God or Evolution

kirby, getting 16 years in this April, PM me sometime and we can chat about the job and what ever else. I don't know I could handle life outside the firehouse, it is about like all these knuckleheads on PM (just a saying), life wouldn't be the same without'em /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
GOD is the creator. GOD rules the world. if you would like to know more i can hook you up with a very educated man to better explain it than i can.
 
Scott,

I wish you well on the rest of your career, take care of your grunts. It's been the best job, I've ever had. But I can't wait for my last alarm, eh.


Everett
 
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Yeah, this is another conversation that is impossible to bring to a logical end. True Science can't speak on the past because the past isn't observable, and observation is a requirement of true science. (Didn't hear that when you did the origins segment of your Biology class in College, did you?!?!)

However here are some thoughts...

"1)If a just, fair God exists, why do tiny children die of wicked diseases?"

We live in a fallen/corrupt world and are born into sin physically and spiritually. In the very same context, is physical death, then, necessarily the ultimate evil, or is it just a transition?

"2)If God has been here all along, why were and are millions of people around this world ignorant of his existence and your "one true path?" "

As to the existance of God, they're not. Natural revelation, as kirby described in "infinate order" points man to God. Man's need for God and spiritual hunger for Him leads to the rest.




See, this is why I can't get into religion, regardless of the existence of a God of some kind. You didn't really answer these questions, any more than the theory of evolution answers questions about our origins. I find the very concept of "original sin" personally disgusting. I cannot agree with the idea that my children are guilty of terrible crimes simply because they are born. I refuse to buy into that theory, just as you refuse to buy into an idea that they're innocent. We have only to disagree. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Millions (even billions) aren't ignorant of your Christian God you say? That's absurd. Have you been overseas? Have you seen other cultures that have never been exposed to Christianity? I have. They have no idea of the supposed existence of our culture's God. By your assessment these people are doomed to eternity in hell because they'll never have the opportunity to convert. They have never and will never have any knowledge of the existence (or non-existence) of God. Nature reveals other gods to other cultures. Your revelations have come in the form of Christianity. Others' revelations come in the form of Hinduism, or Janism, or Islam, Paganism, or even Scientology. Man's need for a god, a craving for the idea of something bigger and better, the terror at believing there's nothing after death, and hundreds of other factors conspire to drive man to create religion, perhaps even to create the concept of God.

Just as you can't be convinced to believe in evolution, I can't be convinced to believe in something intangible, something other men created (in my estimation) to use as a mechanism to control me. Like I said in my original post, we'll never agree. I should know by now to keep myself out of these debates because they have too much in common with pi$$ing up a rope. We never get anything out of these arguments (which they often become) except long threads and hurt feelings. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif All we can do is strive to understand that we have differing points of view. I may not believe in religion, but I don't worry about it and try to convert religious people to non-religious status. I go on living my life obeying the rules of my conscience. I only hope that others can do the same.
 
DesertRam,

I have read this thread and will say overall my beliefs parallel yours.I am 46yrs old and God has never communicated w/me.--- I know -i know it's a faith thing.
I have read most of the bible and watched programs on tv to help me understand it to no avail.From what i gather it's not suppose to be understood like 1+1=2.
Everyone has some good points/opinions that i'm glad to get to read.
Here's my thoughts that i doubt will ever change "" I DON'T """KNOW""" AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE.
If you faithfully know that you know more power to you.
I haven't seen where the bible does anything but good so i am all for it.But,like DesertRam i don't need to be told by a book to do the right thing.
I am thankful that i have goodness in my heart. If there is a God who is understanding -he'll understand why i feel this way.Mike
 
Here's my take on this subject. Even as a youth, W/O any proof, or being "force-fed" religion. I believed there was a higher power[never did believe in "randomness"].

When I was 10yrs old, I seen a spirit 10' away "non-threatening"[I know...hard to believe, eh]. Scared the tar out of me!. I was actually froze stiff, with fear. What was it, & why did I see it? Don't know,[Frankly, I wished I hadn't].

Again, it happened when I was 18 "pure evil" 3' away in my face. I was froze stiff, with terror.

Again when I was 26..."peaceful" a little boy, looking at me 5' away.

I have no answers as to "why". I only know, what I've seen[eyes wide open, I assure you]. Was I special to witness these things...No. Well then why? I have no clue??.

Last April, I had a dream. Jesus healed a lepor woman in front of me. Then I "awoke", yelling his name. I couldn't stop. I was completely paralyzed [wide awake]. The only thing, I could move, was my head. I felt like, every hair on my body was being mildly shocked.

This lasted for 45 seconds. Then it quit suddenly....gone. Total peace & warmth, came over my body. The only time in my life, I ever felt "total peace".
 
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John chapter 1

Jesus Christ is Lord /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif

aaron
 
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I watch any show, I can on "Near Death Experiences". Never fails, there is always atleast one-debunker[Athiest-scientist]. That "theorizes" this is merely the human body's reaction to pain/dying process. Thus releasing, Endorphins[sp?] into the blood stream. An answer for everything, LOL!

Did a code[CPR] on an elderly man, many moons ago[I've done a boatload]. Spoke with his daughter a couple yrs later. She told me, "Her Dad said, "He went through a dark tunnel & went to "Heaven". Was told, "it wasn't his time yet", & sent back. He regained a pulse on-scene .

One of my sister's had one, as well.

Both of these people were changed for life.




Yeah, I don't doubt those experiences nor do I doubt those that you re-iterate later in this thread. Members of my family have had undeniabley true "supernatural" experiences.

But , How do you think that supports the existence of a god as commonly accepted by Christian tradition? These experiences are not solely the property of Christians, you know! People of all races, religions and beliefs have had them. And, I have no doubt they are real!

But (again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) In my mind this certainly supports the idea of a dimension to existence or A life after death that we do not understand.
 
i agree with DesertRam whole heartedly. Don't mean to hurt any feelings or cause any arguements, but there are just too many things that don't add up for me. Moses separating the seas? the laws of physics say it's impossible. the burning bush that was later observed to have suffered no damage? Again, against the laws of physics.

i beleive in evolution and the survival of the fittest. i believe that a species will change and adapt to its environment. I believe that a single species, when placed in two different environments, will, after a long enough period of time, evolve into two different species. i do not believe neanderthals were people with arthritis.

As for the earth being 6000 years old as someone said, i respectfully disagree. The earth's geologic record proves the earth is millions (billions) of years old. Alternating layers of sediment, which were laid down in various geological circumstances, give a record of the earths history. Continental drift has been happening for hundreds of millions of years.

Again, this is only what i believe. Did not mean to insult anyone and do not want this to escalate into an arguement. Just a friendly disagreement.

travis
 
Travis, I don't think your opinion is going to "upset" anyone. This thread has been extremely civil, considering the potential of the content. Just look at the contention and violence this same subject has been experiencing in the "legal" system. This says a lot about the quality of the people who post here. Others could learn a lot about "respect" by reading how we discuss differing sides of a very personal subject. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

One point about your post, though. You doubt the validity of the miracles you mention, as they defy the laws of physics. Is that not what a "miracle" is? After all, does not the very existence of God defy all science "known to man"?
 
There is an old saying. "You can not see the forest, for the trees". This saying tells me, anyway. That there are many "truths" right in front of us. Just that many, are looking right past it.

Physics, thats an interesting aspect of what "man" knows. I've seen accidents, where people have walked away. Unscathed. When "physic's" said, they should be dead. I' guess scientists...refer "those" as freak incidents. Yah, ok.

I've been on other minor vehicle wrecks were people were stone dead, go figure.

What do I know, but a grain of sand, in the desert of truth.
I have no answers..."truths" to anything. Other than what I've experienced. Good or bad, it has changed what I know or believe.

Finally, these experiences have made me not fear the unknown, death.

On another note; Let's talk about coyote hybrids or coydogs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Carbon dating is false? Neanderthals are homo sapiens with osteoarthritis? Humans lived during the same time as dinosaurs? The Earth is only 6,000 years old?

You guys better tell the scientists they were wrong!

Seriously, don't say this stuff if you can't prove it. Scientists are not trying to disprove religion. Everything doesn't have to be some huge conspiracy. That's the problem with the internet, anyone can say whatever they want and they don't have to back it up.

Gravity is a theory, just like evolution. All you have to do is jump off of your soapbox to prove that theory!
 
The last time we got into a religious debate here, I had to thank all the participants for their civility and open attitudes toward discussion. I must do so again. Thanks guys for keeping this so friendly. In my experience, religious debates usually get ugly, with nobody better off for them. I glad we here can respectfully disagree on religion, and still agree that coyotes do indeed need to be called in and shot dead.

Thanks, and good calling to you all!!!!
 
I went coyote hunting for a couple of days, so now is catch on PM reading time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Trust me when I say that I'm not out to convince anyone to have the same beliefs that I do /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. I will go even further and say to everyone, don't take my word as "truth" in any way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. I'm just an ordinary guy like everyone else. I can make (and do) mistakes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif. Having said that, all I would ask, is that each of you set aside a little time and read a Bible. I would encourage you to read the Book of John /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. Thats all. Ask of God, even if you may believe He doesn't exist, to show you if there is any truth in that one book. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
I read this thread with interest and told myself not to get involved this time. So much for following my own advise, LOL.

I largely agree with NASA. The basic existence of God does not have anything, one way or another, to do with the Theory of Evolution of Species. God, IMHO, could have designed evolution as a mechanism for His creation, He is after all God, and can do what He wants, how He wants. Many scientists, especially quantum physicists, believe that the universe must have been created (by God). They are made up of many religions (and none).

It is called the "theory" instead of the "law" of evolution because it cannot be proven and verified by repeatable experimentation (by it's very nature).

The term "theory", within the scientific method, is much more stringently applied than in general usage. For it to rise to the level of "theory" (instead of hypothesis), it must fit observable facts (among other criteria). As those facts are gathered, a (scientific) theory is either modified to fit the new facts, or is discarded. The "Theory of Evolution" fits these criteria within the scientific method. The "theory" of Creationism, does not. Within the scientific method, Creationism would, at best, be called an "hypothesis".

Don't confuse the scientific definition of "theory" with general usage. Einstein's Theory of Relativity will always be a "theory" and not a "law" because it is not provable within the stringent rules laid out in the scientific method. There is no doubt, however, that it is valid.

The basic "Theory of Evolution" (TE) postulates that genetic changes (mutations) are selected by nature because they are more adaptive to circumstances and so are more successful. If the changes are radical enough that the new offspring cannot breed viably with the old (but can with each other), then they are a different species, by definition.

We know that mutations happen all the time and observe them regularly, we usually refer to them as birth defects. We also know that these mutations are almost never heritable and in fact that radical (enough) mutation will almost always be accompanied by either sterility or death. It's in the "almost" that the TE resides.

Statistically, we would have to be able to observe hundreds of thousands (or maybe millions) of generations of a species in order to "prove" the TE and change the designation to "law". The practical impossibility of the the time frames involved, means the TE will always be "theory" and not "law".

HOWEVER, because of the accelerated time frame of the "birth" of generations, we have been able to observe exactly that mechanism with viruses, and have watched them change into something completely different. This is not considered "proof" by the scientific community, only because viruses do not technically adhere to the "definition of species". It must be considered as very strong evidence though, that the exact mechanism, postulated in TE long before we knew of DNA, has now been observed in nature.

I have read the "evidence" of the (mostly Christian) creationists, but it is usually nothing more than an attempt to debunk TE, not a presentation of testable evidence.

It usually starts with an accounting of the flaws inherent in carbon 14 dating. All measurements are inaccurate to one degree or another. The inaccuracies in carbon 14 dating are understood and accounted for by any competent lab doing the testing, and have been often verified by other methods. When several different methods of measurement correlate, scientists generally accept that it must be true, within a margin of error.

The biblical flood and planet-wide cloud cover, is often cited as the reason for the inherent inaccuracy of carbon 14 dating in particular. This ignores the fact that there is no geological evidence of a planet-wide inundation 3500yrs (or ever) ago.

It is also fact (and is ignored) that a planet-wide cloud cover would have changed the albedo (reflectivity) of the earth in such a way that pre-flood biblical times would have existed in an ice age. We know this is true because, besides geological evidence (NASA's meteor strike), we have well documented records of what happens to the climate when the albedo changes to an even lesser degree. Look up what happened to the climate in Europe when Krakatoa blew, thousands of miles away, in 1883.

I could go on. Why do we find actual bones of prehistorical (recent) animals, mammoths, aurochs, saber-tooth tigers, crocodiles, etc., but all the "bones" we find of dinosaurs are actually reverse images of bone, made of stone? Could it be because it takes millions of years for the minerals that leach into the interstitial spaces in bones, to turn to stone?

All religions claim that their "book" is the "truth" (I read the KJB). No religion claims it has in it's possession, any document actually written by God. Even the teachings of Jesus, relatively recent history, are accounts of what he said, written by others.

I believe that all religion's books are an attempt to know God, inspired, sometimes, by God, in a way that the writer understood, but still written by a flawed human being. They may be inaccurate in particular detail, and still be "Truth" in overall context.

I found it instructive that the Dali Llama, when asked about conversion to his brand of Buddhism, said that people should find enlightenment in the religion they were raised with, and not be looking to others.

Just my $1.02 worth.
 
I hate it when people try to shove their beliefs down the throats of every one around them. It makes me think they are trying to overcome their own doubts. However when someone wants to politely share their views and let others make up their own minds, I think that person has a strong conviction. Whether I agree or not I respect that conviction.
 
Listen carefully.......THERE IS NO GOD!
If there was, I'd like to personally invite him to float down out of his lofty perch, so I can give him a proper [beeep] whippin!
As was mentioned, with the sheer number of children afflicted with horrible maladies, a world where so many predators abuse and molest children and innocent people suffer, makes me want to puke when I hear the followers blubber about gods will........
 
has anyone here read the bible. has any one hear ever looked up. has any one hear evey looked at what they are hunting. so powerful and it just happend? why ar'nt things still evolving? i know why do you?
 
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