Handgun question: Would you rather have.....
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Hidalgo
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm. And I'm surprised that a person with your background would be concerned about having more than 10 rounds in a personal self defense weapon. Unless of course you were talking about a duty weapon.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm. And I'm surprised that a person with your background would be concerned about having more than 10 rounds in a personal self defense weapon. Unless of course you were talking about a duty weapon.
warpig602
Active member
Originally Posted By: HidalgoOriginally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm. And I'm surprised that a person with your background would be concerned about having more than 10 rounds in a personal self defense weapon. Remember ... we're not talking about a duty weapon.
Nobodies ever defended themselves with a firearm and wished they had less ammo.
Maybe in ideal world we are only attacked by one person at a time, at 7 yards or less,our shot placement is 100% and our attacker isnt determined.
Some of us in the real world who may or may havent done force on force training know that the reality is that our accuracy is not what it is at static range or even what it is on a 360 degree range with targets that are trying to not be shot and or shooting back.
Maybe you can explain why 10 rounds is sufficient?
Also consider that people who carry may not always be on the defensive side of things.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm. And I'm surprised that a person with your background would be concerned about having more than 10 rounds in a personal self defense weapon. Remember ... we're not talking about a duty weapon.
Nobodies ever defended themselves with a firearm and wished they had less ammo.
Maybe in ideal world we are only attacked by one person at a time, at 7 yards or less,our shot placement is 100% and our attacker isnt determined.
Some of us in the real world who may or may havent done force on force training know that the reality is that our accuracy is not what it is at static range or even what it is on a 360 degree range with targets that are trying to not be shot and or shooting back.
Maybe you can explain why 10 rounds is sufficient?
Also consider that people who carry may not always be on the defensive side of things.
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Rustydust
Active member
Originally Posted By: HidalgoOriginally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm.
Don't forget that there is some really hot 9 mm commercial ammo out there nowadays that can make the regular .38 Super look a bit pale by comparison. The +P+ stuff such as is sold by Buffalo Bore https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=26 that gets 1400 FPS from a 115 grain bullet or 1300 with a 124 is smokin' hot.
Now I will admit that I have not shot any of the 9 mil stuff but I have shot some of their other ammo and the advertised speeds were right on the money. Some .44 Mag stuff that I shot was brutal but spot on with advertised speeds. Would have made Elmer Keith proud if not black and blue.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm.
Don't forget that there is some really hot 9 mm commercial ammo out there nowadays that can make the regular .38 Super look a bit pale by comparison. The +P+ stuff such as is sold by Buffalo Bore https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=26 that gets 1400 FPS from a 115 grain bullet or 1300 with a 124 is smokin' hot.
Now I will admit that I have not shot any of the 9 mil stuff but I have shot some of their other ammo and the advertised speeds were right on the money. Some .44 Mag stuff that I shot was brutal but spot on with advertised speeds. Would have made Elmer Keith proud if not black and blue.
warpig602
Active member
FWIW, I clocked an avg of 1223 fps from my Winchester 127gr +p+ when fired from my 4.4in Sig P226.
I think the true 38 Super killer is 357 Sig. Equal to and very often faster that the Super while still allowing for more capcity, in a much more reliable platform. Nevermind the fact that the 357 Sig is inherently more reliable bu design.
I think the true 38 Super killer is 357 Sig. Equal to and very often faster that the Super while still allowing for more capcity, in a much more reliable platform. Nevermind the fact that the 357 Sig is inherently more reliable bu design.
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GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: HidalgoOriginally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm. And I'm surprised that a person with your background would be concerned about having more than 10 rounds in a personal self defense weapon. Unless of course you were talking about a duty weapon.
You missed the +P mention in my post. If I wanted more velocity than a +P 9mm could give me I would go straight past the .38 Super and right to the .357 Sig. With that said, once into the performance arena of the 9mm +P and above the cartridge arguments are mostly just picking nits. And for the record I am a huge .45 ACP fan. Also strongly favor the 10mm for a semi auto woods cartridge. External factors other than the cartridge weigh in considerably more than a few grains of bullet weight, another hundred fps or a slightly wider diameter. Things like your personal skill level, physical fitness, survival mindset and tactics, the attackers physical and mental state such as alcohol or drug involvement, the attackers motivation, environmental factors such as range and barriers, ect. I have carried .357 Magnum, 9mm +P, .40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP professionally in various Smith & Wesson revolvers, Colt's and Kimber 1911, Sig P226, Glock 22 and M&P 9 Pro Series handguns with modern hollow point ammunition and not felt handicapped by any of them. I also have always had a .12 gauge close to hand and in more recent years an AR platform carbine. When I was personally ambushed by a cranked out methamphetamine cook yielding a Mossberg 500 .12 gauge with 3" Federal plated lead #5 turkey loads I had a split second to decide whether or not to grab my own M870 .12 gauge cruiser ready with 00 Buck. I could have exited the car quicker with just my holstered G22 but grabbed my shotgun to fight with. It proved a smart choice... The engagement was in the middle of the night in a very dark area and the range was between 9 - 25 yards. His first shot at me was from 27' (feet) and as the event became dynamic the range stretched out. I grabbed cover behind a huge tree, he bounced around in some waist high weeds and grass. There have been a few other hairy times but this was the worst and most "permanent." Life is good, I am very thankfully and happily here today.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
GC, you are dead wrong about the velocity similarities. Modern .38 Super loads are running 1300+fps, as opposed to 1125 or so for the 9mm. And I'm surprised that a person with your background would be concerned about having more than 10 rounds in a personal self defense weapon. Unless of course you were talking about a duty weapon.
You missed the +P mention in my post. If I wanted more velocity than a +P 9mm could give me I would go straight past the .38 Super and right to the .357 Sig. With that said, once into the performance arena of the 9mm +P and above the cartridge arguments are mostly just picking nits. And for the record I am a huge .45 ACP fan. Also strongly favor the 10mm for a semi auto woods cartridge. External factors other than the cartridge weigh in considerably more than a few grains of bullet weight, another hundred fps or a slightly wider diameter. Things like your personal skill level, physical fitness, survival mindset and tactics, the attackers physical and mental state such as alcohol or drug involvement, the attackers motivation, environmental factors such as range and barriers, ect. I have carried .357 Magnum, 9mm +P, .40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP professionally in various Smith & Wesson revolvers, Colt's and Kimber 1911, Sig P226, Glock 22 and M&P 9 Pro Series handguns with modern hollow point ammunition and not felt handicapped by any of them. I also have always had a .12 gauge close to hand and in more recent years an AR platform carbine. When I was personally ambushed by a cranked out methamphetamine cook yielding a Mossberg 500 .12 gauge with 3" Federal plated lead #5 turkey loads I had a split second to decide whether or not to grab my own M870 .12 gauge cruiser ready with 00 Buck. I could have exited the car quicker with just my holstered G22 but grabbed my shotgun to fight with. It proved a smart choice... The engagement was in the middle of the night in a very dark area and the range was between 9 - 25 yards. His first shot at me was from 27' (feet) and as the event became dynamic the range stretched out. I grabbed cover behind a huge tree, he bounced around in some waist high weeds and grass. There have been a few other hairy times but this was the worst and most "permanent." Life is good, I am very thankfully and happily here today.
Coyotehunter_
New member
I went with the 9 mm as it's a lighter load and is enough that I can handle the pistol. I've not shot pistols much and this was my very first center fire handgun ever. So I'm starting out with the double stack 9 mm pistol. I ordered two extra magazines that hold 17 rounds each and they have an extended grip on the bottom for better grip.
I went with the Walters PPQ 9 mm pistol and love the way it shoots. I can fire 17 rounds very fast and the pistol comes back to the aim point after every shot. It's well balanced and does a good job.
I like having 17 rounds. The 9 mm ammo is plentiful and not that expensive either.
I went with the Walters PPQ 9 mm pistol and love the way it shoots. I can fire 17 rounds very fast and the pistol comes back to the aim point after every shot. It's well balanced and does a good job.
I like having 17 rounds. The 9 mm ammo is plentiful and not that expensive either.
Dixiedog1
New member
For a carry gun the G26 and G27 are very tough to beat. I was shocked at how accurate the "baby Glocks" were, they'll hold their own against any fullsize or compact carry gun going. I expected they would be difficult to shoot accurately given the small purchase you get on the grip but they were exactly the opposite. I'm also a huge fan of the Gen 4 grip texture, it's a good grip texture that doesn't need tape or stippling to keep your hand from slipping.
Smokeless
New member
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: SmokelessThere is also the 38 super. Available in the 1911 frame.
I'm am just not a 9mm fan and there are many other options out there.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
If you cherry pick and create a narrative by comparing +p 9mm loads to run of the mill 38 super loads then yes they are comparable. What is the difference between the .284 bullet from a 7mm-08 and the .284 bullet from a 7mm Rem mag.
Or what is the difference between 380 auto +p and standard 9mm. They are close but really not comparable. As all other examples are not comparable.
If capacity is the issue why not just run a uzi. Oh but then there is the Tommy gun to compare it to.
Good grief. I'm in the Elmer Keith camp. Bigger bore is better. The 41 mag was a great concept for leos. The 10mm was a good concept as well, and the 45 acp is tried and true.
Most engagements in self defense involving deadly force are over in seconds. Not minutes or hours. I would rather penetrate than pepper. Just me not trying to speak for others.
I'm am just not a 9mm fan and there are many other options out there.
How is the .355" bullet from the Super different than the .355" bullet of the 9mm? Both are launched at approximately the same velocity from modern +P loads. A 1911 Super is a 10 round gun and a comparable 9mm generally holds about 18 rounds. I appreciate the Super cartridge and the history behind it but when it come nut cuttin' time between the two of these I'll choose a high capacity 9mm.
If you cherry pick and create a narrative by comparing +p 9mm loads to run of the mill 38 super loads then yes they are comparable. What is the difference between the .284 bullet from a 7mm-08 and the .284 bullet from a 7mm Rem mag.
Or what is the difference between 380 auto +p and standard 9mm. They are close but really not comparable. As all other examples are not comparable.
If capacity is the issue why not just run a uzi. Oh but then there is the Tommy gun to compare it to.
Good grief. I'm in the Elmer Keith camp. Bigger bore is better. The 41 mag was a great concept for leos. The 10mm was a good concept as well, and the 45 acp is tried and true.
Most engagements in self defense involving deadly force are over in seconds. Not minutes or hours. I would rather penetrate than pepper. Just me not trying to speak for others.
GC
Well-known member
Apples to apples, not "run of the mill" - .38 Super vs. 9mm Luger "cherry picked" best loads from from Buffalo Bore.
.38 Super 124gr. +P = 1,350 fps from a 5" barrel 502 ft. lbs. energy.
9mm 124gr. +P+ = 1,300 fps from a 4.9" barrel 461 ft. lbs. of energy.
.38 Super 147gr. +P = 1,150 fps from a 5" barrel 432 ft. lbs. energy.
9mm 147gr. +P+ = 1,175 fps from a 4.6" barrel 451 ft. lbs. energy.
Both cartridges are going to perform pretty much identically. Not enough difference to hang your hat on. That has been my point all along, I am not making a case for any particular cartridge or firing platform. I don't have a stake in what anyone else chooses and do not care. They are all designed to perform identical in the FBI protocol test. Not worth getting worked up about. I do find it odd the prejudice against the 9mm Luger and trying to champion the .38 Super which for all practical purposes is identical in the field with modern loads. Other than the common firing platforms for each cartridge. Considering that, then the 9mm probably has some advantage in that area overall. Not satisfied? There are plenty of cartridges with more theoretical energy, just choose whatever floats yer boat. As someone above mentioned the weapon platform and your individual skill level with that platform is far more important than what it is chambered for. At the end of the day given all the really important stuff that can affect a defensive situation cartridge selection (given 9mm and above) is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.
.38 Super 124gr. +P = 1,350 fps from a 5" barrel 502 ft. lbs. energy.
9mm 124gr. +P+ = 1,300 fps from a 4.9" barrel 461 ft. lbs. of energy.
.38 Super 147gr. +P = 1,150 fps from a 5" barrel 432 ft. lbs. energy.
9mm 147gr. +P+ = 1,175 fps from a 4.6" barrel 451 ft. lbs. energy.
Both cartridges are going to perform pretty much identically. Not enough difference to hang your hat on. That has been my point all along, I am not making a case for any particular cartridge or firing platform. I don't have a stake in what anyone else chooses and do not care. They are all designed to perform identical in the FBI protocol test. Not worth getting worked up about. I do find it odd the prejudice against the 9mm Luger and trying to champion the .38 Super which for all practical purposes is identical in the field with modern loads. Other than the common firing platforms for each cartridge. Considering that, then the 9mm probably has some advantage in that area overall. Not satisfied? There are plenty of cartridges with more theoretical energy, just choose whatever floats yer boat. As someone above mentioned the weapon platform and your individual skill level with that platform is far more important than what it is chambered for. At the end of the day given all the really important stuff that can affect a defensive situation cartridge selection (given 9mm and above) is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.
calling4life
New member
For sure, all of you are idiots, a handgun in .45 or 9mm on a human is like a 22 or 17 on elk. What we need is grenade launchers and tomahawk cruise missiles.
Get a 20 gauge coach gun, saw the barrels off just after the handguard and replace the buttstock with a pistol grip, lead 9 shot. Don't worry about the legality, your "defensive" shooting will never be ruled as such and the murder one charge will dwarf the weapons charge.
Get a 20 gauge coach gun, saw the barrels off just after the handguard and replace the buttstock with a pistol grip, lead 9 shot. Don't worry about the legality, your "defensive" shooting will never be ruled as such and the murder one charge will dwarf the weapons charge.
Widow maker 223
Active member
It depends on the situation. You bring a knife and i will bring something else. There is no perfect tool!
Having the higher capacity of most 9's never hurts. But a double stack .45 is a nice option too. Iv often thought about a high cap 9 myself, maybe in the future. Until then the 1911 45 for me.
Having the higher capacity of most 9's never hurts. But a double stack .45 is a nice option too. Iv often thought about a high cap 9 myself, maybe in the future. Until then the 1911 45 for me.
As gangs get to be more prevalent, the need for more ammo is real. I have a 15 shot 45 ACP that is made by FN, that is a double/single action with the decocker that rivals my custom rebuilt Kimber Gold Target Stainless in accuracy.
The fact is that most people can shoot a 9mm better than a 45.
The 9mm +P+ ammo available on gunbroker in Ranger T series expands to 67 caliber in the 5 gallon water jugs that I tested it in. Speer Gold dots 124g expanded to 62 caliber.
Shot placement is going to be key with either, make no mistake about that issue.
I think that the Springfield XD 9mm holds 19 rounds in the mag plus one in the pipe.
The fact is that most people can shoot a 9mm better than a 45.
The 9mm +P+ ammo available on gunbroker in Ranger T series expands to 67 caliber in the 5 gallon water jugs that I tested it in. Speer Gold dots 124g expanded to 62 caliber.
Shot placement is going to be key with either, make no mistake about that issue.
I think that the Springfield XD 9mm holds 19 rounds in the mag plus one in the pipe.
Theshedhunter
Active member
Surely there's lots of folks that have been shot with both rounds. Just ask them which one hurt worse! Problem solved!
I'm a fan of the 45. I currently have 2 45's, a 1911 and an XDS. My 9mm is a Sig.
If we're talking a self defense situation, I'd take the 45 all day. If you can't hit what you need to in 7 rounds, you'll probably be dead before you can fire 15. 45 single stack mags are also a lot easier to stuff in a pocket and not notice it's even there. So, in the off chance you fire your 7 rounds and you're not dead yet you can throw in another mag and try 7 more times.
It's also my understanding the army is looking to replace the 9mm due to a lack of stopping power they've experienced in the middle east.
If we're talking a self defense situation, I'd take the 45 all day. If you can't hit what you need to in 7 rounds, you'll probably be dead before you can fire 15. 45 single stack mags are also a lot easier to stuff in a pocket and not notice it's even there. So, in the off chance you fire your 7 rounds and you're not dead yet you can throw in another mag and try 7 more times.
It's also my understanding the army is looking to replace the 9mm due to a lack of stopping power they've experienced in the middle east.
coleridge
New member
Originally Posted By: kpkiefer
It's also my understanding the army is looking to replace the 9mm due to a lack of stopping power they've experienced in the middle east.
As stated earlier... That is with ball ammunition. The similar "ball" ammo that is also used for military rifles & why many think the 5.56x45/223 is under powered as well. How many times on this site have you heard people say not to use FMJ on coyote (read:smaller than a human) or you will loose said coyote. Wonder why that is? Bullet design changes the "leathality" of any weapon. If our military were carrying 60gr vmax & 147gr Gold Dots doubt you would hear many of those stories. (Hint: you are not limited to your ammo choice, choose wisely)
That said... I am VERY surprised this thread has sooooo many 9mm fans. Most internet threads like this turn into a 9mm bashing.
I have a few different 9mm's. Also have a few 45's. Even have some 38 Super, 40S&W & several revolver cchamberings as well. Guns from full blown custom 1911 race guns to fully stock glocks, smiths, & even a Kahr. I have shot them all a LOT. If I knew I were going to a gunfight I wouldn't grab any of them, unless I had ample time & it was for back up. Long gun trumps any pistol ever made.
For times when a long gun isn't practical, whatever is, is the best choice. Your not likely to tote a big bulky piece no matter what chambering or caliber. A PM9 is super small (in terms of most 9mm's) and goes most places even though it only holds 7rnds (still beats the chit out of a knife). No way I can carry a full size 1911 all day everyday, most won't (at least in summer drab).
I have both a Sig 9mm & a Glock 45 nearby for a "grab" gun when I'm home. In case of an emergency, the best one is the one I can get to first. If the chits really deep, it will only be "best" till (hopefully) it gets me to a long gun.
I have shot a good bit of game with pistols. Even killed some deer with "service" chamberings. If you guys havn't, you should try them out on living breathing critters with different chambering/calibers. Some of the diffences (or simularities) maybee be eye openning & you will learn 10 fold the admission. Just make sure the mag is full when you get to deer-v/s-380.
It's also my understanding the army is looking to replace the 9mm due to a lack of stopping power they've experienced in the middle east.
As stated earlier... That is with ball ammunition. The similar "ball" ammo that is also used for military rifles & why many think the 5.56x45/223 is under powered as well. How many times on this site have you heard people say not to use FMJ on coyote (read:smaller than a human) or you will loose said coyote. Wonder why that is? Bullet design changes the "leathality" of any weapon. If our military were carrying 60gr vmax & 147gr Gold Dots doubt you would hear many of those stories. (Hint: you are not limited to your ammo choice, choose wisely)
That said... I am VERY surprised this thread has sooooo many 9mm fans. Most internet threads like this turn into a 9mm bashing.
I have a few different 9mm's. Also have a few 45's. Even have some 38 Super, 40S&W & several revolver cchamberings as well. Guns from full blown custom 1911 race guns to fully stock glocks, smiths, & even a Kahr. I have shot them all a LOT. If I knew I were going to a gunfight I wouldn't grab any of them, unless I had ample time & it was for back up. Long gun trumps any pistol ever made.
For times when a long gun isn't practical, whatever is, is the best choice. Your not likely to tote a big bulky piece no matter what chambering or caliber. A PM9 is super small (in terms of most 9mm's) and goes most places even though it only holds 7rnds (still beats the chit out of a knife). No way I can carry a full size 1911 all day everyday, most won't (at least in summer drab).
I have both a Sig 9mm & a Glock 45 nearby for a "grab" gun when I'm home. In case of an emergency, the best one is the one I can get to first. If the chits really deep, it will only be "best" till (hopefully) it gets me to a long gun.
I have shot a good bit of game with pistols. Even killed some deer with "service" chamberings. If you guys havn't, you should try them out on living breathing critters with different chambering/calibers. Some of the diffences (or simularities) maybee be eye openning & you will learn 10 fold the admission. Just make sure the mag is full when you get to deer-v/s-380.
deaddogwalkin
Active member
I would rather have what I am carrying that day. If it is a 45 with 8 rounds or a 40 with 13. Or if it is cold and I carry 17 rounds of 40. A single stack 45 with a 3in barrel is going to be smaller than any double stack 9. even my 5in 45 is lighter than a double stack 9.