Ethics?

Idhunter said addressing Q “Have you ever taken another PredatorMaster hunting with you?”

Yup! I had the honor of spending 2 and a half days with Quinton. The man knows his coyotes! He even let me call on a stand or two. LOL He has a very methodical approach to his calling, and earns every coyote he kills. I was glad that we were there later in the season when he was a little less motivated. I had an idea what we were in for, but my partner…LOL I learned a lot and what I learned opened up some habitat that I have been driving through if I can figure out what the coyotes are doing there I will go out and get them this fall.
 
Coldnosed,

You're a really fortunate guy. I've never hunted with another coyote hunter except a few newbies. Everything I know about coyote hunting I learned here (on PM), from my own experience, and from talks with the other coyote hunters I've met.

Someone like Q could really help other hunters learn fast. I've sure been pi$$ed that I had to miss the LBL hunts... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

$bob$
 
Here's some more for Edge,

Quoted from O'Gormans "Hoofbeats of a Wolfer"

One time up on the Tipton Mountain, I had some bad killing going on, 3-4 at a time. I set some traps where sign showed that coyotes were entering the pasture. I got the chopper to come in and we hunted the pasture and area where I knew the coyotes to be. One July morning about mid-day it got hot and a thunder shower came up and cooled things down. Since it was cool I thought, "Lets give it a try again". So we flew up and started hunting the pasture we had left that morning. There were fresh dead sheep scattered all over! As we flew by my traps, I noticed a fresh caught female coyote caught on a staked prairie dog in a 3-N. Obviously. as the coyotes came in to kill, the female was caught, which caused a severe emotional reaction on the part of the male coyote mate. He went on a rampage, killing lambs as fast as he could in revenge, anger and frustration. A hard hunt with the chopper located and killed him, not far from the trapped female. The killing stopped.
 
whaknstak,

"Welcome to Predator Masters" does not mean welcome to the world...or welcome to predator hunting... I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. I've lived and hunted in several states myself, north to the border, south to the border, west to the Rockies and east...Ok, not any further east than Ohio. And, just for kicks here... Why are you always asking where people live and how old they are? You gonna come and take my lunch money? (Said with a grin)."

You never DID say where you live.... And while I'm at it... How old are you anyway?... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

$bob$
 
ldhunter,

Please don't consider this a personal attack. It's always difficult to debate a point over the internet since neither party can see the other's body language, hear the tone of voice, etc.

So, please know that I write this in the spirit of two friends sort of jabbing at one another on something they don't see eye to eye on.

"Are you on crack" was just an expression. Didn't mean it literally. And, by the way, I'm not in that generation either.

I don't know about the "limited experience" thing. Not as much as alot of fellas older than me I guess...But I'd say more than most of the fellas my age.

No I wasn't accusing you of what you call "slob hunting." I was just saying this is the type of hunting that goes on in Florida due to the loose regs and enforcement. Anyway, slob hunters or not... Florida's bag limits on deer are incredibly liberal (for the lack of a better term). What is the season limit on deer in Florida? I know, for the most part the DAILY limit is two and the POSSESSION limit is four. What about the season? When I mentioned the guy that had shot 16...I do beleive that was 16 legally taken deer.

SIXTEEN! For one hunter! I lived in Florida several years...all the way from west of Tallahassee to just north of Orlando. It was the same story everywhere I went. Lots of hounds, LOTS of dead deer/hunter, lots of trucks racing up and down the roads. I worked in the woods there...when we saw a deer being chased by hounds run by us, it was "run for cover."

I now live in a place that has fairly restrictive season limits on deer...It changes a bit from season to season. And no hound hunting. But I'd guess there are ten times the number of deer here than there are in Florida...And by the way, so would my Floridian relatives who hunt deer in Florida and who come here. And we probably also have several times the number of coyotes as Florida.

I realize that to compare the two areas and single out season limits and hound hunting as THE reasons for this and that is also probably not the wisest thing either. Rate of habitat decline, nutrition base, etc...are other viable factors as well.

I'm just saying that for you to say your deer herd decline is "not rocket science" (implying that the coyote is the reason)... man, there's a whole bunch of issues in Florida that you have to consider before even beginning to consider coyotes.

Oh, and by the way, some consider hunting coyotes during denning season as "slob hunting"...to use your term. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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whacknstak,

I don't consider it personal... I just don't like to be misquoted.

You are typifying hunting in Florida and I've hunted deer here with hounds about 25 years. I've just not seen the type of hunting you mention.

Hunter success ratios went Waaaaaaaaay down when we started seeing coyotes, all coyote scat contains deer hair, a LOT of people are seeing coyotes kill deer.

Maybe all this data has nothing to do with coyoted predation on deer. What's your analysis?

In south Florida there are wildlife management areas that only allow foot access and absolutely no hunting except 9 days a year but the deer populations have plumeted and it's very hard to find ANY doe with a fawn but the coyotes are suddenly everywhere. It ain't rocket science.

I dunno... Maybe I'm wrong but the above mentioned information may point you in the same direction I'm thinking. Coyotes eat deer in Florida and are so successful at it that our already thin herds are being decimated by coyotes.

Draw your own conclusions.

By the way... It is very well know by every Florida dog hunter that I have ever known and my own extensive experience that you kill waaaaaaaaay more deer per day spent in the woods sitting in a tree stand than you will chasing deer with dogs.

Hounds and deer are a way of having serious fun but a pretty crappy and expensive way of putting meat on the table.

On private land where there are more roads and way fewer hunters it might be different but in the National Forests where I hunt the blocks are huge (areas between good roads) and it would take a hundred trucks to surround them and guarantee even one deer killed a day.

As for enforcement... I don't know where you hunted but where I hunt people will turn you in for ANYTHING illegal and law enforcement ALWAYS responds.... Lawbreakers and slobs don't last long.

Your diatribe against Florida dog hunters is both unfair and in my experience completely wrong. I resent it and I'm sure you'd find a lot of anti-hunters that would love to talk to you.

I also have worked "in the woods" several years as a logger, research assistant, and Realtor selling rural properties and see a very different Florida than you've seen.

Yes.. Our deer populations are very low. That's a habitat issue. The quality of forage in Florida won't support much more than on deer per 40-80 acres if they don't have access to human agriculture.

Our coyote populations are proportunatly high in relation to the deer population which hasn't seen such an efficient predator for centuries.

$bob$
 
Idhunter, Yes I am fortunate. A special set of circumstances gave me the opportunity to hunt with and get to know several quality predator hunters that I’m proud to count among my friends.

Cal, Thanks for the references, not that I doubt anything that has been said just so I can learn more.
 
Cal,

Quote:
BOB,
I went back and fixed my other post so you know who said what.



Thanks Cal,

Heres where you quoted me but didn't comment on what I said....
------------------------
Bob said: This is all new to me too... I think that the wolf research people have established that this actually happens in wolf extended families but the wolf is a totally different ball of fur than a coyote.

I am fairly certain that family groups of coyotes often band together to repel other coyotes that invade their territories and to take game too large for singles to take. BUT... This notion of coyotes raising the young of other coyotes is new to me too.
--------------------------

Ok... Do you have a comment on what I said? I think it's quite clear that I wasn't attacking what anyone said nor was I setting myself up as an expert. Just asking for more info.

$bob$
 
No comments Bob, Just pointing out that it does happen and killing the wrong coyotes at the wrong time can have a detrimental effect. As for info, I gave you enough books to find and read to last you a few days! Have fun!
 
ldhunter,
I see you are a dyed-in-the-wool hound man. I learned that the quickest way to get called a @#&^% yankee in Florida was to start bad-mouthing the dog guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hound hunting or not, my point is primarily this... The season limits on deer in Florida are the most liberal that I personally know of. Do you know of a single state where you can legally kill so mnay deer per season? Maybe there is...I don't know. But, as you mentioned, the nutrition base in Florida is so uncredibly low (one deer per 40-80 acres)...couple that with the such liberal limits... It's only a matter of time until it catches up.

I personally beleive that's what's going on now. Sure coyotes may be "a" factor, but not "the" factor nor even a close 2nd or 3rd or 4th, in my opinion. The areas I was referring to was all 3 national forests in Florida and the adjacent land.

And, Bob, if you didn't see the type of hunting I'm talking about over there on the Appalachicola...Well, I just find that to be pretty incredible. I witnessed it every day of the dog season. I'm not talking about trucks "surrounding" a block. I know how big the blocks are...I walked a good part of them. I'm just talking about a type of hunting that i have witnessed no place else and numbers of deer taken per hunter (on the average) that are unheard of in most parts of the country. maybe it's changed in recent years, but I know that's the way it was for many years.

And now, every time I hear a Floridian (relatives and friends included)talk about deer hunting in Florida, they talk about how their deer are dissappearing. Is it any wonder? Low nutrition base, high rate of dissapearing habitat, most liberal season limits (maybe in the country).

Sure the ol' coyote gets some. But I haven't known of a coyote yet to kill 2 or 4 deer per day, let alone 16.
 
Cal,

Quote:
No comments Bob, Just pointing out that it does happen and killing the wrong coyotes at the wrong time can have a detrimental effect. As for info, I gave you enough books to find and read to last you a few days! Have fun!



I somehow doubt that an angry coyoted could run around and kill a bunch of deer so that might not apply here in the piney woods of north Florida.

As far as books? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

There's been a lot said and I don't know what books you're referring to.

$bob$
 
Quote:
ldhunter,
I see you are a dyed-in-the-wool hound man. I learned that the quickest way to get called a @#&^% yankee in Florida was to start bad-mouthing the dog guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hound hunting or not, my point is primarily this... The season limits on deer in Florida are the most liberal that I personally know of. Do you know of a single state where you can legally kill so mnay deer per season? Maybe there is...I don't know. But, as you mentioned, the nutrition base in Florida is so uncredibly low (one deer per 40-80 acres)...couple that with the such liberal limits... It's only a matter of time until it catches up.

I personally beleive that's what's going on now. Sure coyotes may be "a" factor, but not "the" factor nor even a close 2nd or 3rd or 4th, in my opinion. The areas I was referring to was all 3 national forests in Florida and the adjacent land.

And, Bob, if you didn't see the type of hunting I'm talking about over there on the Appalachicola...Well, I just find that to be pretty incredible. I witnessed it every day of the dog season. I'm not talking about trucks "surrounding" a block. I know how big the blocks are...I walked a good part of them. I'm just talking about a type of hunting that i have witnessed no place else and numbers of deer taken per hunter (on the average) that are unheard of in most parts of the country. maybe it's changed in recent years, but I know that's the way it was for many years.

And now, every time I hear a Floridian (relatives and friends included)talk about deer hunting in Florida, they talk about how their deer are dissappearing. Is it any wonder? Low nutrition base, high rate of dissapearing habitat, most liberal season limits (maybe in the country).

Sure the ol' coyote gets some. But I haven't known of a coyote yet to kill 2 or 4 deer per day, let alone 16.



OK... There you go again. You called me a "dyed in the wool hound man"... I'm certainly not that at all. I only hunt with hounds on weekends and have never owned a hunting dog in my life.

I wish you'd quit taking a small amount of facts and making sweeping generalizations from them.

I'm also a YANKEE and proud of it. I am not accepted by the typical Florida redneck as an equal.

The season limits in Florida are so liberal because nobody ever bothered to change them. Our season limits are changing right now but that's not the issue. There are always those that brag about how many deer they kill but nobody ever sees those deer.

The typical Florida hunter has moved here from "up north" somewhere (not many native Floridians left that hunt) and they hunt a couple of years here and NEVER see even a doe. They either give up in frustration or go get on a lease in Georgia, Alabama, or South Carolina where there are FAAAAAR more deer and the seasons are longer.

The few dog hunters that are left typically are fairly well to do business men that can afford the huge vet bills, year round feeding of big packs of big dogs, radio collars, huge gas bills and the incredible amount of time necessary to train dogs.

I'm not totally blaming the whole herd being reduced by coyotes alone but you consistently ignore the FACTS I list.

I am personal friends with about 20 large dog hunting parties. The leader of my dog hunting party is the president of the Florida State Dog Hunters Association. My facts aren't just something I made up.

We constantly interface with law enforcement, biologists, and law makers about deer populations.

I'm tired of arguing with you about Florida deer.

I'm also tired of you trying to tell me all about myself and my friends.

You also have assumed that I only hunt Apalachicola NF. I have hunted Ocala for 10 years, Aucilla WMA for 5 years and south Florida for 4 years too. I know several wildlife biologists on a first name basis and a BUNCH of wildlife officers on that same first name basis.

If you ever get down here... Come hunt with me some time. I suspect it will be an eye opening experience.

G'day Mate... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

$bob$
 
whacknstak,

One issue that I hadn't thought of that might be affecting your friends (or was is relatives) that still dog hunt here. St Joe Paper company was the dominant land owner in the panhandle of Florida for many, many years and recently they've stopping leasing almost ALL of their leased hunting lands. This totalled hundreds of thousands of acres.

This has taken most of the dog hunters in NW Florida and reduced their available land down by about 75%.

The result of that is the crunching of all those dog hunters into a relatively small space. There are just about the same amount of deer being killed according to the biologists but way fewer per hunter/hunting party.

This has caused a lot of people to give up dog hunting in frustration and the emergence of the "super dog hunting clubs" that use radio collars, new trucks, high dollar dogs, large parties of hunters, etc.

This has been very hard on the traditional Florida native hunting family that can't keep up financially. Many of them are extremely upset and giving up. Some have turned "outlaw" and regularly trespass hunt.

It's a sad thing that's happening but it's "progress".

I could never afford to own a large pack of dogs and radio collars and all the financial woes that go with it. I am very fortunate to hunt with people that can and let me go along.

It won't last much longer anyway... As urban America populates Florida the dog hunting will rapidly disappear and it's already started with new restrictive legislation being passed every year.

$bob$
 
Cal;

Please.

Read what Q posted;re the govt trappers.

Then

Read my response;and your response to me.

Then read my post asking that you point out the post in question.

Don't bother quoting O'Gorman,you are preaching to the choir.

To save you some time,I will state (again) that a helper bitch is not only plausible,but common.

However,that a group of coyotes WILL KILL MORE THAN THEY NEED FOR THE EXPRESS USE OF FEEDING MOTHERLESS PUPS IS A LOAD OF CRAP.

Now,either point out where I said what you claim I did,or dont expect me to respond.

Edge
 
Books recomended by Cal after editing his previous post on page 5. It is worth taking a look back at.

"Try the "Clever Coyote" and "The Government Denning Circular" by Stanley Young or W.C. Lemon's "Coyote Denning as a Method of Damage Control". Or "Coyote Den Ecology in the Northern Great Plains" by T.W. Rock."
 
Coldnosed,

Thanks... I now remember reading that before... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Were any of those books written about the eastern coyote which according to the website I just read is a decendent of red wolves dna intermingled with the western coyote's dna.
Red Wolves or Coyotes

Maybe that's why they're so much bigger and harder to hunt? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

$bob$
 
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Uh...whatever, Bob. It's amazing how out of whack internet correspondence gets. It seems as though you accuse me of doing the very thing you are doing...making the assumptions and "sweeping" accusations. I didn't assume that you ONLY hunted the Apalach, as you say I did. I figured it was a pretty good chance that you ALSO hunted the Apalach since you live in NW Florida and hunt on National Forest. That's the ONLY National Forest in the panhandle. It was a pretty safe guess, Bob, that you hunted there.

You said you have hound hunted for 25 years...And defended it staunchly implying that you have "extensive experience" with such hunting. One would take that to imply you are a dog-hunter...Gosh, maybe even OWN some.

Bob, I can't tell you how many dog-hunters I've hunted with down there (that still hunt)...and am related to...and am friends with. And not a single one of them is a "well-to-do business man." Oh, and every one of them is a Florida native. Now look who's making sweeping generalizations.

I think I'll pass on the invite to hunt deer with ya in Florida. Thanks anyway. I've had my share of eye-opening experiences there already while deer hunting. The only hunting I do in Flordia is coyote hunting....in the spring time...while their denning...so all the puppies die...so no more coyotes can eat all the deer...that's why the deer in Florida are dissappearing you know. Them and those black panthers...and UFO's.

Just funnin' ya Bob. I'm sure you're a good fella, even for a cracker. I'm not so bad myself. To know me is to love me. Really.

Transmission discontinued due to lack of interest.
 
Once again I'm not a cracker.. I'm a yankee. I'm not from here. Cracker is different. It implies a native. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Also would you please quote even one sweeping generalization that I've made about you or your family? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

$bob$
 
Edge:

"However,that a group of coyotes WILL KILL MORE THAN THEY NEED FOR THE EXPRESS USE OF FEEDING MOTHERLESS PUPS IS A LOAD OF CRAP."

All I was trying to get across is that killing can and does increase sometimes. Whether or not they eat them. I don't go trap beaver in the summer, I den coyotes. It's what I am paid to do. I have a reasonable grasp on what can and does happen.










Edge:

"If it is required to coddle the ingnorant and the uninformed on this site,I must have missed the memo. "

Not all of us are uniformed, you must have missed that memo.
 
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