I NEED ADVICE ON WHAT SCOPE TO GET FOR MY 308

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2MG, not trying to start any crap, but what do you think of the NEW Redfields made by Leupold? I looked through one at my gun shop, thought it was clear enough for me, and was very pleased with the light weight and smaller size. It was a 4-12.
I've owned one Leupold, a vxII 4.5-14X50 and didn't like it. I know they are quality scopes, I just never felt good with it.
Don't bite me, just asking for opinion. Thanks.

Shayne
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunNow is the time to RUN to your nearest Leupold dealer. For you will soon have a recommendation to buy every different POS scope on the planet.........

Spot on! Not sure they will last forever but if it don't it will be repaired or replaced. Simple fact is they have the best warranty in the industry and are still affordable to the average person.
 
I cannot offer any real world experience with one.

I'm not sure if it will work as good as a Weaver Classic or not. I'd say the Weaver may have slightly better glass, and I happen to know they are tough and track well. Same price range.

That said, I would not hesitate to buy a Redfield and give it a run. Decent price, made here, and excellent customer service/warranty behind it. It's worthy of a shot IMO.....

 
Originally Posted By: yotehunter57 2MG, not trying to start any crap, but what do you think of the NEW Redfields made by Leupold? I looked through one at my gun shop, thought it was clear enough for me, and was very pleased with the light weight and smaller size. It was a 4-12.
I've owned one Leupold, a vxII 4.5-14X50 and didn't like it. I know they are quality scopes, I just never felt good with it.
Don't bite me, just asking for opinion. Thanks.

Shayne

Shayne, I'm speaking out of turn but what the hey. I handled one of the new Redfields in a S.W. store last week. Hard to tell to much about a scope just looking through it in a store, but my first impression as I looked at various things at various distances on various powers in and around the warehouse was good.

I then took the elevation dust cover off and turned the knob a few *clicks* each way. It felt sloppy, felt like alot of play when changing directions, the clicks weren't very well defined/distinct.

I went instantly cold to the scope. I put the cover back on and handed it back to the yoyo behind the counter. That so far has been my one and only experiance with a new Redfield. Maybe they aren't all like that or I was expecting to much?
 
If your favorite scope is the one that everyone wants then I guess that would make great sense. In my book the train left the station and Leupold was still there these days anyway. I guess if you have those rose colored glasses on you might feel that way though........HAHAHA!

Here is SWFA 2009 Evaluation of the different scopes on the market. The order of quality is by grouping in descending order from the top:

2009 Riflescope Rating Scale

Leica ER, Swarovski Z6, Zeiss Victory

Kahles C - CL & CSX, Premier Reticle, Schmidt & Bender

Kahles KX, U.S. Optics, Swarovski PH & American Lightweight

Bushnell Elite 6500, Leupold VX-7, Nightforce NXS, IOR Valdada, Vortex Razor

Bushnell Elite 4200, Leupold VX-3, Nikon Monarch & Monarch X, Zeiss Conquest

Leupold Mark 4 VX III & VX-L, Meopta, Nikon Monarch Gold & Titanium, Sightron SIII & S2 Big Sky, Vortex Viper

Burris Black Diamond Signature Select XTR & Euro Diamond, Pentax Lightseeker, Trijicon Accupoint, Weaver Grand Slam

Bushnell Elite 3200, Leupold VX-II, Millet Tactical/Buck Gold, Nikko Stirling, Nikon Buckmaster, Sightron SI & SII, Vortex Crossfire & Diamondback, Super Sniper Fixed

Burris Fullfield II & Timberline, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Leatherwood, Mueller, Nikon ProStaff, Simmons

Barska, Sightmark, Swift, Truglo

BSA, Tasco, Yukon

ATN, Leapers, NcStar
 
You keep gettin' your info from the internet, I'll keep getting mine from out in the field.

That list is laughable at best, on several levels.........
 
Originally Posted By: CurlywoodsIf your favorite scope is the one that everyone wants then I guess that would make great sense. In my book the train left the station and Leupold was still there these days anyway. I guess if you have those rose colored glasses on you might feel that way though........HAHAHA!

Here is SWFA 2009 Evaluation of the different scopes on the market. The order of quality is by grouping in descending order from the top:

2009 Riflescope Rating Scale

Leica ER, Swarovski Z6, Zeiss Victory

Kahles C - CL & CSX, Premier Reticle, Schmidt & Bender

Kahles KX, U.S. Optics, Swarovski PH & American Lightweight

Bushnell Elite 6500, Leupold VX-7, Nightforce NXS, IOR Valdada, Vortex Razor

Bushnell Elite 4200, Leupold VX-3, Nikon Monarch & Monarch X, Zeiss Conquest

Leupold Mark 4 VX III & VX-L, Meopta, Nikon Monarch Gold & Titanium, Sightron SIII & S2 Big Sky, Vortex Viper

Burris Black Diamond Signature Select XTR & Euro Diamond, Pentax Lightseeker, Trijicon Accupoint, Weaver Grand Slam

Bushnell Elite 3200, Leupold VX-II, Millet Tactical/Buck Gold, Nikko Stirling, Nikon Buckmaster, Sightron SI & SII, Vortex Crossfire & Diamondback, Super Sniper Fixed

Burris Fullfield II & Timberline, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Leatherwood, Mueller, Nikon ProStaff, Simmons

Barska, Sightmark, Swift, Truglo

BSA, Tasco, Yukon

ATN, Leapers, NcStar

(I thought I'd add to this post since we will not all agree on the list and the way the list was formed. The following is how they weighed the scopes to determine their list.)



The scale below was formed by SWFA sales staff, customer service, pro-staff and owners using personal experience, customer input and facts supplied by the manufacturers. The ranking system is based on the following criteria.


51% Optical Quality - How bright and clear the scope is.

15% Specifications - Field of view, eye relief, weight, adjustment travel, etc.

15% Durability - How do they with stand the test of time.

12% Special Features & Options - Proprietary items (reticles, design, turrets), Zoom ratio.

7% Warranty & Customer Service - How good are they.

(Then later they say)

We can combine Special Features with Specifications to help simplify things and re-weight the scale.


51% Optical Quality - How bright and clear the scope is.

20% Specifications & Special Features - Field of view, eye relief, weight, adjustment travel, proprietary reticles and turret designs, Erector ration (zoom)

20% Durability - How do they with stand the test of time.

9% Warranty & Customer Service - How good are they.

(Here's the link - http://www.opticstalk.com/swfa-scope-scale-discussion-thread-2009_topic16515_page1.html)
 
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Here is a typical SWFA "scope review". Nothing more than a bunch of mindless drivel, opinions based on first observations and fondling new scopes right out of the box. Throw in some more cut and paste crap from the mfg., some opinions based on no real facts, and some internet heresay, and you have this:

http://www.opticstalk.com/hawke-frontier-sf-416x42-leupold-vx3-4514x40_topic17250.html

Very enlightening indeed. Not one word or picture of actual field testing for tracking or durability. He states "there's not one bad scope in the bunch...." He wouldn't know it if there was. A complete joke to anyone who knows better........
 
I think it's more like 99% speculation and 1% BS.

Exactly what tests did they use and how were they conducted to establish tracking ability and durability? How many actual rounds, under what field conditions, did they put down the tube under each scope?

I'd say most of the "testing" was done in an office building.....
 
It seems to me that each of their categories could be easily argued to be incorrect by most folks. I understand that for their purposes they had to make some sort of attempt.

I do believe the only way to really know is to test one out. I do like to try to do some things to start off in a good place. I'll read the reviews on a site I like and try to weed through them. Sometimes I'll find some info that will disqualify one for me. I also try to find one locally where I can look through it and decide if I trust what the owner has to say about it. We have a good local site that allows us to all check out each others gear.

Another way I like to start my list when looking to buy is to look at shooting arenas that put a lot of ammo down range. Talk to armorers, instructors at courses, talk to the seasoned folks at 3 gun matches. I put a lot of ammo down range for personal protection training and 3 gun (and I varmint hunt, but that's small beans compared to the other 2 categories as far as rounds down range) and like to try to choose well up front, but sometimes find out the hard way.

I've tried quite a few brands but so far the ones that have held up well for me are...
- Aimpoint
- Millett DMS-1 1-4
- Leupold
So far, in those 3 brands, I haven't had one fail me with a lot of ammo down range. Each has held zero and performed well for me. In order, I'm hardest on the Aimpoints then one Millett DMS-1 then a 1-4 Leupold. I have a 3-9 Leupold that I had their custom shop put knobs on that is a favorite of mine on a hunting rig. I found a good inexpensive 1-4 from the Leupold custom shop that has held up well. The Millett DMS 1-4 is well within the price range listed (even with a good mount) and has an illuminated reticle so that's why I'd look at that one along with some of the other good recommendations from others.

2 of my Leupolds and all of the Aimpoints are out of the price range listed though.

I have not had to deal with warranty stuff on the 3 brands I listed as they have not failed. I have dealt with Leupold's custom shop and they have treated me well. I also asked them for shims once and they sent them free of charge.



I say all of the above to say that the intended use and budget for that firearm determines a lot of it.
 
There is no substitute for actual trigger time. All the fancy reticles won't teach you how to shoot, and all the internet "facts" won't trump facts learned by one in the field or at the range.

People have a real hard time changing my mind about stuff I know to be otherwise due to real world experience. I would think it should be that way with all......
 
To hijack this thread a little further, 2MG you have hit on something that bothers me quite a bit. With the advent of inexpensive diode lasers, photo cells, and other simple light detectors; it would not take more than a few days to design and build test equipment that would yield valuable numeric data for scopes. Couple this with honest field testing, and a good objective hypothesis could be formed. Instead, I see exactly what you describe, mere fictitious hyperbole. It is unfortunate that gun writers have begun to travel this path as well.

I will get off my soap box now.
John
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunThere is no substitute for actual trigger time. All the fancy reticles won't teach you how to shoot, and all the internet "facts" won't trump facts learned by one in the field or at the range.

People have a real hard time changing my mind about stuff I know to be otherwise due to real world experience. I would think it should be that way with all......

I agree for the most part and only wanted to add that folks need a way to decide what brand/s to start with - some sort of information to choose from in the beginning. And I definitely agree that the only way to know is trigger time. The rest of my post was just to make suggestions to those who have not had a chance to get the trigger time, to give them a way to find info that might help them. Even with all of that said a person would still have to trust the source or have money to burn.

If I never tried anything new I would have never tried a Millett and it has served me well with a second one holding up so far (limited use though on the 2nd one). In my early years of buying scopes I would have never even considered trying the Millett DMS. These types of boards are nice for being able to trade stuff around to see what fits. Plus some folks just can't spend what others can on optics so it's nice to know something about some other brands.
 
"Mere fictitious hyperbole"......I like that.
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I don't mean to sound like such a prick all the time, it's just that everybody wants to be an authority without actually putting in the time and doing the work.

I'll tell you right now, there is NO WAY that every one of those scopes in the SWFA "test" tracks perfectly true as advertised. Sometimes .250" means .250". But often times it means .259" or .268" or even more. Trust me, this isn't a guess......
 
Granted, it is nice to have something to base your decisions on, it's just that it is VERY easy to be mislead.

Kinda like reading Chuck Hawks' articles. There is next to nothing that isn't just cut and paste from somewhere else.......
 
Trigger time is great. The buying public has little to go on if they do not have something other than people, just like all of us, commenting on what they have had success with and what we haven't.

SWFA charts are by no means a defacto end all, but name me another scope merit chart, that has more than just "opinion" involved?

You like Leupold, that is great. It has served you well and that is also great. To state that their product is better than anything else is a bit short sighted IMO! Given their cost, they should be great. They are fine optics, but the best? Well that is a little harder to swallow. I have liked the ones that I owned over the years, but I have never felt that I got a steal for their asking prices. I have had many scopes that never broke, functioned well and were repeatable. This is not exclusive to one brand of scope. From failures mentioned on other forums, their reliability is not anything that they can hang their hats on either vs a great many other manufacturers these days.

They do still have great resale value as I can personally attest. I no longer own any of their products, but the ones that I owned were always reliable and perfectly functional products. Just never got that feeling that I had reached nirvana either though myself.

As in all things in life, there are truly great products, but they are not cheap. Then there is the great middle ground where most humans reside. Products in this range get their reputations by word of mouth. There are a great many "favorites" of a great many. People should buy what they feel is what fits their needs. First time scope buyers should look for something that they can recoup most of their money back once they have enough experience to have a better informed opinion of what it is that they want from their optics. Never take what is said on any optics forum as gospel!

As far as the people that create that list over at SWFA, they are some great folks and not all are employed by SWFA. Ilya is one of the most respected optics reviewers on the internet, not just on the SWFA and Sniper's Hide forums, and he has more knowledge about how and why scopes work and how they perform than about anyone that I ma aware of period!

Some people have a holier than though attitude that serves them well with the unwashed. I take a light hearted approach and just promote what works for me and has shown merit and real value for me and my style of shooting.

When some people think that they are the only ones that have shot enough to have valid opinions about anything gun or optics related, that show me that they maybe full of hot gas
smile.gif
 
Your point is well taken, and I understand your POV.

Some folks consider Leupold to be expensive optics. Some consider them to be junk. I consider them to be mid-priced optics that just about anyone who can afford a new rifle, can afford a new Leupold. They are certainly not the greatest scope made. Not the brightest, not the toughest, not the most repeatable. HOWEVER, I do consider them to be the best in their price range and they are backed by the best warranty in the industry. The one everybody else envies and has tried to copy. I've used a bunch of them, amnd I don't baby my equipment. I also shoot more often than most. I've also owned a whole lot of other scopes in which to compare Leupold to. You have to spend more money to get a better scope, IMO. Resale value is outstanding.

As far as Ilya is concerned, tell me what you found particularly informative about his his "scope test". What exactly was actually "tested"? Nothing........

 
NOTHING! He is an Optics Engineer by trade and a very well respected one throughout the industry.

His tests are both based upon glass quality, repeatability and the intangibles. I am sorry but your statement reeks of ignorance as to what Ilya does in his testing procedures. I am floored by your comments about him to say the least.
 
I'm still asking the same question. What did you find informative about the "test". Cuz I found NOTHING.

Well respected by who? You? Ilya didn't speak a word of what his testing procedures were, what they included, or how they are conducted. No specifics whatsoever.

If he did any kind of real extensive research, one would think that he would want to publish it. Yet he didn't. Because he didn't.

I didn't hear a word about tracking or how a tracking test was conducted. Didn't see any pics, either. You know why? Cuz there aren't any. How is durability determined?

Optics engineer or not, until he states how he came up with his findings on glass quality, repeatability, and durability, it's all just heresay. There isn't one thing in that "test" that I couldn't write sitting here in my chair right now. You go ahead and eat it right up. I'll pass til some real information comes along.........





 
You obviously know little about Ilya or what he does. Have you ever read any of his tests before or threads where he discusses the results of his testing with others?
 
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