Ethics?

I don't hunt for fur in the prime of season, no where to sell them around here. That being said, I like the idea of leaving the yotes alone and letting them raise their young and giving me more targets come October when I get serious.
Besides I don't like the heat when it comes to calling yotes or any other critter.

Just not cool to kill a female who might have pups. I would of course go to my friends dairy and kill coyotes if he called with a problem as anyone else would.

Time to get some loading and range practice in anyways.
 
Coyote predation on deer likely varies with the area and with opportunity. Variables include the size of deer (from Collie dog size to big northern mulies close to caribou size) and conditions sometimes favour the coyote and sometimes the deer. In Central BC coyotes didn't seem to bother deer much except in fawn time and in certain winter conditions. If we got a crust on knee deep snow, the deer had a tough time, breaking through every step, while coyotes run on top of it level with the deer's neck. Coyotes hit the deer hard when that happened, and ate a lot of venison. In powder snow three feet deep or more, I felt for the coyotes. I watched one traveling in such powder by a series of long leaps, sort of porpoising through the snow and only rising above it on the top arc of each jump. Coyotes also would herd deer onto lake ice, and then chase around them till they slipped down. If a deer does the splits on ice, it damages his pelvis a biologist told us and then is on the dinner plate for a coyote. A pair or more of coyotes would deliberately chase deer toward the lake. A rancher friend of mine simply quit raising sheep due to coyote losses, and that was money for his family. He killed every coyote he could at any time of year.
 
There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups.

People that think they are doing a great service to wildlife because they kill a summertime coyote are sorely mistaken.

The bottom line is that a weekend hunter has 8 full months to control coyotes outside of the dening season. If he can't get the job done in that amount of time during prime hunting conditions he damn sure don't pack the gear to get it done during denning season when calling can be the most difficult.

Year around calling will produce an overall increase of educated coyotes. When you finally establish a population of nearly un-callable coyotes you will have big problems shooting them unless you start using alternate means like trapping, gunning from a plane, getters and such. Recreational callers only see the cream of the coyote population. For the most part to really have any impact on local population full time professional trappers and denners need to be brought in. Even at that you are still fighting an up hill battle.

We have all read on this board about how people are hearing and seeing sign everywhere but they can't get anything to respond. We have all read about how this person and that person and that person has made 100+ stands in a row with out any thing to show for it.

It seams to be a standard practice to let an area rest for X amount of days or weeks or even over a month before calling it again. Do you ever stop and wonder why people do that? It is because you will increase your chances of calling in coyotes. That resting time gives a coyote a chance to forget bad experiences they may have had with man and calls. If coyotes are never given that chance to rest and let their guard down you are not going to call them on any kind of a regular bases. That is when you start hearing the whiners complaining that they cannot call anything in. The areas they are in are never given any rest. The coyotes are there and what they are doing is probably sufficient to call them in.

As a full blooded coyote hunter I can not understand why other coyote hunters would hunt during denning season for two reason. One being you are just making your overall hunting success less productive than it could be and secondly you will run the risk of eliminating more of your chosen game than you are actually shooting.

I cannot justify a slow death of one animal just on the off chance it may give me an opportunity to kill an additional separate species. Predator populations do not control pray populations for the most part. It is just the opposite in most cases. Coyotes will eat almost anything and in the end the populations of both predators and pray are dictated by natural cycle rates, disease and good wet springs. Everything does better when they are born on green grass.

I shot 166 coyotes this fur season (I will post a picture of the fur on a later date) and it was all done before breeding season. Depending on the spring hatch of coyotes I will shoot well over a 100 coyotes next season as well just like I have done for the last 13 years. NOTHING at all would change if I chose to hunt coyote's year around except I would end up shooting less coyotes and wasting more fur. The few coyotes I shoot have zero impact on their overall numbers and have zero impact on the coyotes natural pray.

I am not a hero for killing coyotes. I am not some kind of protector of the poor and defender of the week and I am not so obtuse as to even conceive of the very idea that I may be. I am just educated in the facts about what coyotes do and do not do and know the difference between what they are capable of doing and what they actually do in my area. If I quit shooting coyotes all together it wouldn’t make a lick of difference to any wildlife population, predator or prey. Coyote hunters have far less of an impact than they like to think they do. Sure coyote hunters kill a ton of coyotes every year but like I said we are just taking the cream off the top. The numbers we kill seem big when you add them all up but when you consider the large areas that they are taken over it is hardly a scratch.

The more and more people get into calling the more difficult it will be to call. People are starting to realize that if they want good hunting they need to give the coyotes a break and there is no better time to do it than during the summer.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Quote:
In Florida where I hunt, the coyotes specialize in newborn fawns at this time of year. I guess it's a matter of perspective. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Kill the adult coyote and have the young die in the den or kill the adult coyote and have a few more fawns survive.

They stop us from all hunting on public land about now and then we have a one month turkey season in the spring we can use to kill yotes on public land.

After that they get a rest until October-November due to lack of seasons and you can't even possess a firearm on public lands here without a season, so I guess they get some free time.

Our yotes are so hard to hunt anyway I don't think that managing them by allowing them a rest in the spring and summer is going to change the population much anyway. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Our deer herd is always low on public land and in the last few years, since we started seeing a lot of coyotes we rarely see does with 2 fawns and often don't even see them with one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Besides... Who hunts coyotes in Florida? There are just a handful of us.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

$bob$



ME! I had perfect shot set up yesterday morning on my own farm, we have calf issues here and foals so the coyotes have to go. I lost my shot cause I paused with blurry morning eye one coyote was missing a tail and made me pause long enough to loose my opportunity, 3 of the dern things and a decoy tailess one that threw me for a loop. WOndering if it was my neighbors dog LOL, wonder how it lost its tail.
 
Hi Paxo,

Still havin' trouble with those dan yotes on your farm?

I'm moving into and rennovating my new (to me) home for the next couple months and after that I'd be happy to come down there and help you miss, er.. uh... shoot those coyotes... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sorry I missed you before I moved up to Tallahasse. Been pretty busy... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Someone that might help you is grumpy. I haven't seen him here lately prolly cuz he's out doing what we're talking about... Hunting... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway... He'll prolly be back here soon and can give some better advice than I can and maybe some time he and I can come miss, er.. uh... shoot sommuhyeryotes.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

$bob$
 
They are getting thick around here, cattle farms are getting harassed more and more. Some of the farmers I spoke to often take 15 of them just over the summer months. Im getting more patient /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif, i was never good at sitting and waiting, but Im working on my "stag/Lurcher" scene and I wont have to sit still then !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Idhunter, I smell an ambush. LOL What is the relevance of your questions to the topic? Lets start there.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
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No ambush at all... It's just that usually someone that dispenses all this "expert advice" has a lot of experience and is willing to tell us where they got it.

Here's something about me. I'm 53 years old and have been predator hunting since the tender age of 7.

I've lived and hunted in 11 states including Colorado, Illinois, Texas, and Florida.

Your profile tells me nothing at all so I don't know where your experience came from. I thought I'd just ask.

Most of us have no problem letting people know who they are, where they live, how old they are, and how long they've been hunting.

$bob$
 
I am flattered that you would call my advice “expert” because I don’t claim to be one. Thank you. My name is Quinton Wagoner and I live in Nebraska I am 30 years old and have hunted predators nearly full time during the fur season for 13 years with my best season being 212 coyotes. You can run a search in photo gallery to see 130 some of the coyotes I shot this year if you get board or still have concerns about my credibility or experience. I have only hunted a half of a dozen states but have hunted predators with a full time ADC professional in Africa 3 times. Next March I will be working damage control over they’re with him again. I have no problem telling people my name or about my experiences because I am proud of both. Got to go for now. I will catch up with you guys later. This is getting interesting.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Around here I will shoot them year-round. They are unprotected and legal to shoot all year. Farmers in the area want them gone and don't care when you do it. If it is decided that they need to be managed and a season is adopted,then so be it.I am not concerned about hunting for fur and in this area during the time the pups are bulking up the pheasants are also hatching and when a yote takes out the adult pheasants to feed the pups their chicks die or are also eaten. I don't see how I would be more compassionate because I let a pup live for a few more months before I blew it apart with a hollow point.
 
The coyote season in MI runs from July 15 to April 15, so no hunting occurs by law during mid-April to mid-July every year. That being said, coyotes CAN be hunted any time of the year by the landowner if they are doing damage on his property. The only exception here in the UP of MI is during rifle deer season when NO coyotes can be taken. This is done to preserve the wolf population.
The point is, if year round coyote hunting is LEGAL in your respective state, it is YOUR decision whether you hunt them and no one elses. I can respect anyone's decision on when they hunt, as long as it's legal. I do not condone law breaking of any kind. However, anyone trying to force their "higher ethics" on someone is horse hockey and nothing more. I find it quaint that some people worry about the coyote pups starving, when whitetail fawns are eaten alive to feed said pups. Yes, coyotes do kill deer for food. I've seen it many times. MI VHNTR
 
Her we go again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Is it spring already /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif.


Please keep it cival. I like these debates until they get personal. Their are two basic schools of thought on this subject and in my mind neither is wrong until someone try's to belitle someone for having a differing opinion.

Here are some thoughts that are sure to spur the debate.

What do coyotes eat in the spring?

Even though we know they do. Let just say that coyotes don't prey on calves, sheep and fawns.

That leaves rats, mice, rabbits and a few other unfortunate critters.

Aren't rats, mice, rabbits and other critters having baby's this time of year?

What happens to the babby rat's, mice and rabbits when mama joins the coyote family for dinner?

Do they starve?

Can we let this happen?

Are we unethical sportsmen to let this tragedy occur?

When you kill a coyote in the spring is it alway condeming pups to starve?

At what age can the pups survive without mama?

At what age can pups survive without both parents?

The debate ussually boils down to the fur guys against the hunt for fun guys. Being from Texas where our fur is essentially worthless. I know Q, I know, you would even skin a 5 dollar coyote. Been there got the shirt, not going back. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. I'm mainly one of the hunt for fun guys. I also hunt for a living though through my video's, guiding and the occational ADC job. I can easily see how people can take offence to it being insinuated that hunting coyotes in the spring is somehow unethical. In the end you will have to decide for your self but if you will be honest with yourself whether you are a "hunt for fur" guy are a "hunt for fun" guy we are both exploiting the coyotes life to fullfill a goal. Satisfaction comes in all forms. What satisfies one won't neccesarily satisfy another. We can come up with all sorts of reasons to justify killing coyotes or for that matter not killing coyotes. Just remember you are the one that you need to justify it too and not anyone else.

Good Hunting

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Well said, MI VHNTR. Horse hockey indeed.

This is all the predator hunting world needs. To be divisive over something this stupid. Do you hunt deer over bait or not? Do you shoot inline muzzleloaders or traditional? Modern bows or traditional? Run bears/cats with hounds or not? Don't hunters have enough people trying to bash us? Why are we constantly finding crap to bicker about?

Q Wagoner, you don't want to hunt coyotes during the denning season. Hallelujah. Frankly, I couldn't care less what you did. But talking crap about me and telling me I have no class is wrong. Because I don't agree with you? If the farmers I hunt on want some coyotes killed, I come running. That's why they like me. If someone like you with your "high morals" told them that you preferred to give them a break during their denning season, they'd probably tell you to lay off your crackpipe. That just doesn't fly around here. Coyotes cause problems here. When you can go out and hunt responsibly and take care of that problem, you earn favor in the landowners' eyes. Right now, they have calves hitting the ground. Coyotes eat calves. If pups die in the den after I shoot coyotes at this time of year, then that's just tough.

Jerrod
 
Obtuse???? What the heck is that suspose to mean? Now Q, none of us think your overweight! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Now do we boys? Come on back Q. We love how you bring down the fire and brimstone on them puppy killers! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

My Eastern Brothers. I too once believed in shooting them vermin any time of the year. But after hearing testamony from brother Q, and a few others here, I have seen the light! Why kill 5 or 6 coyotes in one shot, when in just a few months, those little dogs could provide you with weeks of enjoyment. Why bite the hand that feeds you. There bound to be a dumb one born in the bunch that would even fall for my lousy calling. Now I know some of you ranchers and livestock farmers have to get rid of "problem" coyotes occasionally through the summer, and I can't blame you for that. I think of coyotes as a resource. Not money for me, heck no, they cost me a small fortune. Coyote hunting, for me is something to look forward to through the summer months. It makes working long hours bearable sometimes just thinking about November through March. It's a great outdoor experience. I've hunted many years and can remember when there wasn't a coyote within 100rds of miles of here. And for that matter, very few deer either! These woods around here sure would be quiet without their songs. And that, I would surley miss. kyray
 
I will throw my hat in the ring here. I never actually stop hunting coyotes at any time during the year. However, I love to turkey hunt, so this takes up all of April, then it is Squirrel and Rabbit season, then it is deer season, and Turkey again, so, I actually hunt coyotes and bobcats from December to February. I have been bashed by several others on the board because I hunt coyotes year round, but they just don't understand, some critters taste better than coyotes and they take priority in filling my freezer.
 
Quinton,

Thanks for the lesson on coyotes. I have a little experience with coyotes myself that could be a little enlightning. I like to call and kill coyotes as most if not all do on this board. I call in a pretty impressive number of coyotes each year as well and know quite a bit about their behavior. Coyotes do sometimes kill calves, lambs, sheep, fawns and other assorted creatures. Dead coyotes don't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif. You know I love ya man. In a manly kind of way of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. But what harm can it do if a few guys choose to fight the warmer weather once in a while and try and call in a coyote for the fun of it? Very little if any. You yourself said that.

All the members here like to call and kill coyotes and for the most part don't do it for a living as you and I. Most work full time jobs and have families. They hunt when they get a chance. Most of them understand that they aren't making a huge impact on the predator population and they don't care. They just like calling and shooting coyotes, whenever they get the opportunity. And in my mind , there ain't nothing wrong with that. So what, if it makes a guy feel good when he kills a coyote in the spring. So what he if want's to justify it by saying he potentialy saved a fawn, calf or even a rabbit. They ain't vegatarians you know. You yourself said that they weren't very receptive this time of year so you shouldn't worry to much about it. Just how many coyote pups starve to death because of the awful weekend recreational caller. Not many, would be my guess. Most of these guy will be fishing and doing other things as soon as it Springs up. Again, Thanks for the lesson. Just don't take it so hard when people don't think the way you do.

swokshooter,

Welcome to PM. Never mind Quinton. He is a very likable guy if you ever get a chance to meet him. I'm sure ya'll would get along. Its just that he has made it his cause to enlighten us hetherns that to kill coyotes out of his prescribed time is WRONG. It is much better to let them hatch so we can kill them at a later date when the fur is prime. Sounds rather ridiculous to me, but what do I know, my coyotes bring 5 bucks if you can find someone to buy them. If it make you happy to get out with your calls on a nice spring day and whack a coyote or two then more power to you. GOD BLESS AMERICA /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif. This is a great board and we have many members with differing ideas.


To those who might want to know when I hunt coyotes. I have no set dates. I hunt them when I get good and ready. But it is usualy when it starts to cool down and get comfortable in the Fall until it gets to warm in the Spring. I hate the Spring /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif. I know Quinton, I'm just a hethern

PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL.

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Man this is my kind of topic. I have a wildlife management degree and was lucky enough to work around people who are studding coyotes at Utah State University, and at the U.S. department of Agriculture’s coyote research facility in Logan Utah ( I did not get to spend much time there, but it is an awesome facility). I also did a number of research papers on coyote deprivation and have preformed necropsies
on dead coyotes and sheep, and I also worked on a Ranch where they have been doing extensive research on coyote deprivation on sheep. I am not an expert on this, but all the research shows, that coyotes do prey on sheep, fawn deer and antelope, but it is usually not a huge problem, with some exception in certain areas. The perception of deprivation by coyotes is usually way over exaggerated by hunters, and livestock growers, but some deprivation appears to be culturally taught form one generation to the next, in certain areas. The other interesting finding from one study that I am familiar with showed that alpha coyotes in pairs with pups in a den, are almost exclusively responsible for sheep deprivation in the late winter and spring, and sheep kills almost stopped after the pups where weaned. Any way the point of my rambling is that coyotes usually are blamed way to much for livestock/deer kills, and that unless you are acting as an agent of a landowner, lets give them a rest so we will have some health population of dumb pups next year, lord knows I need them as dumb as possible.
Check out these web sights they are cool links about coyote biology.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/field/logan.html

http://www.stoller-eser.com/NERP/coyote.htm
 
All very interesting, I myself just like killing coyotes and do it all year and yes I do kill a lot of them and yes I know I don't make a dent in the areas I hunt. That's why we have guys in planes shooting them all year here so I don't get to shoot the dumb ones they already got.Ha Ha so goes life, nobody ever said it was pretty or nice out there.
And there is nothing funner to shoot than a coyote you called up no matter when it is. With all the callers out there now anyways, those dogs are just gonna get smarter and smarter anyhow.I just don't like giving them a break anytime.I bet there are a lot of guys in Nebraska are glad the Q Wagners out there stop hunting after their self imposed fur season so there aren't quite as many callers calling the areas they are...Good hunting ..NVWalt
 
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