Handgun question: Would you rather have.....
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Sfsmedic
New member
Originally Posted By: SmokelessWell.... our special ops in the military have gone back to the 45. If that means anything. The 9mm just doesn't have the stopping power. So says our fighting elite.
I would also look for the .40 S&W or the 10mm all available in the 1911 frame.
This is an unfair statement because it on,y refers to ball ammo. It's a whole different ball game when we start discussing modern ammunition designed to stop human targets.
I shoot a 1911 for competition and I love the platform personally. But I also shoot an M&P in 9mm. I carry a 357sig chambered sig p229 for daily carry but we are looking at going to 9mm and I am fine with that. My personal opinion is that both rounds using modern ammo will do similar damage when discussing a human target. The 9mm does have the ability for faster follow up shots due to less recoil but recoil management can be learned easy enough through practice. I am of the mind that you should always have a second mag on you anyhow so I think either way your good. Which gun are you able to run easier and fits you better is how I would end up deciding on that decision.
I would also look for the .40 S&W or the 10mm all available in the 1911 frame.
This is an unfair statement because it on,y refers to ball ammo. It's a whole different ball game when we start discussing modern ammunition designed to stop human targets.
I shoot a 1911 for competition and I love the platform personally. But I also shoot an M&P in 9mm. I carry a 357sig chambered sig p229 for daily carry but we are looking at going to 9mm and I am fine with that. My personal opinion is that both rounds using modern ammo will do similar damage when discussing a human target. The 9mm does have the ability for faster follow up shots due to less recoil but recoil management can be learned easy enough through practice. I am of the mind that you should always have a second mag on you anyhow so I think either way your good. Which gun are you able to run easier and fits you better is how I would end up deciding on that decision.
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Smokeless
New member
Originally Posted By: SfsmedicOriginally Posted By: SmokelessWell.... our special ops in the military have gone back to the 45. If that means anything. The 9mm just doesn't have the stopping power. So says our fighting elite.
I would also look for the .40 S&W or the 10mm all available in the 1911 frame.
This is an unfair statement because it on,y refers to ball ammo. It's a whole different ball game when we start discussing modern ammunition designed to stop human targets.
I shoot a 1911 for competition and I love the platform personally. But I also shoot an M&P in 9mm. I carry a 357sig chambered sig p229 for daily carry but we are looking at going to 9mm and I am fine with that. My personal opinion is that both rounds using modern ammo will do similar damage when discussing a human target. The 9mm does have the ability for faster follow up shots due to less recoil but recoil management can be learned easy enough through practice. I am of the mind that you should always have a second mag on you anyhow so I think either way your good. Which gun are you able to run easier and fits you better is how I would end up deciding on that decision.
If a little does a little good. Then a lot will do a lot of good. To coin a phrase.
Whatever the 9 will do with modern bullets, the 45 will do better with modern bullets. Period.
I would also look for the .40 S&W or the 10mm all available in the 1911 frame.
This is an unfair statement because it on,y refers to ball ammo. It's a whole different ball game when we start discussing modern ammunition designed to stop human targets.
I shoot a 1911 for competition and I love the platform personally. But I also shoot an M&P in 9mm. I carry a 357sig chambered sig p229 for daily carry but we are looking at going to 9mm and I am fine with that. My personal opinion is that both rounds using modern ammo will do similar damage when discussing a human target. The 9mm does have the ability for faster follow up shots due to less recoil but recoil management can be learned easy enough through practice. I am of the mind that you should always have a second mag on you anyhow so I think either way your good. Which gun are you able to run easier and fits you better is how I would end up deciding on that decision.
If a little does a little good. Then a lot will do a lot of good. To coin a phrase.
Whatever the 9 will do with modern bullets, the 45 will do better with modern bullets. Period.
FairChase93
Active member
7 rounds of 45 everyday all day. The only reason I feel this way is because I have complete and utter confidence in myself with a full frame 1911 chambered in 45acp. I have shot many different makes of full size 1911s and have always been able to be fast and accurate with them. My current 1911 is a Springfield Armory Mil-spec, I only have about a 1000 rounds through it at the moment but in those 1000 rounds there has not been one hiccup with the action at all no jams or the like. I have spent time with Glocks, Sig P226, and S&W M&P as well but I am just not as comfortable with them and do not have the confidence I do with 1911 platform. Granted this has all been in practice or the occasional varmint walk about and it's hard to say how myself or anyone else is going to behave and react in an actual defensive situation. But I'd like to think I'm up to the challenge should I ever need to be and want a 1911 in my hand.
Varminterror
New member
Silly rabbit, real guns only hold 6....
CatShooter
New member
You guys that are claiming that bullet design has somehow made the 9mm equat to the .357 Magnum or 45 ACP, have forgotten that the same bullet advances have also been applied to the 357 Magnum and 45 ACP...
... moving both of them up the lethality ladder. The 9mm will never be equal to either the 357 Magnum or the 45 ACP - both of which turn out a hellova lot more energy, and can deliver it with heavier bullets that expand to larger diameters.
As to whether you need 15 rounds for self defense - if you find yourself up against that many armed BGs and you are NOT an on duty LE, then your situational awareness skills really suck, and you need a course (or three) in how not to become a victim.
I carry both 9mm (Browning HP) and 1911s in 45 ACP. I use the best bullets I can get.
... moving both of them up the lethality ladder. The 9mm will never be equal to either the 357 Magnum or the 45 ACP - both of which turn out a hellova lot more energy, and can deliver it with heavier bullets that expand to larger diameters.
As to whether you need 15 rounds for self defense - if you find yourself up against that many armed BGs and you are NOT an on duty LE, then your situational awareness skills really suck, and you need a course (or three) in how not to become a victim.
I carry both 9mm (Browning HP) and 1911s in 45 ACP. I use the best bullets I can get.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
I'm am just not a 9mm fan and there are many other options out there.
LOVE my .38 Super. It's my daily carry gun when I can wear enough clothes to conceal it. Pics are before changing grips and a few other things. 1911s are just plain reliable and actually are not bad to carry with the proper holster.
I'm am just not a 9mm fan and there are many other options out there.
LOVE my .38 Super. It's my daily carry gun when I can wear enough clothes to conceal it. Pics are before changing grips and a few other things. 1911s are just plain reliable and actually are not bad to carry with the proper holster.
Sfsmedic
New member
Originally Posted By: FairChase937 rounds of 45 everyday all day. The only reason I feel this way is because I have complete and utter confidence in myself with a full frame 1911 chambered in 45acp. I have shot many different makes of full size 1911s and have always been able to be fast and accurate with them. My current 1911 is a Springfield Armory Mil-spec, I only have about a 1000 rounds through it at the moment but in those 1000 rounds there has not been one hiccup with the action at all no jams or the like. I have spent time with Glocks, Sig P226, and S&W M&P as well but I am just not as comfortable with them and do not have the confidence I do with 1911 platform. Granted this has all been in practice or the occasional varmint walk about and it's hard to say how myself or anyone else is going to behave and react in an actual defensive situation. But I'd like to think I'm up to the challenge should I ever need to be and want a 1911 in my hand.
Best answer yet. Because you talk about your skill and what your comfortable with.
As for the bullet design comment of since the 9mm is better the 45 is better. You're right but there is a maximum threshold. It's called dead. If all three are performing the dead line for instance, you don't get points for more dead.
The point is either bullet will do it now days. If you aren't comfortable with a 45 than fear not a 9mm will definitely do the job. Like I said my department is probably going 9mm. I carry one off duty with confidence but what I didn't mention is we aren't allowed to carry 1911s (dumb policy) or that is what id carry because the platform of a 1911 is my personal preference and it's what I'm most confident at.
Some other info I think is relevant. In California home invasion robbery happens often. Usually 2-4 attackers. We are taught shoot to the ground or failure drills. Even if not then a double tap is commonly taught. That's 2-3 rounds with 2-4 people. That is 4-12 shots. That type of info does weigh on my mind also.
Best answer yet. Because you talk about your skill and what your comfortable with.
As for the bullet design comment of since the 9mm is better the 45 is better. You're right but there is a maximum threshold. It's called dead. If all three are performing the dead line for instance, you don't get points for more dead.
The point is either bullet will do it now days. If you aren't comfortable with a 45 than fear not a 9mm will definitely do the job. Like I said my department is probably going 9mm. I carry one off duty with confidence but what I didn't mention is we aren't allowed to carry 1911s (dumb policy) or that is what id carry because the platform of a 1911 is my personal preference and it's what I'm most confident at.
Some other info I think is relevant. In California home invasion robbery happens often. Usually 2-4 attackers. We are taught shoot to the ground or failure drills. Even if not then a double tap is commonly taught. That's 2-3 rounds with 2-4 people. That is 4-12 shots. That type of info does weigh on my mind also.
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Squeeze
New member
I shoot competitively with both 9mm and 45 Auto. With practice,
the difference in shot string times is fractions of a second,
or maybe a second, for 10 rounds, with the 9mm usually being
the shortest times. With good shot placement, under pressure,
one will never see 10 rounds fired.
shot placement is king, and destructive energy, and mass, is
queen. So shoot what you hit best with, under pressure, and
get the best ammo you can find for your choice.
On the topic of destructive power, testing with barriers, and
ballistic gel, only tells part of the story. What is more
likely to break a bone? A 115-147 gr. slug, or a 185-230 gr.
slug? Breaking bones is stopping power. The heavier the
bullet, the more likely the bone will break.
Me personally, I have to answer neither. I carry a Glock 27,
40 S&W, 10+1 capacity, for CC, and either a Glock 20(10mm
15+1) or a Glock 21(45 Auto 13+1) for open carry. I practice
like my life depends on them, so I am not worried about
hits under pressure, or recoil recovery. What ever one
chooses, one has to look in the mirror, and ask, "Do I run
and shoot through some quasi-real SD situations, for
practice?". If the answer is, "No", then it really doesn't
matter which you pick.
Squeeze
CatShooter
New member
If you can't make up your mind between a 9mm and a 45 ACP, then shoot a 10mm and have the bestest of both worlds.
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
I'm am just not a 9mm fan and there are many other options out there.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
I'm am just not a 9mm fan and there are many other options out there.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
Hooked
New member
Originally Posted By: Squeeze
I shoot competitively with both 9mm and 45 Auto. With practice,
the difference in shot string times is fractions of a second,
or maybe a second, for 10 rounds, with the 9mm usually being
the shortest times. With good shot placement, under pressure,
one will never see 10 rounds fired.
I agree with
shot placement is king, and destructive energy, and mass, is
queen. So shoot what you hit best with, under pressure, and
get the best ammo you can find for your choice.
On the topic of destructive power, testing with barriers, and
ballistic gel, only tells part of the story. What is more
likely to break a bone? A 115-147 gr. slug, or a 185-230 gr.
slug? Breaking bones is stopping power. The heavier the
bullet, the more likely the bone will break.
Me personally, I have to answer neither. I carry a Glock 27,
40 S&W, 10+1 capacity, for CC, and either a Glock 20(10mm
15+1) or a Glock 21(45 Auto 13+1) for open carry. I practice
like my life depends on them, so I am not worried about
hits under pressure, or recoil recovery. What ever one
chooses, one has to look in the mirror, and ask, "Do I run
and shoot through some quasi-real SD situations, for
practice?". If the answer is, "No", then it really doesn't
matter which you pick.
Squeeze
I`m not competitive, nor do I practice that much, but can appreciate the `bottom line`, good point you make here.
I shoot competitively with both 9mm and 45 Auto. With practice,
the difference in shot string times is fractions of a second,
or maybe a second, for 10 rounds, with the 9mm usually being
the shortest times. With good shot placement, under pressure,
one will never see 10 rounds fired.
shot placement is king, and destructive energy, and mass, is
queen. So shoot what you hit best with, under pressure, and
get the best ammo you can find for your choice.
On the topic of destructive power, testing with barriers, and
ballistic gel, only tells part of the story. What is more
likely to break a bone? A 115-147 gr. slug, or a 185-230 gr.
slug? Breaking bones is stopping power. The heavier the
bullet, the more likely the bone will break.
Me personally, I have to answer neither. I carry a Glock 27,
40 S&W, 10+1 capacity, for CC, and either a Glock 20(10mm
15+1) or a Glock 21(45 Auto 13+1) for open carry. I practice
like my life depends on them, so I am not worried about
hits under pressure, or recoil recovery. What ever one
chooses, one has to look in the mirror, and ask, "Do I run
and shoot through some quasi-real SD situations, for
practice?". If the answer is, "No", then it really doesn't
matter which you pick.
Squeeze
I`m not competitive, nor do I practice that much, but can appreciate the `bottom line`, good point you make here.
I was looking at new concealed carry pistols a few weeks ago, and trying to decide this very question. I had a 9 I've been carrying for quite awhile, but I've always wanted a 45. I asked 6 LEO's what their opinion was on a self defense cartridge. 3 highway patrolmen, 3 local policemen. Here's what struck me as being odd. All 3 patrolmen said to get a 45. All 3 local police said to get a 9. Is there something in the way their training differs that would cause the difference?
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: pwhunterI was looking at new concealed carry pistols a few weeks ago, and trying to decide this very question. I had a 9 I've been carrying for quite awhile, but I've always wanted a 45. I asked 6 LEO's what their opinion was on a self defense cartridge. 3 highway patrolmen, 3 local policemen. Here's what struck me as being odd. All 3 patrolmen said to get a 45. All 3 local police said to get a 9. Is there something in the way their training differs that would cause the difference?
First, many cops don't know enough about firearms to be giving advise, average military dude is in the same boat. Traditionally the Highway Patrol is more concerned with shooting through auto body metal and glass than a muni officer. That isn't a training issue but a situational one. The funny thing about the advise you received is that the higher velocity 9mm usually has superior barrier penetration than the wider and slower .45 does. Back to my opening statement...
First, many cops don't know enough about firearms to be giving advise, average military dude is in the same boat. Traditionally the Highway Patrol is more concerned with shooting through auto body metal and glass than a muni officer. That isn't a training issue but a situational one. The funny thing about the advise you received is that the higher velocity 9mm usually has superior barrier penetration than the wider and slower .45 does. Back to my opening statement...
I would pick your platform then pic your round. I love 1911's but I wouldn't carry one. Because I don't feel good carrying cocked and locked. It also comes down to are you in the o'connor crowd light and fast or the Keith crowd big and slow. Most people can shoot a 9mm better with less practice. I preach practice all the time but the truth is most people get their ccw buy a pistol shoot a mag or two and start carrying. I carry a glock 19 9mm my wife carries a shield in 9mm. And I know she can put all 8 rounds on target. If I knew I was going into a gun fight I would grab my sig 226 not because it's a 9mm or it's capacity but because I feel the gun is a tank and can handle anything.
warpig602
Active member
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: pwhunterI was looking at new concealed carry pistols a few weeks ago, and trying to decide this very question. I had a 9 I've been carrying for quite awhile, but I've always wanted a 45. I asked 6 LEO's what their opinion was on a self defense cartridge. 3 highway patrolmen, 3 local policemen. Here's what struck me as being odd. All 3 patrolmen said to get a 45. All 3 local police said to get a 9. Is there something in the way their training differs that would cause the difference?
First, many cops don't know enough about firearms to be giving advise, average military dude is in the same boat. Traditionally the Highway Patrol is more concerned with shooting through auto body metal and glass than a muni officer. That isn't a training issue but a situational one. The funny thing about the advise you received is that the higher velocity 9mm usually has superior barrier penetration than the wider and slower .45 does. Back to my opening statement...
Amen to that
First, many cops don't know enough about firearms to be giving advise, average military dude is in the same boat. Traditionally the Highway Patrol is more concerned with shooting through auto body metal and glass than a muni officer. That isn't a training issue but a situational one. The funny thing about the advise you received is that the higher velocity 9mm usually has superior barrier penetration than the wider and slower .45 does. Back to my opening statement...
Amen to that
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