Ethics?

Lordy I do love a spirited debate!

Q, I do have a smallish disagreement with you.

"As hunters we need to have a unified standard of ethics to be accepted as legitimate. My concern is that antis will start using the information that we callers don’t have an impact on coyote populations at all so there is no reason we should kill them at all? That’s a different way to look at it isn’t it? Maybe some day we can only kill coyotes if there is a truly legitimate problem and we may have to apply for permits to take care of these problems. Maybe only licensed professionals will be allowed to take care of these problems? We don’t really know what the future holds for the coyote hunter or trapper but all I can say is that we need to keep our noses clean and show an up most respect for all of the animals we hunt and harvest. If we don’t it will hurt us in the long run."

The antis I've run across don't really give two figs for when I hunt, what I hunt, how I hunt it, etc. They are against KILLING especially for sport and usually anti gun too. While they generally ignore the obvious, I'm sure they would be much happier if their steaks and leather belts were grown in a vat.

The only place I've ever seen or heard any debate about the ethics of how/where/when/what or why it's OK or not OK to hunt is among hunters.

IMHO about the best we can do versus the antis is to keep a low profile wherever they are herding-up and be law abiding (and if possible teach their kids to hunt, LOL).

I cringe whenever I see a game animal tied on someones back bumper driving down a city street or read a newspaper story about poaching.

Another interesting resource for coyote info with lots of referenced papers is:

http://www.canids.org/PUBLICAT/CNDNEWS3/coyotes.htm

Edit: One large disagreement with Q, everyone with sense knows that the best rock and roll band is a tie between Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"Q", I'm surprised, no wait I'm not surprised, no wait I am.

That's my impression of John "flip flop" Kerry or our own 'Q' take your pick.

Different year same routine. "Q" you start off nearly rational in this perennial debate, but in short order you go rapidly downhill.

You go from semi facts to utter nonsense and take personal shots instead of sticking to the topic and defending your position.

Now since you are a Master Debater [excuse the spelling] I'm sure you realize that when your argument becomes personal you've lost the debate.

I asked you to explain why you were making opposing statements in adjoining sentences.

Your explanation :

"TOM64, Kyray, BigC or anyone else, if you hunt with me you are hunting for free ."

Now while I'm sure you know what the experience of hunting with you is worth, it adds no clarity to my queery. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

"Our online Predator Master Redfrog has deemed me or at least what I say un-credible. I am sure you would be much better off to drop him a thousand dollars and go on one of his weekend hunts. With tips and travel expenses you could probably do the whole weekend for under $1,500 if you pinched your pennies. Don’t even ask him to hunt in the spring though. He once told me that he found it distasteful to kill the parents of anything and have the offspring die a slow death."

Now while I appreciate your good intentions in trying to advertise my hunts, I must ask you again to mind your own business. It does not reflect favorably on my enterprise when some one of you caliber writes 4 sentences about it and me and manages to get the whole thing wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

"Anyway it is now clear that the man cannot do anything cruel or inhumane or unethical to any animal as long as what he does is legally"

If this is referring to me, this statement, along with this one:

"If you are in Alberta and run coyotes with hounds you are not only unethical but you are an immoral, cruel poaching POS. legally speaking of course"

Leaves me confused again as to your source of information.

Oh Wait a minute!! I think I see where these "Facts" came from.
In one of your other posts, I see you made several references to crack, so I'm guessing these facts were pulled from yours.

If you wish to offer opinions or debate a topic, please stick to the topic. If you wish to make things personal or continue to stick your nose in my business, I would Strongly recommend you find something else to do with your time. This is not the first time I've given you this advice, but it will be the last.
 
Last edited:
nm leon, sorry buddy pink floyd wins the tiebreaker!! i think i have become comfortably numb...... good debate here very interesting. we all have opinions.
 
Redfrog, or some other moderator should post a poll about this issue of spring hunting. I would love to know what the overall consensus of the PM member is.

We are all members of the same hunting family, lets not let this split us up.
 
SalemDogger,

A pole might be a good idea. I will make a prediction on the out come. I'll go out on a limb and say that a large portion don't hunt in the spring but have enough restraint and respect not to bash those that do. My position on this is and always has been that there are a combination of things that naturally deter most guys from hunting coyotes in the spring while whelping in the first place(outside of legitamate ADC work). The number of guys that do are of such a small number to be statistically insignificent. To make the number even more insignificant, how many of these guys actually kill something? and how often is it the female? Also, what are the odds of the pups dying even after moma has gone to coyote heaven? When you experts crunch those numbers get back with me. What I bet you will find is you are bitching about something that rarely happens and when it does has little effect on you, your coyotes, our hunting rights, or whether the earth quites spinning true on its axis. It does however rub me when people try and preach their ethics to those that don't won't to hear them. We have all had different experiences with coyotes that mold our view and help us decide which side of the debate we are on. Some of us exploit the coyotes death for fur money and some of us exploit his death for money in other ways. Neither is wrong and should not even be implied. Some of us just hunt and shoot coyotes for fun. Is that wrong? In my mind it's no worse than exploiting them for money? It's all just the same to the coyote, he/she ends up dead for our enjoyment and or profit. I love to hunt and call coyotes. I also respect the coyote. I don't have the "kill them all" mentality and seldom take targets of opportunity unless I'm being paid to do so. But if a guy does then that is his perogitive and I support his decision, as long as h is having fun. People use the argument that just because it 's legal don't make it wright. As mentioned before, this is subjective. Is it wright to exploit any animals death for fun or money at any time of year? Where you draw the line may not be where others have. You say that you can't understand why people don't see it the way you do, and imply that if they were as educated enough or thought it out like you have they would agree with you. This I can assure you isn't the case with me, and some of the others on my side of the debate. I respect your decision to refrain from hunting coyotes in the spring and for you it's seems the best choice. I also in return expect the same respect from you as I have come to my conclusions in much the same way you have. I have killed a few more coyotes than most people on the board, even Q /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I say that not to boast but to make a point. Of all the coyotes I have killed, maybe 1/2 of 1 % were wet bitches. I hunt pretty much anytime I want to or anytime I'm called with a problem. Matter of fact I'm headed to do some snaring and calling on a couple of fenced game ranches next week where the coyotes will reak havac if not killed(fawning time is coming). Wish I could get there sooner. Dead coyotes whether they are wet bitches are not don't kill the fawns. It will be my goal to either call or snare every coyote that try's to enter the property without concern to the fuzzy, big eared pups. I will have no problem sleeping when I'm finished.

Q,

I hope you kill 266 coyotes next year. If you ever get a chance to come down I'd be glad to show you a few tricks that are sure to get them puny numbers up all before the spring /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. May all your pups grow up to be 50 dollar coyotes so you can shoot them dead rip off their hides and sell it for money. I would't expect you to take money from people for a coyote hunt though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif. That would just be wrong /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Thats funny, I don't care who you are /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I love you man /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif In a manly kinda way, you understand, and my Mama does love me even though I'm a heathern /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

What's was the excuse why we can't shoot summer coyotes? I mean the pups are OK then, Right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif? O yeah, furs no good. It's all about the money. I know Q, I know it's just a waste and thats a valid argument, but my fun is worth something ain't it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Exploiting coyotes for our selfish gain? We should all be ashamed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif.

You are a hillbilly if you think AC/DC can even carry Led Zeplins water /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Good Hunting

Byron
 
Last edited:
I used to kill every yote I saw! once I got into callin'I for the most part quit doing that! mosly because I like to see the COMING TO THE CALL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.but then again I don't shoot turkeys in the fall for the same reason! I like to see them COMING TO THE CALL! I have nothing against anyone who shoots every one they see if that's what they want to do! now on the hunting in the spring deal! I usually hunt them during turkey season {april}if there are no gobblers coming in I just switch over and call yotes! if I see a wet bitch I let her walk! but in all the years I've been killing yotes I've never killed a wet bitch and I've only let one walk that was wet! and should have killed her,she was hairless! a trait which I consider to be genetic due to a low immunity to mange mites! called demadesic {spelling} mange in dogs!
if I am asked to kill problem yotes I will hunt them anytime so long as it's not over 90 degrees! I hate heat! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
now I don't eat them and I generally don't save furs I just hunt them for the fun of it! so that probably makes me unethical in some eyes! ASK ME IF I CARE ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif TRUST ME WE ARE NOT THE ONLY CREATURES ON EARTH THAT HUNTS FOR FUN! I can assure there is no shortage of yotes in my part of texas! no matter how many I take out it seems like there are twelve more to take their place!
Hey byron we still killing yotes next weekend! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Wow! Byron sure said it...

My .02 is that I'll be trying to do some fishing this spring since I've missed out on that in the last couple years! HOWEVER, if I get the opportunity to hunt I will do so. Most of my places need to settle down anyway.

Ethics-wise? I see this as a matter of personal preference and the reasons you feel the way you do. Touchy-feely emotions do not equate to ethics! And let's not forget that 'your' ethics don't necessarily correlate to 'my' ethics! If you want to discuss right and wrong then we have some pretty clear standards for most issues, but for more minor things it begins to change with the individual.. Having said that, I'd like to see the coyotes in my area thrive so...guess what-I can shoot more when I go again! Given that I don't call as many as I wish I could (let alone hit the slippery little devils) the amount I kill whether during spring or any other time probably results in a 'wash' in terms of the overall coyote population.

Mainly it will always boil down to people doing what they feel is right. I don't mind debate, but for those who are getting riled up and personal..take a couple deep breaths and go to the 'happy place'! We would all do well to remember that it's OK not to agree with others but that we also MOST LIKELY will NOT be able to change their opinions. Anybody that wants to rant just loses respect with observers. Lay out your reasons, facts if you have 'em, and let people make their OWN decisions...then show some respect and courtesy!
 
Well boys I been just readin and trying to stay out of this one but I just can't seem to sit by and just read.

So on that note.

In the wild there is and always be cruel endings. Thats the cold hard facts of life and death. Every hunter has to draw his or her own lines in the sand, as to what they will and won't do.

I personaly stop shooting coyotes (on public lands) when I shoot the first rubbed coyote in Febuary. I work for ranchers and that means shooting coyotes all year if they are causing damage... Now some will jump all over me for this but lets be real here. No one crys for the babby cottontails that get orfined when the coyote eats their mom. Nor does anyone whine over the phesant eggs that rot when the coyote eats the hen, so lets be real and realize that most coyote hunters don't hunt year round. Those of us who do , do it on a will call baises and remove only target animals that are causing damage.

Yes there are casualties of war and there will be some seccondary deaths as a result....... no different than the pups that die after their mother gets hit by a car... or kicked by a cow or bit by a rattle snake, so lets be real here.

Ethics is a personal thing we all deal with and must start within.
Thats my 2 cents
sly
 
hey jay I've been reading all this jiberish! I have discovered that you are just exaclty the same kind of unethical heaten that I myself am ! come on down we'll go do some killin' don't tell byron though he'll get jealous! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I once read a book can't remember who wrote it! but it was very informative! as to the bredding habits and other habits of critters from around the world! at the end the guy said "at the end of the world when all living animals are gone there will still be two critters living! the coyote and the cockraoch" that sums it up pretty good in my book! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Lungbuster, Im not sure what the laws are in your state. But it sounds as though you do have the decision of when to hunt. Charish that.

Some want to take advantage of their liberties and more power to them. Pups are vunurable between late April to August. Thats just fact, what you choose to do is your choice. If you were destroying the species they would be protected look at the wolf. Nuff said.
 
WOOOOOAAAAA!!!!


Is that SLY? The slydog himself? Man I haven't seen or talked to you FOREVER!!!!

I am gald to see you are still here! My computer crashed way back when and I lost a bunch of your info etc.

I'm going to call and chat for a while, it's been way-to-long! Plus, I'm tired of my buddies asking to have your calls everytime we go out, so I need to order some more!!

Talk to you soon Sly,

C
 
Well, I Wont be hunting coyotes for a couple of months now, But thats my personal choice. I make it for three reasons , here real soon its going tho be too freeking H O T !!!
I feel - personaly that I owe it to any animal I hunt to kill it as quickly and cleanly as possible , if by some chance I kill momma yote I have viotated My PERSONAL ethic.
AND the catfish are calling!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As for everyone who will be hunting the next couple of months - Enjoy!!! And be sure to post pics and tell the tales to go with them!
 
Thanks Glenn. You must'a been talking to my wife again. Dr. Jay and Mr. Hyde as it were.

It's just about bowfishing time. Yippie! Now I am considered highly "ethical" in this arena since I practice catch and release.


After-thought...
I have a question on ethics.
If you call in a "wet beeep" who has the mange real bad, do you shoot it?


"WET BEEEP!" Too funny. Thought I misspelled and actually tried it two more times. Then I left it as "beeep" hoping it would change back.
 
Last edited:
I'll quit the end of this month, because NYS sez I have to.

Just in time to switch to the few woodchucks the coyotes haven't eaten.

Rick
 
I generally Quit in March, right now there is no bottom to the mud, monday I will be targeting trout with BWO's and a 3 wt G Loomis below the Flaming Gorge for a few days then back to wyo for a day of spring sking at Jackson Hole. There is more to life than killing coyotes. Or maybe I have too many hobbies!
 
Back
Top