Wolf shot in SD

I too went through the site.

It is powerful proof that wolves will always behave like wolves. It also is powerful proof that management programs need to be in place.

It is not proof that wolves are evil, or that wolves should be shot on sight. It also leaves out the "other side" of the question. Banff is a good example. Elk in Banff (and in Jasper) had reached the point where they were far more dangerous to humans than wolves. They needed management and serious herd reduction to protect people from collisions and actual attacks, to protect the destruction of their own habitat, and to control disease.

There are two sides to all these questions. The Bergerid/Elliot study actually concludes that wolves will not exterminate any prey species. Population densities will be lower in the presence of predation, but "Some young always survived" (pg 1566)

I will say again, I am not opposed to management of wildlife through hunting; I am opposed to the idea that any animal is evil and needs to be killed by any means at any time.

I also disagree with the idea that they are "Our Elk" and with the idea that the elk population must be kept at an unrealistic level to ensure high hunter success rates. The absolutely natural fact that wolves hunt ungulates is not justification for killing them.

The fact that nature is without conscience and is often viciously cruel is also not justification for killing wolves. That's just the way it is and always has been.

Management should be planned as a means of minimizing the natural boom/bust cycle of populations, not just as a means of keeping one economically valuable species at the cost of another. It should be about ecology, not pure economics.

And hunters must never poach or illegally kill game of any kind.
 
Quote:
I also disagree with the idea that they are "Our Elk"



Maybe this is different between countries, but here in the US, they ARE "our elk". In many cases bought and payed for with private dollars (ever heard of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation) for the good of the public. Management goals are set by the state...which is funded solely by OUR hunting/sporting dollars. So you see they are OUR elk. And I think you are arguing with yourself on the wolf management, almost everybody here has been advocating a management plan to keep the wolves in check, but unlike Canada where they are hunted, wolves here are off limits. I don't think anybody here is advocating the complete annihilation of the species.
 
Because of human expansion in my state the wintering grounds and calving grounds are much smaller than they were 100 years ago, thus condensing populations into small areas around here. The calf survival rate is very very low because of this. Elk were plains animals before humans came along where they could have very large herds and have the advantage of seeing them come. Back then the wolves served a great purpose in thinning the weak and whatever else they could get.

Basically its like putting a pirannah in a gold fish tank- instead of the nile river where things have a chance to hide or get away. Like your elk in canada!
 
Wow!! This was real interesting,got to agree it should be up to the states to regulate any hunting,not courts or liberals from anywhere. LGC22 your wolves are hunted so fear humans,any state that has a wolf pop. should have a season even if very limited, keep the fear in them. On bears, like 4949 I've bounced a stick of stove wood of a bear here in mass in my yard,and only got a dumb look,but go to maine and step on a twig and it's gone in a flash.All this and no one knows the complete story about the SD hunter. Maybe someone from Maine can remember this,about10-12 years a hunter killed a wolf off a bear bait in Grindstone or Oxbow I think. He told his guide a wolf came to the bait and the guide said it's just a big coyote, shoot it. He did and the feds took it,tested it and said wolf. There were no fines or charges I think,and some question wether it had been released. My point is that it could have been the same,or maybe wolves,{or cougars} sometimes go on a "walkabout". Anyway the this turned into a big debate, and what about the SD wolf?
 
Ya'll keep talking about game management. Maybe in some states it is a fine thing the people do who are charged with sound game management.
Michigan on the other hand had so many with their heads where the sun never shines we had to put on a ballot that the DNR would use sound game management pratices to manage game. That was close to 10 years ago, bet you won't find to many sportsman in Michigan today that will say they finally got their head from where the sun don't shine includeing me.
I will fully pratiac game management on my property when it comes to youtes and wolves and the SSS method. Those people in Lansing have a hard time figuring out the difference between a turkey and goose so I ain't waiting for them to figure out I haven't seen a deer in a few years cause the wolves and youtes have over ran my land.
I know people in Wisconsin who feel the same as I do. They went a full hunting season with out seeing evgen a deer track let alone a deer. Lots of wolves though so bold they are in the yards molesting their animals.
I agree with the breeding pair in Central park but will add they should also turn a breeding pair in the Washington mall and every city park of every major city like Detroit, LA, Boston and the rest. Tree huggers should really get to know the wild life out side the ZOO's bars first hand.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Al
 
WELCOME TO WYOMING NOW TAKE A WOLF AND GO HOME.
those of you who want wolves should have lobbied to have them in YOUR STATE.
we made a agreement on a experimental population and have done everything we agreed to at the start of this mess and the feds have reneged on their side in all aspects.
the experiment has failed get all wolves out of my state.
wolves are not endangered they are a wrongfully placed governmental control on these states.
shoot them all and the jerks who came up with the idea
 
Well, its started again.

Conservation groups want all of Wyoming to be 'trophy zone' with a season.

Ranchers tell everyone ' make up your mind, do you want wolves and ranchers or do you want wolves'

Everyone is waiting BO's administration to make an assessment.

Conservation groups who sued last year are prepared to sue again -- until wolves are forever protected.

Lets see,,,,, The people of Wyoming have no rights in this matter(as percieved by the conservation groups)

Politics are back in the forefront of the decision.

And $$$ minded conservation groups are going to sue again and again until they get what they want - One hundred percent wolf dispersal, fully protected state wide, then, its all the neighboring states until their donations dry up.

Aaaaahhhh, some things never change and OUR opinion is not recognized as sound thinking. Lets all sing the socialist national anthem here..

Last thought(for today).. IF forced(and we would have to be forced) into trophy status state wide and set a season? Lets follow the badger rule - season opens Jan. 01 and ends Dec. 31 with no limit. You need a license though. Do you think our 'conservation minded' folks would buy into that?

Cold day in He!! people. Stay the course. There are to many people telling you how to live your life already.
 
Hey Cas,
I am not even sure this post deserves a response. But since I am a thick headed police officer from "back east," I am going to respond anyway.

You want to compare wolves to Al Quaeda? Yeah, I'll say that's a little over the top. I don't believe anyone on this thread indicated that wolves should not be hunted legally. The fact is they should be managed and hunted legally, or killed when they are threatening humans or damaging property same as the bears here in NJ. They should not be poached or killed illegally, just like any other animal.

So the suits and uniforms here in NJ are the wolves, are they? Without the suits and uniforms here the REAL wolves would take over. You know, the kind that Jim in Iowa mentioned. But you say you retired as a police officer, so you should know this already, right?

Hey 4949 . . .

I don't care if you respond or not ... but you may re-read the Al Quaeda quote ... I said: "An extreme example, yes... but there is a point there" -- and there IS.

Guess what pal .... unless you're in Alaska or Canada, Wolves CANNOT be hunted legally. They are FORCED upon us...killing OUR game and OUR live stock, and its a States Rights issue Anyway.

Have you ever even SEEN a Wolf in the wild??

And YES, the suits and uniforms in Peoples Republik of New Jersey are wolves... you among them? Its the most anti-gun state in the union. When NJ police officers arrest OTHER police officers from out of state for carrying (THE DREADED!!!) hollow point ammo in their semi-auto handguns...that is Plain SICK! New Jersey doesn't have the Faintest concept of the Constitution when it comes to firearms and related, and their judges and prosecutors make their Own laws and rules. When a governor of the state of New Jersey makes the public statement "those who choose to own a firearm in New Jersey does so at their own peril", THAT is plain Sick, and there was a remedy for such maggots back in 1775.

Cas in the High Desert.
 
Quote:


Hey 4949 . . .

I don't care if you respond or not ... but you may re-read the Al Quaeda quote ... I said: "An extreme example, yes... but there is a point there" -- and there IS.

Guess what pal .... unless you're in Alaska or Canada, Wolves CANNOT be hunted legally. They are FORCED upon us...killing OUR game and OUR live stock, and its a States Rights issue Anyway.

Have you ever even SEEN a Wolf in the wild??

And YES, the suits and uniforms in Peoples Republik of New Jersey are wolves... you among them? Its the most anti-gun state in the union. When NJ police officers arrest OTHER police officers from out of state for carrying (THE DREADED!!!) hollow point ammo in their semi-auto handguns...that is Plain SICK! New Jersey doesn't have the Faintest concept of the Constitution when it comes to firearms and related, and their judges and prosecutors make their Own laws and rules. When a governor of the state of New Jersey makes the public statement "those who choose to own a firearm in New Jersey does so at their own peril", THAT is plain Sick, and there was a remedy for such maggots back in 1775.

Cas in the High Desert.



Hello Cas,

Obviously you DO care if I respond, or you wouldn't have answered back.

You act like hunters from the east forced the wolves down your throat. It wasn't us eastern hunters though. We are conservatives just like the rest of the country's hunters. You can blame the liberal dems for your wolf troubles. Though I do agree wolf hunting should be a state issue and not a federal one.

To answer your question...no, I haven't seen a wolf in the wild. I sure would like to though. Especially equipped with my 7mm mag rifle and a wolf tag to make it all legal. A wolf mount sure would look nice in my den.

Your talk about NJ police officers being "wolves" is as far fetched as your Al Quaeda analogy. Did you ever have any practical experience in police work in NJ? If you did you sure didn't have much if you left the state while you were in your twenties. And if you didn't, then I guess we won't be able to compare war stories and job experience. Your allegations concerning NJ LEO's and hollowpoint ammo is also far fetched. You are gravely mistaken, my friend. LEOSA doesn't cover hollowpoints. But no one gets bothered by the street cops. Your beef should be with the politicians and the libs, not the street cop.

There are plenty of hunters and gun owners here in NJ who don't like the laws. But we have to deal with them because this is where we live for now. Luckily in 5 years I can retire with full benefits and move to a western state. That's the nice thing about a pension. And the weather in Arizona will be so much better than here.

You certainly do have a chip on your shoulder, Cas.

 
Last edited:
This is a very good post,which has stimulated a lot of conversation.I hope we can agree that no one really wants the Canadian Wolves erradicated, cause then we would never have a chance to hunt them. What we want ( I hope ) is to have their numbers controlled just like any other big game animal.

I didnt want them here in Idaho and voiced my opinion very strongly,but I was over ruled, so I guess ill have to live with them.

While this Post has elicited a great response and some very good and valid points, I have to differ with giving the Feds all the blame. The Feds are a bunch of political whores who cater to animal rights groups for their votes and money. The same groups that continually sue to keep all animals listed. And they are very good at suing, they will sue at the drop of a hat, cause its cheaper to sue, in most cases, than to defend.

What do we do? We contact our elected representatives, and hope that they will help, and try to work within the system.

In my opinion, we need an organization that will have the funds, and the best lawyers we can find,whose sole function is to sue the Animal rights groups, and the so called environmental groups causing these problems. They need to be held accountable for the damage they do.

Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming have suffered devastating losses of big game animals, and revenue, because of these groups. They should be made to pay for their actions. You wont get anywhere suing the feds, but if you start suing these groups in court, with environmental impact statements, and data collected by state fish and game biologists as proof of the damage they caused, I believe you could recover actual costs and punative damages.

This is the only way we are going to stop, or slow these people down.Make them spend their resources defending their actions, and hopefully bankrupt them. There are a lot of judges that are on our side, and we need to sue in their courts. In short, we need to use the antis tactics against them.

I dont know how you start an organization such as this, but im sure there are some people on this forum that have the talent to find the way to do it.

Any way, thanks for letting me rant.
 
IVC That is the answer to the problem!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

If the so called Conservationists want it there way - they should pay the consequences of their actions, pure and simple. Cougars killing people in California because of lack of fear due to protections? consequences. Lost/injured livestock? Consequences. Public safety as in children being chewed by a coyote? Consequences. So often the answer is 'Well, thats what they(carnivores) do!' Certainly makes our lives and life style a cheap commodity with no recourse doesn't it; when we know the carnivore can be educated to fear man. There is no middle ground on this issue as it stands today, no accountability for the instigators, supporters and politicians; just the impact to those injured. No opology, no 'feeling your pain', just perpetual stone walling.
 
Last edited:
Quote:
This is a very good post,which has stimulated a lot of conversation.I hope we can agree that no one really wants the Canadian Wolves erradicated, cause then we would never have a chance to hunt them. What we want ( I hope ) is to have their numbers controlled just like any other big game animal.

I didnt want them here in Idaho and voiced my opinion very strongly,but I was over ruled, so I guess ill have to live with them.

While this Post has elicited a great response and some very good and valid points, I have to differ with giving the Feds all the blame. The Feds are a bunch of political whores who cater to animal rights groups for their votes and money. The same groups that continually sue to keep all animals listed. And they are very good at suing, they will sue at the drop of a hat, cause its cheaper to sue, in most cases, than to defend.

What do we do? We contact our elected representatives, and hope that they will help, and try to work within the system.

In my opinion, we need an organization that will have the funds, and the best lawyers we can find,whose sole function is to sue the Animal rights groups, and the so called environmental groups causing these problems. They need to be held accountable for the damage they do.

Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming have suffered devastating losses of big game animals, and revenue, because of these groups. They should be made to pay for their actions. You wont get anywhere suing the feds, but if you start suing these groups in court, with environmental impact statements, and data collected by state fish and game biologists as proof of the damage they caused, I believe you could recover actual costs and punative damages.

This is the only way we are going to stop, or slow these people down.Make them spend their resources defending their actions, and hopefully bankrupt them. There are a lot of judges that are on our side, and we need to sue in their courts. In short, we need to use the antis tactics against them.

I dont know how you start an organization such as this, but im sure there are some people on this forum that have the talent to find the way to do it.

Any way, thanks for letting me rant.



I think we could start a new 'Cold War' here. I wonder if the NRA would be interested? You have a good point and also a good way to deal with problems we all face.
 
if Wyoming had the predator zone to contain wolves in the trophy area south Dakota wouldn't be dealing with this at all.
we do not want state wide wolves
 
Just an observation:

I find it interesting that domesticated dogs have to be kept inside a fence or on a leash and wolves (essentially wild dogs) are allowed to roam free.

Kinda ironic, no?

Again, just an observation.

Landrum
 
Hello Cas,

Obviously you DO care if I respond, or you wouldn't have answered back.

You act like hunters from the east forced the wolves down your throat. It wasn't us eastern hunters though. We are conservatives just like the rest of the country's hunters. You can blame the liberal dems for your wolf troubles. Though I do agree wolf hunting should be a state issue and not a federal one.

To answer your question...no, I haven't seen a wolf in the wild. I sure would like to though. Especially equipped with my 7mm mag rifle and a wolf tag to make it all legal. A wolf mount sure would look nice in my den.

Your talk about NJ police officers being "wolves" is as far fetched as your Al Quaeda analogy. Did you ever have any practical experience in police work in NJ? If you did you sure didn't have much if you left the state while you were in your twenties. And if you didn't, then I guess we won't be able to compare war stories and job experience. Your allegations concerning NJ LEO's and hollowpoint ammo is also far fetched. You are gravely mistaken, my friend. LEOSA doesn't cover hollowpoints. But no one gets bothered by the street cops. Your beef should be with the politicians and the libs, not the street cop.

There are plenty of hunters and gun owners here in NJ who don't like the laws. But we have to deal with them because this is where we live for now. Luckily in 5 years I can retire with full benefits and move to a western state. That's the nice thing about a pension. And the weather in Arizona will be so much better than here.

You certainly do have a chip on your shoulder, Cas.

*******************

Hey 49 . . .

First you opine that my post didn't deserve a response, then you respond to it. And I said I didn't care if YOU responded...if others care to respond, thats fine too.

I NEVER SAID NOR BLAMED You, nor eastern hunters for our Wolf problems....and its not only the eastern tree hugger/facists alone that has caused this ...look at California. And the wolf issue IS a State Issue...read the 10th Amendment. I made a stretched parallel to Al Quida...and in that same vein, this IS terrorism, these killing wolves forced down our throat and the horrible damage that they do.

I don't have practical experience Working as a street cop in NJ; I got OUTTA there! ... I was in the midwest on the street, but I still have family and friends in NJ. I have a MAJOR problem with NJ police and the philosophy that NJ runs by....and Everything I said is True, and NONE of it "far fetched". If you've been on the bricks many years than you probably don't feel it. One of my closest friends some years ago, [an Episcopal Priest for God's sake (!)] had his door kicked in, rousted out of bed, was beaten to a pulp, stomped, cursed, ridiculed, required hospital treatment and his family [wife and children] all handcuffed and terrorized by a New Jersey State Police "swat team" over an alleged "paper violation" -- The "NJSP swat team" raiders, (black BDU's and no name tags, of course) with MP5 submachineguns, screaming and cursing "Hey, we got us another F---ing gun nut" (the priest was a reloader); even the Local cops were incredulous and couldn't believe it. YES, this happened in the United States of America, not Moscow or Beijing. THAT is the mindset of NJ on guns. The judge in the end finally told the prosecutor to kiss off that enough is enough already. My beef IS w/ the NJ politicians and any cop that plays their tune.

War stories and such is all fine, especially the good belly busting laugh ones, including the numerous "choir practices" after work after swing shift.

Its Supposed to be tough to be a street cop in our country ...its Easy to be a cop in places like Russia.

I don't know if this will play for you ... but paste it and see this little vid of a Russian Cop ... and how its done there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zAcxAXPLZY&feature=related

Must be a training video for NJSP.


THAT is what our country is coming to with the militarization of police here [NJ is the poster-boy example] ...faces covered...no name tags, etc. (Note that the Nazi Gestapo never covered their faces... what are these cops afraid of)??

If it happens ONCE -- its once too often.

I don't know how old you are, but when I was a kid in NJ a parent could say to a young child "see that policeman over on the corner? ... if anything ever happens or you get scared, hes' your friend; go to him".

You can't say that now. Now its the "us vs. them" syndrome with cops. THAT is a terrible and powerful thing. Cops wind up in a psychological situation where their only real friends are Other Cops. I'm sure you've seen that, or are In that situation.

You say: "Plenty of hunters and gun owners in PRNJ who don't like the laws"? -- Yes, I Know that's true.

The Problem is THOSE LAWS; that's all I'm saying, and don't take it personally. I couldn't See you taking it personally UNLESS you were part of "them". If you feel like we do then I don't blame you for straining at the bit to head for Arizona; you'll be able to sleep in peace there (unless you're close to the Mexican border, but thats another story).

I LOVE good cops -- I was Proudly one of them, and that oath I took when I pinned on my tin is Just as applicable to me now as it was then.

No I DON'T have a chip in my shoulder, 49 ... I am educated, I've been around the block a few times, I'm very much an historian, and I SEE what is happening around me in MY Country. Apparently You (maybe?) can live in that cesspool police state and not have it bother you, or at least not very much; and you being a street cop, its not as "personal" to your situation as the average citizen. But even though I'm a million miles away from it, in the freest state in the nation, I still See it; its on the news every day. Its like the popular police jargon nowadays...if you're not a cop, you're a "civilian". (Read: "Us vs. Them").

No, Wrong. You're a "citizen"; a high and holy word.

The one man, dear personal friend (as well as his whole family), (you may never have heard of him) who had more of a mentorship and influence upon me in my adult life than anyone else for 30 years, (and I'm alive because of the training I took under him) was Col. Jeff Cooper (now deceased). (Jeff founded the American Pistol Institute and Gunsite Ranch). He once encapsulated to me: "Cas,: "An Armed man is a citizen --- and Unarmed man is a Subject".

In England, (for example) they are "Subjects" ... and the British mindset does not conflict with that, as mine does, and as our's does.

Now, you've attacked me personally since I first put out a wolf post, never offered your name, told me I have a chip on my shoulder because I call a spade a spade, and because I Know Wolves, what they are, and what they do, know how to hunt them and have done so, and am suffering the damage here in Wyoming that every other rancher and hunter is here, as well as Idaho, Montana. etc.

If you were in OUR boots...and seen what I/many of us have seen, maybe, just maybe it would hit a Core and you could identify a bit more with it.

BTW, you're almost over-gunned w/ your 7mm. Mag. ... I've taken all mine with a .17 Remington and it does just fine. If its over 250 or so, grab a .243 Ackley or 6.5/06 Ackley Imp.

Cas in the High Desert.
 
Quote:
What would you do if you stumbled into this scenario?

coyotes20moose2011-1.jpg

coyote20moose1.jpg




Wouldnt do a thing. I call it Mother Nature and the Circle of life /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

But with that said I also think that wolves moving in and completely diminishing game populations need to be controlled
 
Last edited:
I'm in SD, not too far from where that wolf what shot. Its a sad thing the guy didn't get a double.......Like others have said, wolves are NOT supposed to be in this state, and all these Mt. Lions showing up in this side of the state, aren't supposed to be here either. Its funny how our game an fish deny any and all these sightings, till there is a carcus on the ground. The hunter that shot that wolf had to have turned himself in, as there would be no other way of them finding out about a wolf being taken....I can't wait to hear the rest of the story.
 
To the gentleman from Canada that says its healthy for the eco-system to have wolves??Maybe in Canada as you can hunt them their but not much hunting them or keeping numbers in check here in the US..
 
Back
Top