yotes found, help needed

WOW!!!!!

Looks like it came down to "Put up or shut up" time...... :eek:

Seems you boys got a couple invites put forth.

I almost wish I didn't have to go to CA and AZ for 2 weeks, coyote hunting next month, just so I could witness the event. If they would show up.

Rich........ I enjoyed your quip about self proclaimed experts and negative nonsense. I'll assume it was directed at me.

I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I'll be the first to say I suck at calling coyotes in PA. I do pretty good in other states though. The next service trip for Iowa, I'll put in for at work. I'll tote along my calls and stuff, and give it a try if I am near a hunting area. The reason I travel, is to learn from some good callers first hand, and bring those tactics and experiences back to PA and apply them. It's kind of fun too. I have met some real interesting characters in my travels.

Well enough about me. I don't want to hold you and the others up, from responding to the invites put forth. I sure hope you take them up on their offers, and enlighten Pennsylvania with your expertise... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Hodgen,
We have this forum here for the purpose of sharing information about calling critters. Take a look at your very first answer to pitcher--- posted 12-25-2002 07:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't call at them at all.

Why even alert them??????

This is the type of nonsense I am talking about Hodgen. You imply that PA coyotes can not be called, and it would be worse than a waste of time to even try. I like your last post much better sir. At least you now admit that your are not an expert. Now if you don't mind, I think it would be nice if you would try to help this young man learn how to call coyotes.
 
Pitcher 31-sounds like you have a good opportunity to get some good experience calling and will more than likely get some good results if you go out and TRY. They don't send the coyotes in PA or any other state to MIT, Harvard, or Stanford or anywhere else. They can be had if you read the posts from Rich, GC, and Jimmy In KY. Read them and then read them again. These are positive posts based on a Sh$&load of experience! If you think it can't be done then you're done before you even get started. Those yotes aren't gonna run up to that barn carrying a white flag! What's the worse thing that can happen? So you mess up-so what, at least you'll have learned something even from a screw-up. If you don't go out and try calling them you won't learn anything either will you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Just do it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Wow,

You guys sure do get your panties in bunch right quick. There is no need to be so formal Mr. Cronk, you don't have to address me a sir.

I am well aware this is a "calling" forum.
And I did not imply that a coyote can't be called.

If I were even to attempt calling them, I would still sit in one of the out buildings, and perhaps use a kitten in distress played softly.
Click to expand...
The "coyote hunting 101" tactics are not productive. This guy would be much better off concentrating on "social behavior" but thats a little more of an advanced tactic.
Click to expand...
What I am implying, is in this situation, those coyotes are stacking up for an easy meal. That is the biggest problem callers in urban areas face here in PA. These coyotes have adapted phenomenally. It's not the same situation as out west. Thats why your ADC men set steel instead of calling in those situation. They know calling isn't going to be productive with an easy food sourse.

Alot of these PA guys read these boards looking for any information they can grasp. They go out and apply it, and it doesn't work. I took it one step farther and traveled to the areas of the good callers to see what the differences were. I learned what I could sitting right next to these guys in the field. I got to see some pretty advanced techniques by doing this, and have had some results applying them here.

You have just about every PA caller telling you that "coyote 101" isn't working. Perhaps you should skip this course and take it to the next level and get into social behavior and breeding techniques. If nothing else, it should stimulate your curiosity as to why no one is having reliable success with your advise. That in itself would drive me nuts.

I think you should take these guys up on their offer to take you on a hunt here. Hell, there is some good money to be made if ya feel like doing one of those contests. Either way, you could put this whole issue to bed once and for all.

It sure would beat sitting there, getting your panties in a bunch, when someone disagrees with you.
 
What we disagree with is negative attitudes.With some of the competition here locally I would have already quit with such an attitude.I have known quite a few that did quit.Without learning the 101 a begginer is going to be lost when he try's the more advanced tactics and sounds.They also need to have more ground in an area besides the one farm.They need to have at least an idea of where the animal is coming from and why he's there.

With dispersal well underway and territories being marked off. It is just now time to get into those more advaced sounds such as howls and canine territorial sounds.The bunny blues still works on the transient animals because they are in strange areas new to them. But with dogs in established territories the fox distress, fox fight, pup distress will be the hot ticket. Challenge howls will begin to heat up the dominant males now. But all of this is worthless without knowing where and how to set up.That's where walking the ground and looking things over comes in. Find those areas they are traveling in and look for the best places you can find for setup.Jimmie
 
pitcher31,please keep us updated on your challenge to bag one of these coyotes.No matter which way you decide is the best way for you.(calling or waiting silent in ambush).Please do not take my post or Hodgens and PATrackers post as discouragement from calling.Like i said,they can be called.Just with a very little percentage rate vs. the number of stands put in.I know i will continue to call for them,but i also know the success rate will continue to be very low.What you have is a golden opportunity to bag a PA yote,if they are visiting the area like you say.The advice that is being given to you by the PA callers is coming from "experience in hunting the PA coyote".I know after calling for these crafty critters for the last 4 years,i would take Hodgens advice if you want to bag one of these coyotes.What is it going to hurt,if you wait them out in a building and bag one,and then go out and learn how to call for them.Granted,it is not the same as calling one in,but i would bet my house you will be kicking yourself in the a$$ a few years down the road if you try calling these coyotes for the first time and end up educating them,and never see them again.You will have wished you waited in ambush.Understand what im trying to tell ya? Good luck and please keep us updated.

Jimmie in KY and Rich,i will ask you again.Have either of you ever hunted in PA for the coyote? If yes,how many have you killed.Again,just curious.Also ,i don't want to hear that there the same as hunting them any where else in the USA,because there not!

Wishbone,i have been reading Jimmie's, Rich's,and GC's posts for a long time.Yes,they are very knowledgable and give good advice.But again,7/8ths of this stuff does not work in PA.So please do not lead pitcher on as to think all he has to do is read up on hear for a couple of months and he will have success,sorry it doesn't work this way around hear.I wish it did ,but it does not.I know im beating a dead horse about right now,so until some of you guys come to PA and experience it first hand,you will not beleive.Simple as that!

*Pacoyotenut*
 
I beleive a coyote is a coyote and no matter what state they are hunted in you are going to use the same calling tatics, now your calling sounds will differ due to the different animals and habit. Here in Pa you are dealing with very hilly country with tons of cover, being able to see the coyotes coming from more than 300 yards is almost unheard of. Also the Coyotes territorial range here in Pa are absolutely huge, there are not enough coyotes in this state, therefore they have no reason to start to narrow their territory down due to lack of competition of other yotes. So therefore its going to take a lot more work on the scouting part, which makes it hard, because here in Pa a coyote may have a territorial range of easily 25 square miles or more, this is a big problem due to all the posted land from land owners thanks to all the unethical hunters that ruin everything for everyone else.
 
Hodgen,
You are starting to get the picture alright, and I can tell that you are a frustrated coyote caller. I have never been to PA and the chances of me ever going there is almost zero. I have never said that I am an expert caller. I am a call maker with some calling experience, no more, no less. Those who know me well, also know that I hardly ever use a rabbit call for coyotes anymore. Even most of my friends don't believe that my coyotes are called with nothing but a howler these days. My howler is tuned to also reproduce some very loud puppy squeals, so I do still use prey distress screams on a coyote stand. Anyone who wants to ask, I will tell them my exact calling sequence too. No big secrets with this old man sir. Oh and by the way Hodgen, I ain't all that angry with you as of yet. Not to worry sir, you will be one of the first to know it if my stack blows. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Jimmie in KY,

Where you get "negative attitudes" from, is beyond me. I re-read the whole thread, and all I see is guys saying that it's all good basic advice, it just doesn't work well in their area. I would think these guys doing 100+ stands in a fur season, to produce one or two coyotes, are pretty much die-hard callers. If that doesn't drive a man to quit, they got the calling bug bad.

I never called critters in KY. The closest I got was calling in Batavia Ohio near Cincinnati. Basically flat farm country with hedgerows and woodlots. All I did was drive around on back roads, pull off and call, and I had a few coyotes step out and take a peek at me. I always tote my calls along on work trips so I have something to do in the evenings. This particuler trip I wasn't able to hunt. But even as close as Ohio, the coyotes react different than what we have in the north east part of our state.

Why they are so hard to call here using conventional techniques is beyond me. I have no problem anywhere else I call, just PA and NY seem unique. Other than using "social behavior" tactics in combination with scents and lures, you're pretty much sucking wind.

I don't even want to go into dispersal and pack behavior we see exhibited around here. If this discussion has got tempers on edge at this point. That discussion would cause cardiac arrest for sure.

Take a trip up and hunt with the boys. The offer seems to be on the table.
 
Rich,

I did not get into this discussion this deep to fire you boys up. I am trying to communicate what these guys face here in PA when it comes to calling coyotes. There is a big void between understandings both east and west.

I am far from being a frustrated coyote caller. In fact, I feel I am probably one of the most fortunate guys in PA. I atleast have the means and oppurtunity to travel to different areas of the country and kill coyotes. There is nothing better than about 6 coyotes responding to a call, and things getting so befuddled, you don't know which one to shoot. I also get to make some great buddies along the way.

The only frustration I have, is I have been on both sides of the fence with this issue. I know what these guys are experiencing, and also have experienced different areas to compare.

I am in 100% agreement with you about howlers. It's probably the best tactic in the box right now. I am glad your willing to tell these guys more about it. Perhaps you could even attach a wave file to this thread. That would help these guys tons.
 
Maybe the yotes did go to MIT in PA! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Unreal!
 
Wishbone,lets set the record straight.All PA coyotes are required to attend either Penn State or Pittsburgh Universities,for a minimum of 4 years.Majoring in Human Predator Biology.MIT is not an option for them.-LOL.
 
One of the things which got me interested in predator hunting is you have to think like one. I would say if you are going to call, use a teritorial(SP?)call. Think about it, if a yote has a full belly, he isn't going to respond to a distress call. If he has a steady suply of food, he isn't going to exert any energy to go after a kill. Remember, this is one of the smartest predators. This is the way I would take Hodgen's responce. As for the pa yote being different, I would say yes. I spend some time on some other boards and am extremly jealous(SP?)of how easy it seems to be outside of our state(PA). I can not imagine walking out to a stand or two and being sucessful /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hell, I would settle just for one a season. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Anyway, the important thing is to get out and enjoy the hunt and share the stories afterwards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Damn boys, I leave for just a little while and you tear the house down! I'm kidding of course. I don't think anybody really is too upset, just trying to express different ideas or opinions.

With that said, I'm certainly not an expert, and I'm all ears (or eyes as the case seems to be). School me, tell me please what the advanced tactics that you PA guys are using to call these PhD dogs. I can easily stand to learn a new trick or two to help fool some of these simple minded Missouri coyotes. Ever once in awhile a coyote or two tries my patience and I have to do something other than the basic stuff to drag them in for a look see. Especially later in the winter months of February and March. I'm curious what it is that you may do and if I could apply that tactice here and be helpful for me in my situation. Please share so the rest of us may benefit from your experience. We probably could spice up the BIG THREAD of "CALLING TACTICS, ect..." with some more advanced techniques. That'd surely be helpful to many other folks too. What do ya say, share with us?

(NOTE: This is a non-combative post and not a challenge. Nor am I trying to be a smart ass. This is a sincere request for new information that should prove helpful to many who come to PM to learn and compare tactics.)
 
Wow, What a thread!

Last Fall we took a coyote out here in CA that was carrying a diploma from Penn State. No, didn't act much different than any of our local educated dogs, but was a mite bit bigger than most.

I think most of the ideas here are justified based on the experience of each individual (or maybe lack of experience). But that is what this thread is about, learning.

Just because something works well in one area it may not work so well or at all in another. This also applies to calling in an area that has been traditionally good, even out here in the west. Things are not always the same and yotes that did respond today may not have responded yesterday.

Hunger is NOT the only reason coyotes respond to your calls. I have had coyotes come in with a rabbit hanging in their chops. They are opportunistic hunters/scavengers.

Even the best of callers must claim a bunch of educated dogs before they acquired the success they now enjoy. An expert, I am not. An expereinced and accomplished caller, yes. Hodgdon has been out west and hunted cats and dogs with us. He does know how to call and set up stands successfully. The tactics we use here he has tried in PA with very limited success.

When we start having little or no success we start inovating other options/techniques. Some work and some don't. My partnier and I were recently working an area that was traditionally pi$$ poor yet we knew animals were there. We tried different techinques each time we called in that area and finally found a trick that worked. And it continues to work there, but the same setup elsewhere is not producing. Why? Maybe because of hunting pressure? We have no conclusive evidence of this because we have seen very little sign of other hunting acitivity in the area.

I guess what I am trying to get across, if your method doesn't produce be creative and continue to change until something clicks.

Maybe coyotes are tired of chasing rabbits and will be content to take out a piglet or kitten. I know kitten mews get them comming around the fringe areas of populated areas that have coyote problems out our way. You would be surprised to know how many pets disappear every day around the Los Angeles metro area.

Have a Safe Hunting Day.

RayG
 
I know lots of "callers" in my area and none has ever called in a coyote with anything other than a Howler.You can play tapes,digitals,hand calls till your blue in the face and around these parts you will probably never call one in using prey animals sounds.Everyone can't be that bad at it or unlucky.
The only coyotes "I" know of called to gun was with a coyote howler call.Now I'm not saying it can't be done but I am saying it's just tuff to do.I have a buddy who has called in and taken several coyotes with a howler but never with any other call.He travels to different states west of the Mighty Miss and tells me that them coyotes "are just plain stupid" now don't flame me I'm just repeating one mans opinion I have no experiance at calling any place but here in WV and Pa.
I live about 5 miles as the crow flys from Pa. I hunt both WV and Pa. and these coyotes are beyond tuff to call not impossible but tuff.I have yet to call one in yet,I can call foxes,crows,hawks and even them big old owls but no coyotes YET!!!
But I'm going to keep trying and maybe with a little bit of luck I'll get one.I got a new coyote howler and will try it as the only guys I know to call any in used howlers.just my .02
 
Yotes,
I have been thinking about something you said in your above post. Coyotes in your area have territory of 25 square miles? If this is the case, it could explain at least PART of the reason that calling isn't working well in PA. In wide open country, we think that a coyote can hear an average predator call for maybe one mile. Back in the hills and brush, that distance would be a whole bunch shorter. Maybe the coyotes are just not within hearing distance when you call. With a home territory as large as 25 square miles, this could happen quite frequently. One of the biggest reasons that callers out west have better luck calling coyotes is because there are more coyotes to call. Simple math. I know that this doesn't cover all of the PA calling problem, but it seems like a good place to start.
 
Hi Ray,
Glad you stopped by to say hello... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I am really looking forward to our upcoming hunt.
Keep the RAY-gun handy, the airlines seem to be getting squirrely again. I guess they got some new regs coming in effect Jan 1. I am going to try and bring along my steriod enhanced pellet gun.

I am glad to see it looks like we are bridging the east/west void. Atleast GC seems to be curious about some tactics we use. I will keep this in this forum, because alot of the eastern guys socialize here.

After years and years of trying prey distress sounds here, there was extremely little success. I tried every sound I could get my hands on. Everything from chicken distress to buffalo farts.
Up-wind, down wind, cross wind, up-hill, down hill, elevated, tossing a second shooter 100yds down wind, pretty much everything in coyote hunting 101. This was not a feeble attempt either. This was easily over 100 stands a season.

So I figured I would pattern them. It wasn't to difficult because snow makes it easy. When I did set-up in front of them, I discovered something interesting. They were very deliberate in their movements. They were going from point A to point B, and that was it. I would see them crossing a field 200yds out, I would blow a distress at them, and they wouldn't even turn their heads to look. No response at all. They just kept going without blinking an eye. They had a destination and nothing was going to detour them. But this did knock them off their travel route.

That year I had a chance to go down and hunt with a guy in AZ. I had hunted with him before, so I knew the place was loaded with coyotes. He called before I left and told me I may want to consider cancelling, because the coyotes disappeared. They had a nasty dose of Parvo-Virus run through their domestic dog population, and suspected that it spilled over into the coyotes. This pretty much desimated the coyotes that year.

Hunting was extremely tough. The norm is about 6-10 coyote responses a day. This was the third day and we didn't call squat. He said "OK...Time to change up tactics". He grabbed up a few hand calls and off we went. He blew the first series, and I thought he went off the deep end. I never read or seen anything like this. There was a combination of howls, barks, yips, challenges, Kei Yees, and squealing rabbit. But sure enough, the coyotes came. This was my first exposure to social behavior calling.

I came back to PA and gave this a try. Sure enough I got some responses. They were stepping out to see what all the commotion was about. It's not an easy thing to do for me. I still have to juggle 3 calls to try and imitate this pack frenzy. So basically the guy calling doen't often get the shot, so it's a team effort.

Howling has brought some responses also. I still need to define more of what works best. But as of now, a single lone howl and going silent, seems to work best. If a coyote howls back, I reply with one challenge. If the coyote challenges, I don't reply at all. Then I just sit back and wait.

Less is more???????

Last year I corresponded with a guy on the message boards from Australia. He sent me over a call (Aussie Fox Whistle). This sounds almost like a puppy whine. But it does seem to stop a coyote in it's tracks, when it's on their deliberate journey.

Now I know this sounds like alot of calling, and it is. But the airport here in Allentown bought up most of the farmland around here. There is no hunting. They have a few packs of these big, lanky looking, unharrassed coyotes residing there. But I travel through this area every day to work. It's great for testing calls year round. You get to see the effects because you know the coyotes are there, and they CAN hear your calls.

But even all these tactics, are only producing about 5 coyote responses in a calling season, in huntable pressured areas.But thats about 4 more than coyote 101.

Last night was the first night this year I had time to get out to hunt here in PA. Work has been insane this year and between overtime and traveling, hunting locally has taken a back seat. We did a few stands, and all I got was a wet butt from sitting in the snow.
 
OK,
let us return to Pitcher's original problem. He has a farm to hunt, and the farmer is hearing coyotes every night. We know from that statement that there are some coyotes present there, or at least they are there sometime during the night.

Pitcher,
Can you tell us a little bit about the farm? How large is the farm? Is this mostly open pasture, or is it pretty much brush choked? Are we talking about long flat ridgetops with narrow valleys in between? Hey Pitcher, please don't give up on us yet. We are gonna help you kill some of those PA coyotes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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