25-06 Ackley advice

Originally Posted By: nortexOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: nortexHow would one even go about measuring from closed bolt face to shoulder start? Maybe chamber cast, but that seems like a lot of extra work.

A chamber case does not measure anything from the bolt face - it only gives you measurements of the chamber from the web forwards.

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That's what I thought, so why even give a measurement of bolt face to shoulder.

Sorry - it was a typo, I was tired.

I meant to say:

A chamber cast does not measure anything from the bolt face - it only gives you measurements of the chamber from the web forwards.

You need gauges to measure from the bolt face to any place in the chamber - notably, the shoulder.
 
Originally Posted By: travjcCatshooter, say hypothetically I had a lathe and had the barrel out of the action, how much approximately would I need as a minimum to set the barrel back in order to be able to follow up with a reamer? I do realize that variations in the existing chamber tolerances make that an impossible dimension to derive, but as an estimate what would be commonplace? I'm not sure of the thread pitch on a ruger M77 barrel, but would like it to index the same as original. So would one full rotation so to speak be enough set back to allow the proper chambering job to be accomplished, I'm thinking it would be more than needed. I have looked on the internet and all I have found is indicating 16 tpi, which should work out to .0625" setback for one exact revolution.

The theoretical minimum is the amount needed to clean up the old neck junction - maybe 1/4th to 1/2 turn - but that leaves the barrel writing under the barrel, in the stock channel - so the next minimum would be one turn (if you want to keep the barrel writing in the same place so the gun looks nice).

But that is under the best circumstances - that the reamer neck is the same size as the existing neck - but that is very rare.

Usually, the "practical" minimum is - you set back enough to cut away the complete old neck.


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Originally Posted By: travjcCurious if anyone out in the mid-west could point me in the direction of a gunsmith to do a set-back and ream on a ruger hawkeye in 25-06 to 25-06 AI. I have checked the locals here, one shop said they could send it off, but I'm just a little leery of that. I would like to deal with the smith first hand if possible.
Thanks in advance,
Travis


To get back to your original question, There is a local guy, (Superior, WI) Eric Mitzner 715-378-2211 who does great work and understands Ackley cartridges.

The first thing he will ask you is, How many rounds has that barrel seen. It will probably need to have the first couple inches of throat lost to the new chamber because of erosion. Is the barrel heavy enough to lose 2-3 inches and still have enough diameter for threading? He also will not fit a barrel to an action that has not been trued. It's a waste of time according to him. Best bet is a new barrel if you're going to go through all the expense. Around $700 - $800.
 
Can't really say how many rounds have been fired through the gun as I bought it used. It didn't appear to have been shot much and I bought it real cheap at a gun shop. I only gave $300 for it. I put a scope on it and at best got it to group about 7 inches. It sat in the safe for about two years and then I pulled it out to figure what was wrong with it. Ended up being a cracked stock at the recoil lug. Put a hogue full bed stock on it and it will group 3 shots about 3/4" average just picking a load and going with it. I have pry put less than 40 rounds through it myself.
 
Originally Posted By: JerrySchmittOriginally Posted By: travjcCurious if anyone out in the mid-west could point me in the direction of a gunsmith to do a set-back and ream on a ruger hawkeye in 25-06 to 25-06 AI. I have checked the locals here, one shop said they could send it off, but I'm just a little leery of that. I would like to deal with the smith first hand if possible.
Thanks in advance,
Travis


To get back to your original question, There is a local guy, (Superior, WI) Eric Mitzner 715-378-2211 who does great work and understands Ackley cartridges.

The first thing he will ask you is, How many rounds has that barrel seen. It will probably need to have the first couple inches of throat lost to the new chamber because of erosion. Is the barrel heavy enough to lose 2-3 inches and still have enough diameter for threading? He also will not fit a barrel to an action that has not been trued. It's a waste of time according to him. Best bet is a new barrel if you're going to go through all the expense. Around $700 - $800.

Ouchie!!

In my way of thinking, it is no longer economically feasible to "true" an action.

You can buy a top of the line, already trued, benchrest quality action for less than you will have in a "trued" Rem 700. Stiller has a beautiful, all stainless, 700 spec dropin for ~$750... WITH a pinned recoil lug!

By the time you get a 700 (or whatever) trued, you are in to the action for more than that, and you will NEVER get it back when you sell it as a "trued" action - you'll get what the action is worth, and nothing more.

Most Rem 700s will show little or no improvement by truing, except under the most stringent benchrest conditions.

Find a good smith that will do your barrel work without conditions.
 
Maybe the single shot is cheaper. Been looking at getting a predator action for a hunting rifle in either 280AI, 6.5-284 or maybe 7Rem mag just can't decide on which one.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: JerrySchmittOriginally Posted By: travjcCurious if anyone out in the mid-west could point me in the direction of a gunsmith to do a set-back and ream on a ruger hawkeye in 25-06 to 25-06 AI. I have checked the locals here, one shop said they could send it off, but I'm just a little leery of that. I would like to deal with the smith first hand if possible.
Thanks in advance,
Travis


To get back to your original question, There is a local guy, (Superior, WI) Eric Mitzner 715-378-2211 who does great work and understands Ackley cartridges.

The first thing he will ask you is, How many rounds has that barrel seen. It will probably need to have the first couple inches of throat lost to the new chamber because of erosion. Is the barrel heavy enough to lose 2-3 inches and still have enough diameter for threading? He also will not fit a barrel to an action that has not been trued. It's a waste of time according to him. Best bet is a new barrel if you're going to go through all the expense. Around $700 - $800.

Ouchie!!

In my way of thinking, it is no longer economically feasible to "true" an action.

You can buy a top of the line, already trued, benchrest quality action for less than you will have in a "trued" Rem 700. Stiller has a beautiful, all stainless, 700 spec dropin for ~$750... WITH a pinned recoil lug!

By the time you get a 700 (or whatever) trued, you are in to the action for more than that, and you will NEVER get it back when you sell it as a "trued" action - you'll get what the action is worth, and nothing more.

Most Rem 700s will show little or no improvement by truing, except under the most stringent benchrest conditions.

Find a good smith that will do your barrel work without conditions.




You are correct. And, I would never buy a trued action unless I knew the smith that trued it. To me, a trued action is worth less than a stock action. When you consider an action (Remington) goes for around $450 plus the cost of truing I can buy almost any action I want and have a better action to boot. That being said, I have bought a few trued Remington rifles that I had planed to re build anyway.
 
IMO, it's not worth the added input of truing the action when simply building a calling/deer/varmint rifle. If I were to partake in serious benchrest competition I would say differently. I agree, there is such thing as stipulating conditions that are for saftey, or just obvious reasons (such as mandatory set-back for an ackley chamber), and then there are so-called reasons that seem un-necessary. I wouldn't do buisness with someone who told me that they had to do such and such before they would consider taking my job on. It is a consumer driven buisness doing work for the public. Without customers there would be no buisness. I'm sure some drink the kool-aid and then love bragging up thier 1200 dollar rem 700 that shoots marginally better than one right off the self, not I. Besides, nobody in their proper mind would waste a dollar putting money into a Ruger, but that's something few have ever accused me of. The way I see it, $300= rifle, $400=re-barrel, all adds up to a $700 rifle. Not worth it to some but is to me.
 
Ok, opinions time. I have an interarms mark X in .270 and I have the ruger hawkeye in 25-06. Which should I turn into the 25-06 Ackley? Leaving cost aside which theoretically will be better?
 
do what ever one blows your skirt up
but if I was doing the smithing I would talk you into the ruger and put a montana rifel barrel on it .Or just set back the factory tube.
( I would use a -.004/crush head space gage)
 
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Originally Posted By: 204farralso if you put a new tube on it you could rework you action .010 over sized and have one [beeep] of a gun.
Please explain the .010" oversize....
 
when you blue print a gun with a factory tube you can't rework the threds do to making the barrel to loose .
Now if you put a new tube on it you can over size the shaink on new barrel .010 . witch will let you blue print the action corectly and take it as close to bench rest as you can get because you now have .010 to work with .
 
got ya, Part of truing/blue printing an action. Thanks for the clarification.

Beginning to wish I still had access to a lathe and mill. Might have to forgo the new safe and buy a lathe instead!
 
Originally Posted By: travjcIMO, it's not worth the added input of truing the action when simply building a calling/deer/varmint rifle. If I were to partake in serious benchrest competition I would say differently. I agree, there is such thing as stipulating conditions that are for saftey, or just obvious reasons (such as mandatory set-back for an ackley chamber), and then there are so-called reasons that seem un-necessary. I wouldn't do buisness with someone who told me that they had to do such and such before they would consider taking my job on. It is a consumer driven buisness doing work for the public. Without customers there would be no buisness. I'm sure some drink the kool-aid and then love bragging up thier 1200 dollar rem 700 that shoots marginally better than one right off the self, not I. Besides, nobody in their proper mind would waste a dollar putting money into a Ruger, but that's something few have ever accused me of. The way I see it, $300= rifle, $400=re-barrel, all adds up to a $700 rifle. Not worth it to some but is to me.
The reason Eric, and many other Gunsmiths won't rebarrel an action that hasn't been trued is because he doesn't want a rifle with his name on it that won't shoot well. He has enough work doing it right that he can reject jobs that, in his opinion, aren't worth doing. Having a customer come back with a rifle that won't shoot to his expectations is just trouble that a good Smith doesn't need.
 
You can "True" an action, but you cannot "Blue Print" an action.

To true an action, you pick a line (the bolt bore) and then cut the threads, action face, and bolt face to match. To "Blue Print" an action would require building up the surfaces by welding and the re-cutting everything - no one but a gunsmithing "Grasshopper" would be that stupid.

In truing an action, if you have to cut the threads 0.010" like 204 has suggested, then you have started on an action that was so far off that it shouldn't be taken for the job... or you have wrecked the action. So you can toss it in the trash and go buy a new custom action.

The myths continue...
 
Originally Posted By: JerrySchmitt
"The reason Eric, and many other Gunsmiths won't rebarrel an action that hasn't been trued is because he doesn't want a rifle with his name on it that won't shoot well. He has enough work doing it right that he can reject jobs that, in his opinion, aren't worth doing. Having a customer come back with a rifle that won't shoot to his expectations is just trouble that a good Smith doesn't need."


Jerry...

I kinda agree and I kinda don't agree. A decent smith can tell if an action is poor - and even the good companies let a dog slip through from time to time.

The smith simply says that the action is not good enough for him to rebarrel, and gives it back to the customer.

There are very good smiths that are truly 6 months behind in work, and they don't need to create work for themselves.

But most gunsmiths are hurting for work - and truing an action is a very labor intensive job (it's really a betch), so they will make more on the truing the action than they will on fitting the barrel.

For the shooter, they need to decide what level of accuracy they need, and what level of accuracy are they willing to pay for. ("How fast do you want to go? How fast can you afford"
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We all would like a 1/10" grouping rifle to whack woodchucks with, just from a point of pride (mine shoots better than yours)...

... but in the field, the guy with a 1/2" rifle will kill as many 'chucks at 600yds, as the guy with the 1/10" rifle.

On the other hand, the guy with the 1/2" rifle will be laughed off the local benchrest range after his first match.

This a little off topic, but when we (the collective) pick a smith, we need to be realistic about what we want - you don't take your Mustang to the Porsche dealership for a tune up (if you have half a brain)... especially if you are on a budget.

To send a field rifle to a top smith is not the wisest decision a man can make.

Now would I throw a lot of money in a Ruger 77?

You gotta be kiddin' - It's money down a rat hole.
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