Why the trend to fast twist heavy bullets in .223?

ninehorses

ninehorses

New member
I run the numbers on a 55 grain versus a 69 grain bullet and it just doesn't make sense. At normal hunting ranges, say out to 350 yards, the 55 grain bullets seems the obvious winner (flatter-faster). Longer ranges, shooting paper or steel gongs, prone or off the bench, I can understand that, but shooting a animal? Off your butt, off sticks? Your running out of energy fast with either bullet, so expansion and bullet performance become a issue, especially when you stretch the range to 400-500 yards. Speed has dropped to slightly more than a .22 long rifle at the muzzle. Where again the 55 grain will work better than the heavier jacketed 69. The 69 will carry slightly more energy, but will more than likely act like a FMJ.(BTDT) I do know about wind drift, but again the speed of the 55 makes up for that at normal hunting ranges. I often take the 55's to 600 yards on a gong. I have killed lots of things with a 55 grain Nosler for many years. Even a Angus bull!

Another thought I had, is that if you get a critter at your feet, the 55 grain will work better here as well.

Let's stay with just the .223 in this thread, so no 22-250 .243, or 25-06 is better, PLEASE!

Your thoughts? Prove me wrong. Just back it up with facts, or personal results, please. Not stirring the pot, just bored.
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesI run the numbers on a 55 grain versus a 69 grain bullet and it just doesn't make sense. At normal hunting ranges, say out to 350 yards, the 55 grain bullets seems the obvious winner (flatter-faster). Longer ranges, shooting paper or steel gongs, prone or off the bench, I can understand that, but shooting a animal? Off your butt, off sticks? Your running out of energy fast with either bullet, so expansion and bullet performance become a issue, especially when you stretch the range to 400-500 yards. Speed has dropped to slightly more than a .22 long rifle at the muzzle. Where again the 55 grain will work better than the heavier jacketed 69. The 69 will carry slightly more energy, but will more than likely act like a FMJ.(BTDT) I do know about wind drift, but again the speed of the 55 makes up for that at normal hunting ranges. I often take the 55's to 600 yards on a gong. I have killed lots of things with a 55 grain Nosler for many years. Even a Angus bull!

Another thought I had, is that if you get a critter at your feet, the 55 grain will work better here as well.

Let's stay with just the .223 in this thread, so no 22-250 .243, or 25-06 is better, PLEASE!

Your thoughts? Prove me wrong. Just back it up with facts, or personal results, please. Not stirring the pot, just bored.

I went through a heavy bullet phase, and quit it.

I prefer 55gr plastic tip bullets for fuzzy targets at any range now.

(But the .220 Swift IS better
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de' debil made me say dat!)
 
I don't shoot anything heavier than a 55 grain bullet in any of my 223's, with one exception....I do have a bunch of 62 grain FMJ surplus stuff, just in case, you know. I cannot tell you how many 60 grain and 69 grain bullets I have just sitting on the shelf, and no plans to use them. Now, I am a hunter, not a target shooter, and I use the 223 on nothing bigger than coyotes. If I have a need for heavier bullets, or want to shoot bigger game, then I'll go with a larger caliber that's designed for such. I am of the opinion that the 223 works best when loaded with lightweight bullets being pushed as fast as possible. My favorite load is the 50 grain VXax running along at around 3350 fps out of a 22 inch barrel. It shoots flat, and it kills good. I know that the military went to the heavier AR bullets because they were better on the battleground, and they're probably right about that. But, I'm not killing zombies with my 223's, not yet anyway, I'm after much smaller critters and therefore don't see the need for the heavy bullets.
 
I shoot all 55-69 get band have never seen much difference in kill shot with either. My rifle and Ar are both 1-7 twist. The Ar will shoot 55gr nosler bt pretty decent but my bolt will not. I killed a bobcat at 425 with a 69 gr smk and it was just down. I shot one with a 55 and it came off the ground probally 5 feet and off through the brush. Had to find that one. I normally hunt on cut cot or alfalfa fields so it's 900 yds from edge of pivot to edge of pivot and I sit in the center. I personally like the heavy bullets but like I said I have a 1-7 not 1-9/1-12 twist rifle
 
I've had some of the same thoughts. For coyotes at 300 yds or less it seems to me that 50-55 gr polymer tipped bullets are perfect. And I personally wouldn't shoot at an animal any further than that with any of my .223, but I know some guys do.

My 223 bolt gun has a 10 twist, and it shoots 50-55 weight very well, so does my 20" PP upper with an 8 twist. I will also shoot some 69 smks out of the AR for fun though.

This is a good point of discussion because internet wisdom, especially in the "tactical" arena, can have someone who doesn't know better thinking they're missing out if they're not running 70gr + vld's out of a fast twist barrel
 
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I have been loading and shooting a 220 swift's for 54 years, Would, I build a 220 swift with a 1-9 twist barrel. Are you nuts!!! I load 45gr HP bullets. When it was legal I shot whitetail deer with a swift. They just fall over. Ground hogs turn in to pink mist. When, I shoot .223 bullets I have the need for speed. I load my 223rem, 45gr@3600fps. Now, that in a 1-12 rifle is deadly. For myself I want a flat shooting rifle. That is what a varmint rifle is all about.
 
I am not trying to "prove you wrong" because there is no right and wrong. Unless we are speaking of physics, in which the heavier bullets are the better long range projectiles, if you "do the math".

I choose my twist/bullets based on what I want to do with the firearm. And yes, regarding the .223, I am a "fast twist/heavy bullet guy". But that is based on what I use them for. I have one that I shoot both deer and coyotes with. I run 70gr TSXs and it is twisted 1-8". I have another that is twisted 1-9" and pretty much run 69gr SMKs exclusively. It is a target rifle mainly used for egg shoots.

Both of these bullets do that for which they were designed VERY WELL. And they do it further out than any 50-55gr bullet could ever hope to. Again, I don't consider this an opinion, but more a matter of physics. Simply put, they drift less and retain higher amount of energy at greater distances.

This is not to say the lighter offerings do not have their place. It just depends on what you do with the gun. I have 2 22-250s. I run 55gr BSTs out of one. And I have a 204 that runs 40gr V-maxes. Both bullets traveling faster than any 223 can push them. So I have no need, nor want, to run lighter bullets out of my .223s............
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I believe the trend towards fast twist is so you get the option to fire 40 thru 80 gr bullets. Doesn't mean you have to shoot bigger bullets. If you settle for 1:12 twist you are restricting your options.

Tom
 
If you don't plan on shooting real far, and nothing larger than a coyote say, there is no need for above said fast/heavy combo. MOF, it would be LESS than optimal as twist/barrel life are concerned.

Running a faster twist is only a good thing if you actually need it.........
 
I'm simply relieved emotionally to know I haven't been doing anything that was "just wrong" by using a .223 with a slow twist barrel. I do have a couple of AR's with faster twist barrels but I don't see any great advantage in using them for what I do. Other options simply work better if needed.

I even tried an 8" twist Tikka (I know, it's deplorable to admit it here) a few years back and I traded it away with no apparent loss of virtue. Or ballistic advantage.

So, if "Running a faster twist is only a good thing if you actually need it.........", why is the time long ago past due for when "somebody figures out how to twist a 22-250 properly.............."? For barrel life and general use for what they were designed for, maybe they're OK as is?

WHEW.
 
Count me in as one of the "middle of the road" bullet weight guys. The only .224 bore gun that I own that I shoot bullets any heavier than 50 grain is my .220 Swift and even then I stop at 55 grain. For my shooting, heavier bullets simply are not needed.

That 705 yard prairie dog (and 3 others around it) I killed with a 50 grain Vmax was with my .223 AI. That barrel has a 1/14" twist which is the way that I ordered it. My AR-15 varminter and my Swift have 1/14" twist as well.

I am not saying that there is not a place for fast twist guns, I am just saying that there is not a place in my safe for fast twist guns. I literally and simply have no use for them.
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunIf you don't plan on shooting real far, and nothing larger than a coyote say, there is no need for above said fast/heavy combo. MOF, it would be LESS than optimal as twist/barrel life are concerned.

Running a faster twist is only a good thing if you actually need it.........

This seems to be the best advice on the matter, according to what I've been told by gunsmiths I have asked. Decide what you want to do with said 22 cal, and set it up accordingly.

There has to be some trade off to the "use a faster twist than you need for your bullet of choice just in case theory"....
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesThat is my problem, I did the math, and the 69's don't gain much advantage until you pass 500 yards.


If I am gong to be shooting at something at 500 yards, and I have my choice as to what I shoot, it won't be with a 223.
 
According to hornady ballistics calc., the bullet trajectory and wind drift between 69 smk and 55 nolser bt is very negligible in a 10 mph crosswind. The 69 does win out by a good margin on energy though.

The 53 gr vmax has a BC of 2.90, not much lower than the 69's .301. Might be the best compromise bullet in the mid weight range. I know my 10 twist Tikka shoots it well.
 
By reading the various posts, it is apparent, like I said, that some feel they have a need for faster/heavier, and some don't. That is why we all have been given the choice by the manufacturers to choose faster or slower twists in our 223s, and lighter or heavier bullets.

As for the "trend" toward heavier bullets, I think many are just exercising an option that they always haven't had. Many of the heavier bullets have not been around for long, while the lighter projectiles have been around forever. Some have a use for the heavies, some don't.

Bullet technology also has much to do with what a 223 is/can be used for today, as compared to years past.

Figure out what best suits your needs and take it from there. Options are nice to have.....

 
Originally Posted By: kymailman98Originally Posted By: ninehorsesThat is my problem, I did the math, and the 69's don't gain much advantage until you pass 500 yards.


If I am gong to be shooting at something at 500 yards, and I have my choice as to what I shoot, it won't be with a 223.

Exactly what I was thinking. The difference between what you can force a su-optimal choice to do vs the right tool for the job.

I also suspect some of the answer lies in the increasing tend/interest in using AR platforms for deer and hogs.

Grouse
 


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