Ethics?
- Thread starter Lungbuster
- Start date
Cal,you accused me of saying something I didnt,and doing something I wouldnt,I asked you to point out the infraction,you cant cuz it aint there...
So you den coyotes.Am I to be impressed?An OGorman/Dorn dog finds a den;you gas it,or you dig it up and euthanize.Wow,you're practically a biologist.
If you think denning is indicative of a vast storehouse of coyote knowledge,like I said,it may play to the fans,but not the players.
And just to be clear,and to selfishly point out your obvious lack of reading comprehension skills,I didnt single anyone out with the ignorant or uninformed.If you want to take it personal,you prolly should.
Edge
So you den coyotes.Am I to be impressed?An OGorman/Dorn dog finds a den;you gas it,or you dig it up and euthanize.Wow,you're practically a biologist.
If you think denning is indicative of a vast storehouse of coyote knowledge,like I said,it may play to the fans,but not the players.
And just to be clear,and to selfishly point out your obvious lack of reading comprehension skills,I didnt single anyone out with the ignorant or uninformed.If you want to take it personal,you prolly should.
Edge
Quote:
Further,I am out of this topic,normally I dont get into these tit for tat 3rd grade pi$$ing matches.
While I stand 100% behind what I said;I apologize for taking a good topic down this path.
Edge
I guess I should apologize too... I've been feeling like I was being misquoted and "painted with a broad brush unfairly" and have "tried to set the record straight".
I'm sure that a LOT of PM regulars wish I would just go away... Well I won't but I'll get off this thread. I sincerely apologize to anyone that my long and probably boring messages offended.
My intent was only to defend myself but I guess it wasn't really necessary. Nothing really has changed in the grand scheme of things huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Anyway... I'm off this thread too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
If anyone want's to carry the coyote vs. Florida deer thread any further just email me at bobwmonahan@earthink.net /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
$bob$
Further,I am out of this topic,normally I dont get into these tit for tat 3rd grade pi$$ing matches.
While I stand 100% behind what I said;I apologize for taking a good topic down this path.
Edge
I guess I should apologize too... I've been feeling like I was being misquoted and "painted with a broad brush unfairly" and have "tried to set the record straight".
I'm sure that a LOT of PM regulars wish I would just go away... Well I won't but I'll get off this thread. I sincerely apologize to anyone that my long and probably boring messages offended.
My intent was only to defend myself but I guess it wasn't really necessary. Nothing really has changed in the grand scheme of things huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Anyway... I'm off this thread too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
If anyone want's to carry the coyote vs. Florida deer thread any further just email me at bobwmonahan@earthink.net /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
$bob$
Last edited:
You guys post to fast or I just type to slow. LOL I can’t keep up!!
TOM64 you are a heathen!!! Show me some scientific evidence that AC/DC made a pact with the devil. You are on crack. LOL
Whaknstack You said…. “At any rate, furbearer or not....If it's shot for sport and you like doing it, it's just common sense to lay off during denning season. That's a no-brainer to me.”
Perfect!! That is what 99% of the people on THIS board do!!
Edge you are smoking crack and I think you would charge HELL with a bucket of water. LOL Not me. You said…. “If you could just point out where I said ,or even ALLUDED to the fact that other coyotes wont raise pups, I will address that.” You told me “I dont know where you got that info; but you would be wise to never again believe a word they say.” Now you ask Cal where you said, or even ALLUDED to the fact that other coyotes wont raise pups. Your memory can’t be that short.
You go on to say…. of particular hilarity is the one where the "other" family members will kill more than they can eat to feed the pups. You have just heard from one of the most accomplished and respected denners in the country that it can and does happen. If you haven’t heard of Cal Taylor you live in a cave. Is he smoking crack too? . For the record Cal and O’Gorman just added their names to the list of people I have heard this from. Is that notion still funny to you? LOL
You admittedly believe that a coyotes life goal is to kill more than it can eat so why is it so hard to believe that other family members will kill more than they can eat to feed there pups? Do you really think coyotes set goals?
I never said that another whelping bitch would take care of pups in another’s den. I said that I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members (family members) will some times kill more than what is needed. To feed the pups or out of stress or what ever reason it happins. I mistakenly left out the word family as in family members assuming that it was understood what I meant. It sounds to me like you don’t know if you are coming or going. LOL From your posts it is clear to those of us in the KNOW ZONE that Cal has forgot more about coyotes than you know. It is only right that you step away from this debate. Having a battle of the wits with an unarmed man is a waste of our time. LOL Move along now.
Whaknstack… You want legitimate research because I feel Shooting the coyote for sport has little effect on populations so laying off during denning seasons has little effect on population? I pulled Nevada out of the hat of 50 states because they probably have the most intensive, aggressive and relentless widespread aerial gunning program in the country and average coyote populations here in the west. In Nevada they slaughter coyotes by the thousands so I thought I would dig up what they thought about the subject…. Go here and check out page 44 and page 55. http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nepa/NVpdm.pdf#search='Nevada%20predator'
Between sport hunters and trappers and Nevada’s ADC program they figure they only kill 6 to 11% of the total population in this study. Other studies suggest that you need to kill somewhere along the lines of 75% of the coyotes year after year before you see overall numbers start to decrease for the long term. Eliminate ADC. Eliminate Trappers which kill more coyotes than callers. What percentage is left that you think callers actually take? It would be a hell of a lot less than 6%. Maybe 2%?
Redundancy alert!!! Redundancy alert!!! LOL
I will state again for the record.
Coyote callers don’t even make a scratch in the over all populations period. In Nebraska summertime coyote kills are not even considered in the yearly harvest statistics because the numbers killed by hunters is so low that it is statistically insignificant. It wouldn’t matter one way or another to overall coyote populations if we stopped shooting coyotes in the summer.
The best we can do that is economically feasible is work on local populations in problem areas.
Coyote callers that think they have a tangible impact on pray species are wrong. The percentage they kill is far too small to make an overall difference.
Did I miss anything?
Idhunter You said you have never hunted with another coyote hunter except a few newbies. That tells me you are really not in touch with what coyote hunting and the fur market is all about. The sport hunting community doesn’t understand the BIG picture or at least doesn’t appear too. They loose sight of the fact that far and away the majority of coyotes taken are for their FUR. Trappers kill a whole lot more coyotes than hunters and they do it for the FUR. All the hunters I know in my area do it for the FUR. The greatest majority of coyote kills by people happen in the fall and winter.
Sport hunters that leave them lay are wasting a resource that other hunters or trappers could use. Fur is a resource just like venison. If your logic inspires you to kill a coyote to save a deer for a hunter to shoot and use why can’t you use the same logic and save a coyote that some other people could shoot or trap and use? As long as an animal is being used why should you give one status over another?
The fur industry is huge most states have fur hunting harvesting and trapping organizations. To my knowledge they all promote the maxim utilization of our natural renewable recourse “FUR.” They are also very active in legitimate ADC. It is sporting and recreational to hunt and trap coyotes but it is also responsible and lucrative to harvest harvestable parts of animals. Fur hunters, fur trappers and Legitimate ADC men completely overshadow the pure sport hunting community. The kill for sport and leave em lay crowd are a small minority of over all coyote hunters and trappers.
New sport hunters pick up Predator Xtream mag or log on the Internet and find out how fun it is to call in and kill coyotes. They, like you are for the most part unaware of who kills the most coyotes and for what reasons they kill them. It is for Fur.
The minority of sport hunters in our little niche of the hunting world don’t get the attention of the Fur people because there is plenty of coyotes to go around for every one and that is good. The issue now becomes ethical and how we are perceived as hunters, trappers and sportsmen to the non hunting majority. Non-hunters look upon killing and wasting dimly. The idea of killing, wasting and starving litters of puppies is looked upon with disgust by non-hunters.
We can’t use the argument that we kill and waste one animal to save another because it is not true. Studies have proven that callers don’t make a scratch in overall populations of coyotes and make even a far smaller scratch in the pray that they eat. What they eat is so diverse they don’t have the time or capacity to hurt an overall population of deer.
As hunters we need to have a unified standard of ethics to be accepted as legitimate. My concern is that antis will start using the information that we callers don’t have an impact on coyote populations at all so there is no reason we should kill them at all? That’s a different way to look at it isn’t it? Maybe some day we can only kill coyotes if there is a truly legitimate problem and we may have to apply for permits to take care of these problems. Maybe only licensed professionals will be allowed to take care of these problems? We don’t really know what the future holds for the coyote hunter or trapper but all I can say is that we need to keep our noses clean and show an up most respect for all of the animals we hunt and harvest. If we don’t it will hurt us in the long run.
We have to kill deer and elk to keep their numbers down because coyotes can’t come close to doing it. Predator populations always fallow up pray populations. That is why the pray controls the predators for the most part and not the other way around.
Good hunting.
Q,
TOM64 you are a heathen!!! Show me some scientific evidence that AC/DC made a pact with the devil. You are on crack. LOL
Whaknstack You said…. “At any rate, furbearer or not....If it's shot for sport and you like doing it, it's just common sense to lay off during denning season. That's a no-brainer to me.”
Perfect!! That is what 99% of the people on THIS board do!!
Edge you are smoking crack and I think you would charge HELL with a bucket of water. LOL Not me. You said…. “If you could just point out where I said ,or even ALLUDED to the fact that other coyotes wont raise pups, I will address that.” You told me “I dont know where you got that info; but you would be wise to never again believe a word they say.” Now you ask Cal where you said, or even ALLUDED to the fact that other coyotes wont raise pups. Your memory can’t be that short.
You go on to say…. of particular hilarity is the one where the "other" family members will kill more than they can eat to feed the pups. You have just heard from one of the most accomplished and respected denners in the country that it can and does happen. If you haven’t heard of Cal Taylor you live in a cave. Is he smoking crack too? . For the record Cal and O’Gorman just added their names to the list of people I have heard this from. Is that notion still funny to you? LOL
You admittedly believe that a coyotes life goal is to kill more than it can eat so why is it so hard to believe that other family members will kill more than they can eat to feed there pups? Do you really think coyotes set goals?
I never said that another whelping bitch would take care of pups in another’s den. I said that I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members (family members) will some times kill more than what is needed. To feed the pups or out of stress or what ever reason it happins. I mistakenly left out the word family as in family members assuming that it was understood what I meant. It sounds to me like you don’t know if you are coming or going. LOL From your posts it is clear to those of us in the KNOW ZONE that Cal has forgot more about coyotes than you know. It is only right that you step away from this debate. Having a battle of the wits with an unarmed man is a waste of our time. LOL Move along now.
Whaknstack… You want legitimate research because I feel Shooting the coyote for sport has little effect on populations so laying off during denning seasons has little effect on population? I pulled Nevada out of the hat of 50 states because they probably have the most intensive, aggressive and relentless widespread aerial gunning program in the country and average coyote populations here in the west. In Nevada they slaughter coyotes by the thousands so I thought I would dig up what they thought about the subject…. Go here and check out page 44 and page 55. http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nepa/NVpdm.pdf#search='Nevada%20predator'
Between sport hunters and trappers and Nevada’s ADC program they figure they only kill 6 to 11% of the total population in this study. Other studies suggest that you need to kill somewhere along the lines of 75% of the coyotes year after year before you see overall numbers start to decrease for the long term. Eliminate ADC. Eliminate Trappers which kill more coyotes than callers. What percentage is left that you think callers actually take? It would be a hell of a lot less than 6%. Maybe 2%?
Redundancy alert!!! Redundancy alert!!! LOL
I will state again for the record.
Coyote callers don’t even make a scratch in the over all populations period. In Nebraska summertime coyote kills are not even considered in the yearly harvest statistics because the numbers killed by hunters is so low that it is statistically insignificant. It wouldn’t matter one way or another to overall coyote populations if we stopped shooting coyotes in the summer.
The best we can do that is economically feasible is work on local populations in problem areas.
Coyote callers that think they have a tangible impact on pray species are wrong. The percentage they kill is far too small to make an overall difference.
Did I miss anything?
Idhunter You said you have never hunted with another coyote hunter except a few newbies. That tells me you are really not in touch with what coyote hunting and the fur market is all about. The sport hunting community doesn’t understand the BIG picture or at least doesn’t appear too. They loose sight of the fact that far and away the majority of coyotes taken are for their FUR. Trappers kill a whole lot more coyotes than hunters and they do it for the FUR. All the hunters I know in my area do it for the FUR. The greatest majority of coyote kills by people happen in the fall and winter.
Sport hunters that leave them lay are wasting a resource that other hunters or trappers could use. Fur is a resource just like venison. If your logic inspires you to kill a coyote to save a deer for a hunter to shoot and use why can’t you use the same logic and save a coyote that some other people could shoot or trap and use? As long as an animal is being used why should you give one status over another?
The fur industry is huge most states have fur hunting harvesting and trapping organizations. To my knowledge they all promote the maxim utilization of our natural renewable recourse “FUR.” They are also very active in legitimate ADC. It is sporting and recreational to hunt and trap coyotes but it is also responsible and lucrative to harvest harvestable parts of animals. Fur hunters, fur trappers and Legitimate ADC men completely overshadow the pure sport hunting community. The kill for sport and leave em lay crowd are a small minority of over all coyote hunters and trappers.
New sport hunters pick up Predator Xtream mag or log on the Internet and find out how fun it is to call in and kill coyotes. They, like you are for the most part unaware of who kills the most coyotes and for what reasons they kill them. It is for Fur.
The minority of sport hunters in our little niche of the hunting world don’t get the attention of the Fur people because there is plenty of coyotes to go around for every one and that is good. The issue now becomes ethical and how we are perceived as hunters, trappers and sportsmen to the non hunting majority. Non-hunters look upon killing and wasting dimly. The idea of killing, wasting and starving litters of puppies is looked upon with disgust by non-hunters.
We can’t use the argument that we kill and waste one animal to save another because it is not true. Studies have proven that callers don’t make a scratch in overall populations of coyotes and make even a far smaller scratch in the pray that they eat. What they eat is so diverse they don’t have the time or capacity to hurt an overall population of deer.
As hunters we need to have a unified standard of ethics to be accepted as legitimate. My concern is that antis will start using the information that we callers don’t have an impact on coyote populations at all so there is no reason we should kill them at all? That’s a different way to look at it isn’t it? Maybe some day we can only kill coyotes if there is a truly legitimate problem and we may have to apply for permits to take care of these problems. Maybe only licensed professionals will be allowed to take care of these problems? We don’t really know what the future holds for the coyote hunter or trapper but all I can say is that we need to keep our noses clean and show an up most respect for all of the animals we hunt and harvest. If we don’t it will hurt us in the long run.
We have to kill deer and elk to keep their numbers down because coyotes can’t come close to doing it. Predator populations always fallow up pray populations. That is why the pray controls the predators for the most part and not the other way around.
Good hunting.
Q,
Q,
Quote...
"Idhunter You said you have never hunted with another coyote hunter except a few newbies. That tells me you are really not in touch with what coyote hunting and the fur market is all about. The sport hunting community doesn’t understand the BIG picture or at least doesn’t appear too. They loose sight of the fact that far and away the majority of coyotes taken are for their FUR. Trappers kill a whole lot more coyotes than hunters and they do it for the FUR. All the hunters I know in my area do it for the FUR. The greatest majority of coyote kills by people happen in the fall and winter.
Sport hunters that leave them lay are wasting a resource that other hunters or trappers could use. Fur is a resource just like venison. If your logic inspires you to kill a coyote to save a deer for a hunter to shoot and use why can’t you use the same logic and save a coyote that some other people could shoot or trap and use? As long as an animal is being used why should you give one status over another?"
If you had read all my messages you would know that I DID sell fox for fur in Illinois and met several that sold coyotes for fur in Colorado. The prices were just to low in Colorado to capture my interest.
If you want the fur on these Florida coyotes why then you should just come get them. I'll start skinnin' 'em for you. I can't get a fur buyer to give me a red cent for 'em.
Also... Your comparisons of professional trappers to recreational coyote hunters doesn't impress me. Just because I'm not a pro trapper doesn't make me an idiot. I'm not a pro trapper because I don't want to be one. Get it?
I'm perfectly happy shooting an occaisional coyote by calling him in or spot and stalk or by luck when deer hunting. I'd like to do it better than now but that's it.
I'm here to learn like most people but your "holier than thou" attitude is a real turn off. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
$bob$
Quote...
"Idhunter You said you have never hunted with another coyote hunter except a few newbies. That tells me you are really not in touch with what coyote hunting and the fur market is all about. The sport hunting community doesn’t understand the BIG picture or at least doesn’t appear too. They loose sight of the fact that far and away the majority of coyotes taken are for their FUR. Trappers kill a whole lot more coyotes than hunters and they do it for the FUR. All the hunters I know in my area do it for the FUR. The greatest majority of coyote kills by people happen in the fall and winter.
Sport hunters that leave them lay are wasting a resource that other hunters or trappers could use. Fur is a resource just like venison. If your logic inspires you to kill a coyote to save a deer for a hunter to shoot and use why can’t you use the same logic and save a coyote that some other people could shoot or trap and use? As long as an animal is being used why should you give one status over another?"
If you had read all my messages you would know that I DID sell fox for fur in Illinois and met several that sold coyotes for fur in Colorado. The prices were just to low in Colorado to capture my interest.
If you want the fur on these Florida coyotes why then you should just come get them. I'll start skinnin' 'em for you. I can't get a fur buyer to give me a red cent for 'em.
Also... Your comparisons of professional trappers to recreational coyote hunters doesn't impress me. Just because I'm not a pro trapper doesn't make me an idiot. I'm not a pro trapper because I don't want to be one. Get it?
I'm perfectly happy shooting an occaisional coyote by calling him in or spot and stalk or by luck when deer hunting. I'd like to do it better than now but that's it.
I'm here to learn like most people but your "holier than thou" attitude is a real turn off. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
$bob$
On another note Idhunter why don’t you contact George Dykhuizen. He is the president of the Florida Trappers and Fur Hunters Association at 941-697-7634
If you are willing to skin them for me then skin them for George. He and his organization along with many many more are working hard every day to help keep your coyote hunting privileges alive.
Good hunting.
Q,
If you are willing to skin them for me then skin them for George. He and his organization along with many many more are working hard every day to help keep your coyote hunting privileges alive.
Good hunting.
Q,
Quote:
If you do not like my attitude that is fine. You are probably among the majority there. LOL If you don’t agree with me on my facts or opinions let me know. I will gladly debate you.
Good hunting.
Q,
Q,
If you sincerely believe that the majority here doesn't like your attitude then why are you here? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
$bob$
If you do not like my attitude that is fine. You are probably among the majority there. LOL If you don’t agree with me on my facts or opinions let me know. I will gladly debate you.
Good hunting.
Q,
Q,
If you sincerely believe that the majority here doesn't like your attitude then why are you here? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
$bob$
Thanks for the information about George. I'll call him but I've never heard of anyone wanting to buy Florida coyote furs and I imagine that he's trying to preserved trappers rights rather than hunters rights.
I am actively involved in attempting to preserve Florida hunters rights already.
$bob$
I am actively involved in attempting to preserve Florida hunters rights already.
$bob$
Who else is going to keep fellas like you in line? LOL I have tons of friends here and we don’t always have to agree on everything. I think the world of Jay and Byron and others. I even like Redfrog. We have flair ups every year over this subject. I think last year BigC was ready to kill me but we have both settled down now and can communicate. If you decide to stick around you and I will have a lot in common as well. This subject is the only one that brings out my bad side. LOL I am really a nice guy ya know. Just ask me. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Good hunting.
Q,
bigc
New member
Now Q, how the hell am I supposed to remember all the way back to last year? I have no clue what you are talking about
As for scientific proof about AC/DC, just play the Highway to hell backwards on your phonograph and it says "highway straight to hell"!
Take it easy my brother!
C
As for scientific proof about AC/DC, just play the Highway to hell backwards on your phonograph and it says "highway straight to hell"!
Take it easy my brother!
C
Lungbuster
New member
Wow!
I'm sorry I got this post started. I have only been here for a few months so I didn't know about the "great spring debate". Although I would have to admit it has been quite entertaining!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q, do you have some kind of virus? Everytime you type an apostrophe, some funky numbers come up.
R Buker, sorry to hear about your Wiener dogs. I have one too. I was just outside watching him take a crap and imagining what I would do if a coyote came in and tried to snatch him up. The dummy would probably try to fight the coyote, he thinks he is 10 feet tall and bullet proof. He beats up on my female german sheppard all the time and even though he is still recovering from a concousion, he struts around the house like he is some big bad a$$.
Thanks everyone for your replies. Again I wasn't trying to stir the pot, I was just curious.
I'm sorry I got this post started. I have only been here for a few months so I didn't know about the "great spring debate". Although I would have to admit it has been quite entertaining!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q, do you have some kind of virus? Everytime you type an apostrophe, some funky numbers come up.
R Buker, sorry to hear about your Wiener dogs. I have one too. I was just outside watching him take a crap and imagining what I would do if a coyote came in and tried to snatch him up. The dummy would probably try to fight the coyote, he thinks he is 10 feet tall and bullet proof. He beats up on my female german sheppard all the time and even though he is still recovering from a concousion, he struts around the house like he is some big bad a$$.
Thanks everyone for your replies. Again I wasn't trying to stir the pot, I was just curious.
Lungbuster
New member
concousion = concossion? I think.
Well this sure has been an interesting read. I'm sure glad a lot of you folks quit hunting in March! Just leaves more for me to shoot.
As far as "ethics" are concerned, what ethic? The presumed
pups in the den dying 'cause someone killed their mother?
Let me pass you a kleenex tissue to dry your weeping eyes.
Those "pups" would otherwise grow up and do what they do:
prey on other animals. Regardless if their prey is livestock
or game animal, coyotes in the lower 48 take their toll. Including baby humans!
The coyote is extremely adaptable to any environment, whether its the foothills of the Sierra, along the Great Divide, or in your neighborhood. And all the 'hunting' of them, along with those who prefer poison, and/or traps, their numbers have not dimenished one bit! Just the opposite. Rabbits could learn from coyotes how to reproduce.
I primarily hunt them for their fur, but I rarely pass on
an opportunity to shoot one regardless of the condition of it's fur, or time of year. Seems like the only time I won't
shoot them is if I'm in a state that has wolves. Coyotes
being a major competitor of the wolf. But thats a another can of worms. Fortunately, the Alaskan DFG has set liberal bag limits for wolves in Alaska.
As far as "ethics" are concerned, what ethic? The presumed
pups in the den dying 'cause someone killed their mother?
Let me pass you a kleenex tissue to dry your weeping eyes.
Those "pups" would otherwise grow up and do what they do:
prey on other animals. Regardless if their prey is livestock
or game animal, coyotes in the lower 48 take their toll. Including baby humans!
The coyote is extremely adaptable to any environment, whether its the foothills of the Sierra, along the Great Divide, or in your neighborhood. And all the 'hunting' of them, along with those who prefer poison, and/or traps, their numbers have not dimenished one bit! Just the opposite. Rabbits could learn from coyotes how to reproduce.
I primarily hunt them for their fur, but I rarely pass on
an opportunity to shoot one regardless of the condition of it's fur, or time of year. Seems like the only time I won't
shoot them is if I'm in a state that has wolves. Coyotes
being a major competitor of the wolf. But thats a another can of worms. Fortunately, the Alaskan DFG has set liberal bag limits for wolves in Alaska.