3 shot groups vs 5 shot groups

6724

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as long as i have been shooting i have heard that a group should be 5 shots. recently i have read that most rifles can sometimes put 3 shots together nicely, but that another 2 shots really tell the story. then i have found that in the absence of multiple 5 shot groups averaged, a 7 shot group will statistically show what a rifle is truly capable of. so why then am i seeing so many people proclaiming how accurate their rifle is with only 1 3 shot group to back it up?

is it ammo cost? is it that people know that the 4th and 5th shot will undoubtedly open the group up some?

once i was shooting my 50bmg at a range of 1600yds, i put one shot on the target, then a second, and then a third. my buddy says wow, you got a [beeep] of a group going, better quit now while you are ahead. i said "no, it doesnt count if it is not 5 shots". i put 2 more in the group opening it up to just under 15". by far my best group ever at truly long range. if i had shot only 3 shots, it would forever be the "almost group"
 
The larger the test group the more accurate the data. I know my rifle/ammo combo will group well regardless of 3 or 300 shots. I on the other hand pull the 5th shot as often as not and ruin a group. It has nothing to do with the rifle. Off a bipod etc. 3 or 5 is good. Out of a vice no reason not to shoot 7 and discount 1 high and 1 low and you have a basic average. A match rifle should have 1 ragged hole regardless.
 
I have always been blown away by this, myself! In my opinion it really doesn't matter, three or five. As long as you can get a gun to group loads or put the majority in one spot, that should tell you what the ammo is capable of. Now if you've tried all types of ammo and changed loads multiple times and can't come up with something consistent, it's the gun! Get rid of it. IMO, guys beat themselves up way to much about the whole three shot and five shot group thing! There are way to many variables. Wind, temperature, humidity, cold barrel/warm barrel, clean barrel/dirty barrel, etc. The bottom line for me is to consistently place my shots into whatever size kill area my target animal will have.
 
It all boils down to heat, a sporter barrel can handle 3 shots if given a little time between, a heavy barrel can handle five or more. ed
 
Yeah it is funny how this dilemma works out. I go off a 5 shot group but if someone goes off a 3 shot then oh well. I am out there to shoot my best and not outshout another unless it is a competition.

I would like to prove it to myself that I can shoot a 5 shot group accurately. Other than that it really does not matter to me.

I always use the analogy, "do you golf"? It is the same thing. You do not put a par if you shot 2 over to get yourself better. You practice until you can put par on the scorecard honestly.
 
I'm with 2 much(I hate saying that) on this one. I also believe it depends on the use of the rifle. For a bench rest shooter that shoots 10 round intervals a 3 or 5 shot group is worthless. But for a hunting rifle I am most concerned about the one cold bore shot the most. I want to cut the X with the first shot every time with a hunting rifle. What does it matter what shots 2 through 5 do if the first shot cuts the X with a deer rifle??

So for me it depends on the usage of the rifle. For my varmint rifles I like 5 shot groups. For my deer rifle anything between a one shot to three shot group is more than satisfactory for me. Actually for that rifle I care more about the first cold bore shot-it has to cut the X.

I am not a target shooter. Once I have my load worked up, and my rifle sighted in. That is the last of my bench shooting. The rest is practice for hunting situations. Tom.
 
If you really wanted a "statistically significant" group, you'll need to shoot at least a 20 shot group.

I say if you really want to say you/the gun are truely accurate, you'll be able to get a solid 3 or 5 shot group at any time.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpThe old adage, "Three shots test the rifle, and five shots test the shooter," seems to be apply to me.

+1


20 rd groups will show your marksmanship discipline!!
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RR
 
Originally Posted By: ShoesIf you really wanted a "statistically significant" group, you'll need to shoot at least a 20 shot group.

I say if you really want to say you/the gun are truely accurate, you'll be able to get a solid 3 or 5 shot group at any time.

I agree. I have often shot several 3 shot groups, but only at the same target dot.

Just for even more fun try this, take a target to the range and shoot only 1, 3-shot group at it. Save the target and come back another day and shoot the same target with a 3 shot group again. Do this 4 or 5 different days.
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgun3 rounds for a huntin' rifle. 5 minimum for a match rifle.....

I agree with this. But when I'm working up a load for one of my guns I will do a 5 shot group @ 100yds to see what load works. Then when I figure out which load I want to use I will load 15 to 20 more with that load and go out and shoot 5 shot groups the next 3 to 5 days and see if they hold the group I had. After that if I'm using the rifle to make a one shot kill I will shoot 1 shot everyday at the yardage I want to zero in at till I hit the X or bull (whatever you want to call it). This gives me a cold barrel zero. If I'm going to be shooting shot after shot hunting that day, I will zero @ yardage with a warm barrel, then I will fire the gun once in the morning before I plan to shoot my prey. This would be a warm barrel zero.
 
Not trying to high jack this thread but my main concern is with hunting and I guess the first shot would mean the most to me. So with just factory rifle barrels how long would you guys wait when working up loads? I shoot three shots and wait five minutes and shoot three more shots and wait five minutes and on and on. Each three shots represent a different powder amount. Thanks Rick
 
Any shot after the first shot within a 24hr period would be what they consider a warm barrel. But the temp the gun is in would change that. If your in 30 degree weather your barrel is going to cool down faster then in say 50 degree weather. So the way your doing it would be a warm barrel zero/shot group.
 
As above, depends on the outside temperature. 90 degree days I wait longer than 40 degree days.

I usually just feel the barrel with my hand. When it's cold I shoot another group.
 
Oh ya and another thing is that if you reload your own ammo, when you buy another keg of powder it will be from a different lot most likely. This can change what you loads do also. Most of the time its not enough to notice unless your a paper shooter at long range then it can make a difference.
 
so everyone agrees that a small 3 shot group is easier than a small 5 shot, and that invariably a 5 shot group will be larger than a 3 shot group with the same rifle? so a small 5 shot group is more meaningful than a small 3 shot group.
it was the purpose of my original post to find out why so many people are bragging about how small a group their rifle shoots but only backing it up with 3 shots. it is my opinion that to be representative of what the shooter and or rifle will do there needs to be more than 3 shots. i have shot many 3 shot groups with all bullets touching, but the number of 5 shot groups that are one ragged hole is maybe 20% of that.
i used to shoot quite a bit at a local range, [beeep] i used to shoot several thousand rounds a year, now not so many. in all my days at the public range i have NEVER seen anyone shoot a 5 shot ragged hole at 100yds, i have never seen anyone shoot a .5 minute group at any range. fact is most people i have seen at the range cant shoot anywhere near 1 MOA, even firing only 3 shots. most people in the days leading up to the rifle seasons are lucky to put all their rounds in 3 inches at 100yds. i once had a friend save his 200 yard target to show me, he was so proud that he had finally shot a genuine 4" group at 200 (he is not a very good shot). the next time i saw him he showed me his target, sure enough 3 shots were in about a 4" group..... and the other 2 shots enlarged the group to about 7"! he told me he was confident in taking an elk at out to 400yds!
 
what we are trying to say is there are so many things that can make a 3 or 5 shoot group good or bad. The rest, person, load, gun, temp, varying wind speed. My 220 swift loves 40 gr v-max with 42 grains of H380 (shoots 3/8" 3,5,10 shot groups) but if I load it with 41.5 or 42.5 grains of powder it shoots a 1" group. So like we say there are many factors to how and way a gun shoots good or bad groups. If you ever had a chance to shoot at Camp Perry in Ohio you would learn that the heat vapors from the ground will change you group as well. If you have ever been looking through your scope and see the heat vapors rising and then they go at an angle this will throw your bullet off to the side and so forth.
 


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