partially because my friends are new with rifles & at predator calling. Since we can’t hunt anything with a rifle in Indiana not all hunters are up to speed with centerfire rifle accuracy… out west a rifle is a way of life but out here it’s the scatter gun or rimfire.
On a strait up situation with no problems the shooter will often have the luxury of a stationary shot but in the situations where I hunt alone or hunt as the backup shot I rarely get the motionless shot.
I've screwed up several hunting alone because I let them get too close and they busted me when I tried to stop them with a call. I'm not a calling expert by any means... I've messed up several with the call itself. I'm good with the shooting and the setups but I work best by hitting play on my Johnny Stewart.
Come to think of it, I don't know if its coyote fever or what but I don't think i've ever stopped a coyote with a call for myself. I've twice had to shout at an oncoming coyote to stop or slow it, once I killed it and the other time a partner did... both under 15 yards with rifles! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Missed those setups bad!
Bottom line is I definatly need more calling training... If it weren't for my reasonable capabilities with a rifle my kill numbers would be much worse! When are you coming over to teach me a few calls green? Doors always open!
I've screwed up several hunting alone because I let them get too close and they busted me when I tried to stop them with a call. I'm not a calling expert by any means... I've messed up several with the call itself. I'm good with the shooting and the setups but I work best by hitting play on my Johnny Stewart.
Come to think of it, I don't know if its coyote fever or what but I don't think i've ever stopped a coyote with a call for myself. I've twice had to shout at an oncoming coyote to stop or slow it, once I killed it and the other time a partner did... both under 15 yards with rifles! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Missed those setups bad!
Bottom line is I definatly need more calling training... If it weren't for my reasonable capabilities with a rifle my kill numbers would be much worse! When are you coming over to teach me a few calls green? Doors always open!
Bayou City Boy
New member
I have not been without at least one 22/250 for the past 35 years, but the day my 20 Tactical (a ballistic twin of the 204 Ruger)is not enought gun for coyotes is the day I start using a 20 MM cannon and hand grenades on 'em.
Loaded with a good 35-40 grain bullet, the 20 caliber is deadly on coyotes and shoots very flat to long ranges. I also have a new light weight 204 Ruger, and hopefully it will shoot the 40's. If it does, it will make a great calling/walking rifle. Just my opinion - BCB
Loaded with a good 35-40 grain bullet, the 20 caliber is deadly on coyotes and shoots very flat to long ranges. I also have a new light weight 204 Ruger, and hopefully it will shoot the 40's. If it does, it will make a great calling/walking rifle. Just my opinion - BCB