Ethics?

SalemDawger you are the man. Had I said something like that I would be broke on the racks for shoving my self-imposed ethics down people's throats. LOL

Byron, you are a heathen and your mother never loved you. That being true I still like you just the same. LOL

I think you are picking up on a long lost debate that got locked up somewhere rather than the points I was trying to make in my post. Which point (that is actually in writing) do you not agree with?

I am not taking it hard that other people kill coyote's year around. No one I know does it around here. SalemDawger nailed in smack dab right on the head with his post. Most people, meaning hunters and ranchers don’t understand coyote dynamics.

NV Walt is a case in point. I have seen many posts by him sniveling about all the coyotes he has around but he can&'t call them up because they are hunted year around. The last one was on a Les Johnson post. He clamed he could show him plenty of tracks and scat and such but couldn't guarantee a coyote as he went on to say they were hunted "year around" and if you listen real close you would hear a fox pro off in the distance or something along those lines. I may look it up tomorrow. It is guys like this I don't understand. They cry the loudest when they can't get anything killed but reject the idea that giving the coyotes a rest may help there success and actually kill more coyotes in the long run. Go figure.

Coyotes killing fawns and pheasants and ducks and mice and moles and what ever else is not causing damage unless they are privately owned. They are just doing what they need to do to exist. You want to talk damage how many millions and millions of dollars worth of damage do deer cause to vehicles and crops. Deer cause many human deaths every year in the U.S. but no one is crying about that except widows and insurance companies. The real question is are the coyotes and hunters killing ENOUGH deer? They were giving away deer permits in Nebraska this year just to help thin the herds!!

How many deer can each hunter take in Texas if he shopped around the state for licenses? Five, ten more? Getting a permit in Texas is no problem. Finding a place to shoot one with out paying big money is. You know as well as I do that there are many places in Texas that would love to have people come in to help them with there coyote "problems" for a one or two hundred dollar a day trespass fee.

Your coyotes would bring more than $5 dollars if they were put up and marketed right Byron and you know it. Day before yesterday a friend and I put up 20 of his coyotes in less than 4 hours. Even at 10 dollars apace that is $200 dollars for a half of a days work. That is good money. We are averaging $20 so that is better than good money. Saving the pelts is no big deal. Once the coyote is dead then it is free money and it helps promote wild life products. If you are not skinning or selling in the round you are just missing out on gas money.

Ethics aside, there is no question that self-imposed hunting seasons are a good thing for the coyote hunter as a whole as it will result in better over all coyote hunting. Recreational callers in and of themselves do not sway coyote populations one way or another and therefore do not sway overall pray populations either. Predation on calves is a coyote problem not a population problem that is why more and more sheep ranchers are switching over to cattle. Sheep ranchers have population problems because coyotes are far more likely to prey on sheep than they are calves. My two best producing ranches have never experienced a calf loss to a coyote. Their neighbor across the fence to the West is complaining every single year about coyote losses. Predation is an attitude rather than a fact around here. That rancher let's me hunt because in his mind he thinks I am saving his calves. The other ranchers let me hunt because I am responsible and leave the gates the way I find them. The hunting on the rancher with his "problem" coyotes sucks after the first week or so of fur season because he lets everyone with a gun in to hunt.

People can hunt when they want if it is legal to do so and experience the successes that they do good or bad as a result. I have a good system and I shoot a lot of coyotes every year in a relatively short period of time. I am convinced if more people adopted my philosophies they too could enjoy greater successes. I skin and take home every thing I shoot that doesn't have mange. If I was just in it to make death I could kill many more coyotes than I do in the same time frame year after year. With no season on coyotes in most states it is up to the hunter to manage his areas for best results. I am just passing along some good advice to help people become more successful. Take it or leave it. I can't make anyone do anything they don't want to and it is not my intention. If some web handle 6 states away thinks that I am forcing my ethics on them they need to get a grip on reality. LOL As far as they should be concerned I am just a web handle too so forget about it and do your own thing. I am happy the way I do things and my numbers speak for themselves.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Q, 160+ coyotes in one season is a LOT more than most of us kill. If you're so worried about coyote populations, how about you stop killing so many of them during the regular season and stop worrying about the denning season? Save some for other folks.

Most of us weekend type hunters get out whenever we can, maybe once or twice a month all year long. We don't kill that many, maybe 25-30 dogs a year in a decent year. That's nowhere near 160!! Or more. You're not the only one killing hundreds of coyotes each year.

I'd say that you professional type hunters are the problem, going around killing so many coyotes "full time". Why don't you follow a self-imposed limit each year instead of killing as many as you possibly can? Us weekender types barely put a dent in the population. Sounds like you're trying to single handidly wipe out the coyote population on your own, as long as it's during your "season". And you question other people's ethics?

I hunt coyotes occasionally for the sport of it. Your kind seems more like the buffalo hunters of the 19th century wiping out entire populations just for the fur. That's just my opinion. We all have opinions, don't we?
 
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Stiff neck, the problem I see is Q kills a high number every year from the same places so wiping them out is out of the question. One key thing I picked up in Q's post was when he hunts on the land with "problem coyoyes" along with everybody else, he has a tough time. So let's see, call an area year round and they get call shy, call only 3-6 months they are easier to call. Makes sense to me, so does this mean Q is human just like the rest of us? Q has his way of doing things and there's not a person on here that wouldn't like to put up that kind of numbers consistantly, and everytime Q post pics of 7 or 8 coyotes several people ask him how do you do it? Well he's told a big part of his "secret" and now you guys want to burn him at the stake cause he kills your share too? I'm 40 years old and have killed coyotes since I was about 14 or so but I'd love to hunt with Q just to learn what I could.
 
Hmmm, touchy topic to say, the least. If it's legal, no big-whoop to me.

Some of the ones, I've tagged over the years were paired up. That in itself, didn't seem to effect the local population. Seems like (in my area anyway). Ya tag one...& two take it's place.
 
There is some great stuff here. Again, I think the mentality toward this subject depends on area and if you are a fur hunter. Also, coyotes play a different role in many areas. Our head deer biologist for the state has proven that coyotes cause 50% mortality to spring fawns (in my area)and we all know what happens when the coyotes start hitting the deer yards. People should not make blanket statements about coyote predation being exagerated and all of the others saying "but our biologist said this etc etc" It all depends on your area!! A coyote in not a coyote! They adapt to different areas and behave differently, choosing to prey on larger game when it is effective.
I kill coyotes for fur and have been known to get a little upset when I see people waisting these prime eastern coyotes but I will kill coyotes all year to protect the few deer we have. The arguement that coyotes are just doing what they are supposed to be doing (killing) is BS! We never had coyotes in Maine until the early 70s. We exterpated the wolf only to get coyotes. I would like to exterpate the coyote from maine and have the red fox make a comeback but i know this won't happen and enjoy persueing the coyote.
 
hmmm, I am a rancher, and we have more problems with feral dogs than coyotes running stock, even tho I have witnessed coyotes take down calves and deer. I ususally do not hunt yotes in spring or summer, but have no problem with those who do. I killed one 2 weeks ago running a calf in a trap.
I do concentrate on the dogs tho...they seem to run down stock just for fun, and the surrounding ranches and I are getting tired of rounding up and seperating our stock after the dogs run them thru the fences. So, I go after what hurts me the most, and right now it's the dogs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 

Wish it was that way here kirby. Maybe it will be someday, although I doubt it will ever be like it is in Texas or some of the other western states. They seem to have unlimited numbers of predators. Oh well, I don't want it to sound like I'm jeleous, but I am in a way. Perhaps envious would be a better word. But then, the few coyotes I

kill each year are not just great trophys to me, but great hunting memories as well. It just makes good sense to leave the pups alone, at least around here.

Tom. The line to hunt with Q starts behind me. Don't try to cut in. LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifkyray

How bout it Q? Ever think of doing a little guiding on the side? The money would have to be better than just furs alone. You might actually meet somebody you like hunting with, and I know it would be a long shot, but they might even take a liken to you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif kyray
 
Yeah Q! Don't you know that you professional full time types are supposed to stop shooting so many and send them to the eastern part of the state? LOL I mean, everyone has the drive and desire to hunt 6 days of the week regardless of the weather conditions and burn out, I'm sure we all can kill 166 too! And, we are all good enough with the call, the rifle, and our set ups that maybe 180 is possible if you stop shooting them all. Lol. I hunt the opposite end of Nebraska from Q, and things are quite different around here. We have mange bad, truck hunters, dog hunters, road hunting deer hunters, and not nearly as many coyotes as the western part of the state does. Yet, it is very rare for someone in this end of the state to hunt into March, most stop in February. Why? We look forward to hunting what is out there the following fall. I want as many targets as possible, and want them as easy to call as possible. Simple as that. I saw one a week or so ago close to my house, looked to be decent fur. I never thought about shooting it, I thought about about 4-6 young ones that I might have a crack at next fall if the mange leaves them alone. Personally, I'm a coyote hunter first, and hunt other species also. The question I have, is who looks out for the coyote? You have game laws to protect the deer, the pheasants, the turkeys. You have national organizations that try to create habitat and increase the populations of these game species. But who looks out for the coyote population? Who tries to increase their population? Nobody. Sure, coyotes are thick in some parts of my state, and many others and it seems like you can't shoot enough. And people are going to shoot coyotes simply because they can. But we have so many deer around here that bonus tags have been given to thin the population. I see road killed deer every week on my 25 mile drive into work. We have many areas in our corn fields that have been knocked down, chewed, and made useless. But we don't shoot deer in the spring. But it's legal to shoot coyotes anytime, regardless if they are causing problems or not. Anyone see a double standard? Q, I'll expect that first shipment of passed over coyotes next week.
 
actually the spring hunting has been poor for me so i will probably give it up,its usually windy anyway. summer is a different issue because we can hunt some of the high country where the roads are blocked by snow drifts usually late november till late may. it also gives us a chance for good hunting before deer season opens on oct 5th.chukar season opens sept 15th & there are antelope hunts that start mid august.chukar season lasts till mid january.the other hunters of the above species have every right to hunt during these seasons,however that being said its nice to go coyote calling when every other hillside isn'nt crawling with other hunters spooking the coyotes.summer hunting provides the chance to access more remote locations & get away from the crowds. we have lots of public land here,but believe me it gets used !! just my thoughts.....
 




"Ethics aside, there is no question that self-imposed hunting seasons are a good thing for the coyote hunter as a whole as it will result in better over all coyote hunting."

"Recreational callers in and of themselves do not sway coyote populations one way or another and therefore do not sway overall pray populations either"

Hmmm? So which is it?? Every spring we have this topic come up and by the time we have 10 posts on it, people begin argueing with themselves. They usually have a little more daylight between their opposing points of view, to at least give the impression of credibility.

Reminds me of my wife's logic: "Don't bother agreeing with me, I've changed my mind."

And therein lies the answer to the mystery of grown men spouting rhetoric to save the coyotes for the "children."
It really is the result of simple natural processes.

Spring is coming. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Estrogen levels spike. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Logic and reason are replaced with moaning and whining. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Time could be better spent doing what this season is intended for, saying good riddance to winter and breeding. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

If it's legal in your area and it cranks your tractor, then get at it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

My personal take on this is some people have a spike in their estrogen level every spring and it causes them to disagree with everyone about everything at some time in the day. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I really have no opinion one way or the other on this issue.

However, saying that I only killed five coyotes this year because someone else killed 160+ is some well thought out logic. It kinda' like saying I would have caught more fish yesterday if there hadn't been so many water skiers on another lake twenty miles north of where I fished. LOL

Hope everyone has a good day. - BCB

Spelling edit. - BCB
 
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I hunt from the END of October until the END of March. The reason I stop in between is the heat and snakes. I have read many varying opinions here and some seem to think that 'OL Wile E is gonna get "hunted out". These folks should know that the coyotes are extremely prolific breeders. The harder their hit, the more successfully they "re-populate". Coyotes are like roachess with teeth and fur...Good luck wiping them out!

I, personally, like the idea of giving the coyotes a breather for the summer, and let them raise their pups. I'm glad that here in Arizona, the weather pretty much forces you to stop hunting in the summer. Sure, there are a few who make stands in 118 degree weather, and I've even done it one day myself; however, not anymore for me.

If ethics are truely coming into play, is it "ethical" to hunt them with firearms, or should we resort to sticks and stones? You cannot have it both ways. You either kill these animals or you don't. If you feel strongly about not hunting them while the pups are being reared, then don't. If the prospect of killing pups or their mothers doesn't bother you, then you should not be persecuted or labled as unethical.

This is just one more "self-division" amongst hunters that could very well result in a "Coyote Season". Be careful boys....Jeff Mock
 
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One thing that each of us need to keep in mind is that ethics are subjective in the sense that what I find enjoyable and acceptable may totally disgust you... If it does, don't do it but don't proceed to tell me that I need to stop, as it is against your ethics. At that point it becomes your personal opinion and we know what opinions are like don't we????........James L.
 
"The other interesting finding from one study that I am familiar with showed that alpha coyotes in pairs with pups in a den, are almost exclusively responsible for sheep deprivation in the late winter and spring, and sheep kills almost stopped after the pups where weaned."
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This sounds like ME talking. Since most of the killing is done in spring, that makes spring a good time to stop some killer coyotes from doing their thing don't it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Hunt them all year if need be. That and the guy that owns the land I hunt 'em on wants them gone. I'll mainly hunt more in the winter just because the summer is fishing season. I love to hunt and fish but there is a time for each one
 
Well said James L.

So…What many of you guys are saying here is that your ethical beliefs prevent you from hunting coyotes during the denning season in order that 1) pups don’t starve to death and 2) you will have more coyotes to kill in the fall ? Sounds like a Shakespearian tragedy interlaced with flavors of Grimm’s Golden Goose fairytale.

Personally I find it offensive that thousands of poor, furry, cute baby rabbits and field mice are left motherless and starve to death during to oh so critical times during their child-rearing development because the selfish ol coyote is only concerned about her family. I’m reasonably sure that if a coyote happened upon a newborn antelope that it would cock its head, wink one eye and decide not to eat it because it would surly be unethical to chew on something so helpless.

I also find it disturbing to hold any hunting season during the rut or any mating season for that matter. Nothing is worse than having sex interrupted. But, that activity is perfectly acceptable to hunters everywhere. Here we have some poor buck working his butt of keeping other males away from his women and here comes Johnny who shoots him dead. All because he was trying to ensure that there would be offspring. How ethical is that? Same for Elk. Same for Turkey.

It is a rare occurrence for me to shoot a wet coyote bitch. That’s not to say I don’t shoot an occasional male who was out hunting for table meat for the family. After all, I’ve read several articles trying to convince me that coyotes, like swans, mate for life leading the unknowing to believe that the widower is doomed to a celibate life thereafter.

I guess I’m a bad person, because I occasionally call coyotes whenever I get the time and even if that urge hits me during the summer and early fall.

I usually wait until the fur is prime before I leave ‘em lay.

This pros has been provided tongue-n-cheek. Well sort of anyway. I'm not 100% positive. All these personal opinions are so confusing. Until I get it sorted out, I'll keep hunting.
 
"I usually wait until the fur is prime before I leave ‘em lay."

Man I hope you didn't say that out loud. :[duh]:

It seems such a waste to let those fine, dare I say super fine Az. coyote hides go untanned. Can't you at least skin them, tan them and roll them up to use as dry land lufa sponges or dog chews, or chamois for car washes, or seat covers for an atv.
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