17 HMR on coyotes

Here is what can happen when using too little gun on coyotes...This coyote was shot right where it should have been hit. Though the boiler room...

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The coyote was not found until the hunter saw buzzards in the area about a week later.

It so happens that the coyote was shot with a .17 HMR.
The hunter also conceeds that he will next time use a .223.

There are people out there that defend and use the HMR while hunting coyotes, & it will kill them. It will also result in scenes like this all too often.

I respect the freedom of choice we all enjoy when choosing the caliber we hunt with. I know I don't like it when I have limits put on my personal preferences, for sure.

My question is this:
Why would you hunt coyotes with any rimfire caliber when there are so many calibers that are way better suited to use on them?

I realize this debate will go on & on....

Experience will put more HMR's in the closet for coyote hunting than anything else...(Whether or not it will be admitted is another thing.)
But, there are always those that hear that the .17 HMR, or any other rimfire is a great coyote gun, & will go buy one, shoot 1 or 2 with it, then come here & other places & post what a wonderful killer it is....thus prompting a new spawn of people to go buy one.
Then eventually, they will tire themselves of looking for coyotes they know they hit solid, (like the one in the picture) & put it in the closet, or use it for ground squirrels & jack rabbits, as it was intended....

As I said, this won't ever end, but perhaps this picture will keep someone from being lead down that path.

Barry
 
Where I hunt, in Nova Scotia, a .243 in the minimum caliber allowed for hunting deer. So here, with much larger deer than say Texas, you need a bigger rifle to get the job done.

Same thing with Yotes ... they average 40 lbs or so and 50 lbs to 60 lbs are not that uncommon, so in the winter with a heavy coat, the .17 is not near enough to get the job done.

Utahheadgear, I don't know where you came up with your formula, but it has little to do with penetrating power which is required for a clean, quick kill. ft lbs of energy measured against the caliber of the bullet would be a more meaningful indication. Using this, the .243 easily wins.
 
You'll have a higher percentage of losses with an HMR compared to a 300 mag. Of course i don't use either one on coyotes.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
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Ive seen wounded yotes lost with a 300 win mag,explain how the lost yote with a 17 hmr has any relevence?



I tell you what,take 200 coyotes and shoot half with a 17hmr and half with your .300 mag and tell me which one has more runners and then get back to me with the results. I know this will never happen because it will show the whole in your theory.

Chupa
 
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Who here would shoot a 225 pound whitetail at 200 yards with a .243 and 100 grain bullet?? Probably everyone, that would be considered a slam dunk, not even close to marginal





This is really not a good example IMO. It certainly is not a slam dunk in my book with those numbers...That would be a big azzed whitetail..a .30 cal at 200yds would be more of a slam dunk...How about you replace that 225 with a more realistic average whitetail at 130-150lbs and let us know how the ratio turns out. I have hunted whitetail a long time and have only seen three of them in my life honestly over 220lbs.

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Ive seen wounded yotes lost with a 300 win mag,explain how the lost yote with a 17 hmr has any relevence?


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I tell you what,take 200 coyotes and shoot half with a 17hmr and half with your .300 mag and tell me which one has more runners and then get back to me with the results. I know this will never happen because it will show the whole in your theory.





Chupa's right.. I agree, totally irrelevant with the 300win mag runners!!
 
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Well if you can't beat'em, might as well join'em. In response to the original question. The .17HMR should be good to about 400 yards "all day long" but if you round up 5-6 of your buddies and can give wiley the Ol'firing sqaud you could probably stretch out to 700 yards"if you do your part" of course. Personally I can't see how you would NOT choose this round as it is known as the got to "DRT" cartridge.

Hope this helps

Chupa
 
I personally don't mind if other people use the HMR on yotes. The more they loose, the quicker they go home, leaving more for me :)
John
 
I can and will (as soon as I get home where the photos are) post photos of eight coyotes that were all shot with a 17 HMR. None of which took more than a couple of steps. In total I have hit ten coyotes (actually nine, my brother shot the tenth one with me sitting next to him) with an HMR of the two that were not recovered one was hit in the rear leg below the knee while on the run and the other was hit from a distance that is out of the effective range of an HMR(about 175 yards). Both were because of mistakes in judgement on my part and had nothing to do with caliber. The remaining eight were all well hit, and died accordingly. Do what you will with the info, but that is my REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, not my speculative opinion.

What I am trying to say is that all you naysayers have absolutely nothing but speculation to go on when you insert your opinions. Rockinbar's post with the photo of a coyote recovered later is the ONLY example I have ever seen that could prove the unrecovered coyote was well hit. Thanks Rockinbar. The rest have either never shot a coyote with and HMR or you have hit and lost one or maybe more than one, but have no proof as to how well the animal was hit, because it was not recovered.

I have shot ten, recovered eight, and lost two that were because of mistakes on my part, caliber had nothing to do with either of the lost coyotes and I would bet my next paycheck that most (in my experience ALL) unrecovered HMR shot coyotes are because of poor shot selection and/or poor shot placement on the part of the shooter. Of course no one wants to admit or believe that they could have actually made a poor hit at 75 yards or took a shot they should have passed on, so instead they chose to blame the caliber of rife. No one wants to admit they aren't perfect and need improvement. It's always the guns fault, or the scopes fault, or the sun's fault, or the wind's fault. It's BUNK!!

Use whatever caliber you want but don't base your decision on someone's narrow minded opinion that has no solid evidence to back it up. At least get some concrete evidence before you decide. I have tried to give my personal experience, not speculation for the benefit of everyone here on the board.

On a side note: I watched a video last night callde "Coyote Overdose". In the video they shoot probably 25 coyotes with a 22-250, many of which you can see blood pumping from the perfectly placed bullet hole while the coyote makes a 50 yard death run. Based on that video, I would have to say that just because you get a "runner" doesn't mean necessarily that you didn't use enough gun. It's pretty accepted that the 22-250 is plenty of gun for coyotes.

Thanks.
 
I would just like to shed some light on why the OP as well as other MNer's like myself would even ponder the idea of a .17 hmr for yotes and fox.

Our current MN hunting laws restrict us predator hunters to use .22 short, .22 long, or .22 long rifle calibers ONLY during any of our deer firearms seasons and zones. There is a motion currently going on in our state lead by some of our PM memembers to try and legalize the .17 calibers as well as the .22 mag during that time as ithey may be better alternatives to a .22 cal and still keep the hotter rimfire rounds out of the woods until deer season is over. The whole idea behind the law is to minimize deer poaching. Problem is our law makers don't understand that poachers don't read the laws anyway and will use whatever methods they need to. It just restricts the law obiding sportsman on what bullet options he has.

So for those that asked the question, "why would the .17 hmr even be considered?" that's why at least here in MN. I'd rather use that and restrict my ranges than use a .22 short, long or long rifle. The only other option we have at that time is to sit on the couch and watch hunting videos.
 
I'd rather sit at home and watch hunting vidoes than have to go hunting with a 17 HMR.

The 17 is fun on sparrows and starlings though.

Clayman
 
One does not have to go out and lose a lot of coyotes to know that a 17 HMR is not the best or even a good round for coyotes just like one doesn't have to travel to Africa with a .243 to know it's not the round for elephants!

In the past, lots of big game were taken out of necessity with a 22. You could take a grizzly with a 22 with a well placed shot to the eye, but does it sound like a good idea? Sound sporting or humane? Now it's illegal and for good reason.

Just because you can do something (such as kill a yote with a 17 HMR) doesn't mean that you should. And, why would you want to when there are better rounds available.

BBsteel, you should lobby for better regs and not for lesser guns. Not allowing 22s becasuse of what someone might or might not do is stupid. Poachers are criminals and they are going to do what they want regardless of what the law says.
 


Great info BBsteel. I believe there are a number of states that only allow rimfires for coyotes during deer season or variations of that. GREAT reason to use a 17 HMR!

I have a question for all you 17 Haters. Would you hunt deer in a state that only allows shotguns/muzzleloaders during gun season?? Sure you would. You would also have to limit your shot distance and selection based on the weapon you were using. Am I wrong??

Hunting coyotes with a 17 is no different. You can no longer thump the tar out of 'em at 300 yards or more, but if you limit your shot distance and selection based on the weapon in hand you can still be very effective.

The same applies to bowhunting, as long as you accept the limitations of the weapon and commit yourself to stay within them, you can be a very effective (and ethical) hunter with a bow.

Need I go on??
 
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of the two that were not recovered one was hit in the rear leg below the knee while on the run and the other was hit from a distance that is out of the effective range of an HMR(about 175 yards)



How do you know where or if they were hit? You point out that other people can't tell when their coyotes aren't recovered, yet you can. You should share your information with other, less skilled hunters. That way they too can know for a fact where they hit animals at too.


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I can and will (as soon as I get home where the photos are) post photos of eight coyotes that were all shot with a 17 HMR. None of which took more than a couple of steps.



and.........


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In the video they shoot probably 25 coyotes with a 22-250, many of which you can see blood pumping from the perfectly placed bullet hole while the coyote makes a 50 yard death run. Based on that video, I would have to say that just because you get a "runner" doesn't mean necessarily that you didn't use enough gun. It's pretty accepted that the 22-250 is plenty of gun for coyotes.




There you have it you naysayers and 17HMR haters. That right there PROVES that the 17HMR is better than a 22-250. If you use a 17HMR the coyotes always die within a few steps. Use a 22-250 and you'll get a few 50 yard "death runs" while the coyote is pumping blood from a "perfectly placed bullet". Maybe HMR stands for HUMONGOUS MAGNUM RIMFIRE?

Anybody have a 17 HMR they want to trade for a 22-250? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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On a side note: I watched a video last night callde "Coyote Overdose". In the video they shoot probably 25 coyotes with a 22-250, many of which you can see blood pumping from the perfectly placed bullet hole while the coyote makes a 50 yard death run. Based on that video, I would have to say that just because you get a "runner" doesn't mean necessarily that you didn't use enough gun. It's pretty accepted that the 22-250 is plenty of gun for coyotes.

Now which of the calibers is going to at least leave a blood trail that will lead to a dead coyote? Probably not the hmr.

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Hunting coyotes with a 17 is no different. You can no longer thump the tar out of 'em at 300 yards or more, but if you limit your shot distance and selection based on the weapon in hand you can still be very effective.

And here inlays the real problem, even you admit that you lost 20% of your coyotes while using the hmr because even you don't have the ability to know or stay with-in the limitations of your rifle. Loosing 20% of your hit coyotes isn't much to brag about!

And you're right, I haven't shot a single coyote with my hmr, but I've shot a few hundred prairie dogs and that's enough experience to draw my own conclusion that there's certainly a better caliber for coyotes.
 
For use on coyotes, I consider the .17HMR an "experts" gun. Somewhat like using the .410 with bismuth shot on waterfowl. You better know how to shoot well and respect it's limitations, otherwise you are going to not recover a lot of game shot with it.

In the absence of a legal necessity to use a rimfire, it certainly wouldn't be my choice, though. I have a tough time passing on a 200 yard shot, so I use enough gun to make it successfully, if and when presented.
 
Okay here goes:

Weasel,

You can twist my words however you want(and I don't see the value of the sarcasm that you and others often add to these discussions), but I have never said that the 17 is better than any centerfire 22 caliber, in fact I have stated clearly that there are better options. I am stating that the 17 can be effective. The point I was trying to make by mentioning the runners in the video is that many have mentioned having runners as a reason to not use a 17. I was trying to point out the fact that any rifle can and does produce runners depending on the situation and that you cannot say that a caliber is not effective because you get some runners. There is not doubt that runners occur with a 17 although I haven't had any on the coyotes I have shot.

In regards to the lost coyotes. I knew the first was hit in the leg because I could see the broken leg as he ran away. I knew the other was hit because he too was packing a front leg as he left in addition to the fact that he fell to the ground after the shot and I heard the bullet impact. I did not state where he was hit becuase I cannot be sure. I do know the shot distance was too far. I know the coyotes on the video with visible blood were hit where the blood was coming out of thier body. None of these types of indications are ever given by most that have hit and lost a coyote with a 17 they say "I made a perfect hit" I say, how do you know that?? You don't, unless you see visual evidence which often cannot be confirmed unless the animal is recovered. I do not think I perceive things any better than anyone else, but admit as most should, that alot happens faster than the eye can see in hunting situations and perceptions can often be mistaken. That is no ones fault but is simply a fact of life that needs to be considered. Some things can be clearly seen (like a broken leg) and those are the things I have stated.

Lastly, I have never claimed that anything I have stated is definative, but rather is the facts concerning my personal experience to be used by others as they consider the question at hand. I believe this type of information is much better than the sarcastic speculation that is often presented.


Song Dog,

You make a good point about blood trails. I obviously cannot argue with the fact that a larger caliber will leave a better blood trail, but blood trailing is not the issue being discussed. A 50 yard runner where I hunt will die within sight, no blood trail needed. In some places that is definately not the case and a good case could be made for a better blood trail in that situation.

Again, I never said the 17 was "the" caliber, only that it will work and can be ethically used in the situations I have used it in, contrary to what others may think.

As for the lost coyotes and staying within limitations I will simply say that those experiences have caused me to adjust my limitaions with that weapon. I will also say that I am the FIRST to admit that I am not perfect and make poor judgemtent calls and mistakes at times as does everyone. Anyone that claims they don't, or is unwilling to admit it when they do is a liar, plain and simple.
 
Weasel,

Your sarcasm bothers me a little. We are trying to carry on a good discussion about a very contraversial(sp?) subject of which both sides have great and valid points to offer and I think it is uncalled for to be sarcastic, ecspecially from a Moderator. I would think your task would be to monitor and limit the very type of responses that you are adding to the site.

That said, I should have left out the word "naysayers" and "haters" I apologize. I should have put instead, "those against hunting coyotes with a 17 HMR" or something to that effect.

Again, no one is perfect.
 
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......What I am trying to say is that all you naysayers have absolutely nothing but speculation to go on when you insert your opinions.

Use whatever caliber you want but don't base your decision on someone's narrow minded opinion that has no solid evidence to back it up. At least get some concrete evidence before you decide. I have tried to give my personal experience, not speculation for the benefit of everyone here on the board.....




Either you've personally "outed" a lot us as a bunch of ignorant impostors or your paint brush is painting a really wide swath about people you know nothing about just to make your point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And when you're "professionally" tossing the term "17 caliber" around like you did in several posts, please be sure to include "HMR" with it so someone doesn't come along and get confused about you and think you're possibly championing a 17 CF in your vast RF/HMR experience. Why? Because confusing a 17 CF used on coyotes with a 17 HMR is like thinking there's no difference between a race car and a wind-up Cho-Cho train.

17 CF's using good quality, well designed, heavier bullets work extremely well at consistently killing coyotes....a 17 HMR cartridge and its light weight bullets was not designed to kill coyotes any more than was a pellet gun that I saw kill a coyote about 35 years ago, and they both (17 HMR/pellet gun) should be left at home if you're going after coyotes...

Should I claim that as being proof-positive that a pellet gun is a great coyote "caliber"? Or do I need to see 10 coyotes killed with a pellet gun first?

Maybe do the decent thing for the coyotes and go buy a fishing pole if a 17 HMR is your usual choice of "calibers"...

JMO - BCB
 


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