TSS Round 2

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At $38/lb, you could load a 12 ga 1 oz load of TSS for $2.82/round.

You are looking at 3" Dead Coyote rounds at $4.80/round before either taxes or shipping (which I understand these rounds are used regularly around here).

Also you are looking at 54 #2 pellets in a 1 oz TSS load where as your 1 3/8 oz 00 Buck load of Dead Coyote has 16 pellets.

You will be able to push over 3 times the number of TSS pellets, which are roughly 50% denser than the Dead Coyote, at 1400 fps with a much greater pattern density. This will effectively put more pellets on target with deadly results.
 
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Long post here. You've been warned... But - probably my last post on TSS, for awhile. I don't like talking so much about something I have no actual experience with.

This is a cut and paste I made several months ago on another forum, explaining my interest in TSS for coyote and where I'm hoping to get with it:

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Primary objective is Dead Right There performance, under a given set of conditions. That is to say, the a well centered pattern within a given distance, equals a coyote that drops on the spot and doesn't get back up again.

My current go-to loads are (3" 12 gauge) 1-1/2 oz. of Hevi shot BB w/TEF choke and a 1-3/4 oz. load of nickel plated lead F w/Dead Coyote choke. The HS BB is great for 45 yards and under, nicely sized dense pattern and "pretty good" penetration, but lacks a little punch for coyotes at 45+ and especially coyotes going away and offering their retreating hind end at 45+. The NP F definitely penetrates and breaks down those longer and going away coyote better, but at the expense of pattern size and ease of hits on closer shots.

In a nutshell, the HS BB is easier to hit them with but the NP F kills better at the margins.

When I get to experimenting with TSS it will be with an eye towards improving performance over the above.

From a purely theoretical standpoint - not grounded in extensive actual experience - so please feel free to point out the errors in my thinking, but "what I'm thinking" is:

- Two separate applications (with overlap being major bonus):

- First Application: Increased lethality and one shot DRT ratio at "normal" range (under 50 yards) via increased pellet count for larger "swarm of death" combined with greatly increased penetration, improving ease of hits and killing performance simultaneously at typical under 50 yard ranges

- Second Application: Increased range (>50 yards) via pattern density and penetration, a bona fide 60 yard DRT performer would be a home run

The Holy Grail would be one load that covers both bases, with one choke. Wide enough pattern at 30 yards to keep hits on runners in the brush easy, but with enough center pattern density and penetration to be a bona-fide one shot killer at 50 yards and a bit further.

I'm not looking for the Holy Grail though... Be perfectly fine with two different loads and chokes. One for the tight cover and another for setups with longish shot potential.

So... This is just bench racing, at this point, rolling ideas around. But I'll be acting upon it within the next few months.

I'm thinking a 1-1/2 oz. load of TSS #4's ought to cover the increased lethality at normal range via larger pellet count. Cover it very nicely. About 124 pellets and KPY predicted gel penetration about equal to HS Dead Coyote (which has only 51 pellets in the 3" load). Sounds lovely and I can't wait to try some! Anyone care to hazard any input on which choke you'd suggest for that?

For extended range, without totally turning the shotgun int a rifle at closer range, I'm liking the looks of TSS #2 on paper. Indeed, according to KPY the pellet count of 1-1/2 oz. of #2's is 80, but with over 50% more 3.7" gel penetration than Dead Coyote (80 yds vs 126 yds). Enough pellet count to get a reasonable swarm of death for normal ranges, but big enough, round enough, hard and heavy enough shot that perhaps there is a chance for having a dozen pellets still consistently hitting a 10" circle at 50 yards without choking the crap out of it at shorter distance. Maybe go ahead and do choke the crap out of it and have a semblance of a pattern at 60 yards? That sounds like the ticket!

The #1's, with only 67 pellets in a 1-1/2 oz payload (per KPY) don't look near as sexy on paper. The aren't gaining me anything needed or meaningful in penetration vs. the #2's (either will penetrate beyond any hope of maintaining a pattern), they are only costing me pellet count (vs #2's).

So, anyway... Like I said, bench racing, thinking out loud, rolling ideas around. Hoping for someone to poke some holes, point out some new information, whatever - bring it.


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So, just an add on note, regarding my personal goals for TSS. I'm not really all that interested in extending shotgun range past 60 yards, for a variety of reasons. But, most of all, a shotgun load that is deadly at 60, but "too tight" at 30, defeats "my" reasons for carrying a shotgun in the first place. Somebody else might have good use for such a specialized load, but I don't. I have rifles I like very much for stands where I can see coyotes and expect shots at over 60 yards. The shotgun is for stands where I have little chance of scoring a hit with a rifle. A pattern that is too tight will reduce my success, regardless of penetration potential.

If I can extend useful range 5 - 10 yards, while simultaneously increasing the size of the pattern dense enough for reliable killing at 30, 40 yards, that would really be something. Might be possible? Might need a duplex? I'm really not sure. But that's what I'm spending the money and going through all the hoops with this stuff for, to find out, for myself, with my own eyes. Call me a skeptic, but in my fairly extensive research, all I'm seeing is big claims and teeny-tiny almost meaningless sample sizes. Have yet to find anyone that seem to actually know how to call and kill coyote that has used TSS very much. Bob is probably the most experienced and trusted source available right now. But everything else I'm reading, fFve or six coyotes, spread between multiple individuals, none of whom have much if any coyote experience, don't mean squat to me. I want to test the crap out of it and then go kill a decent sized pile of coyotes with it, personally. At that point, I might form and start sharing some strong opinions
laugh.gif
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- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: blingslinger
Also you are looking at 54 #2 pellets in a 1 oz TSS load where as your 1 3/8 oz 00 Buck load of Dead Coyote has 16 pellets.


Bling, I'm really not picking on you. I'm trying to help you.

But, the above, once more, illustrates that you don't know poop from apple butter, when it comes to coyote. None of you TSS guys seem to have even a little bit of coyote savvy.

The DC T load, is the one you should be comparing to. Nobody, with a brain, uses the 00 load for coyote.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: DAAOriginally Posted By: blingslinger
Also you are looking at 54 #2 pellets in a 1 oz TSS load where as your 1 3/8 oz 00 Buck load of Dead Coyote has 16 pellets.


Bling, I'm really not picking on you. I'm trying to help you.

But, the above, once more, illustrates that you don't know poop from apple butter, when it comes to coyote. None of you TSS guys seem to have even a little bit of coyote savvy.

The DC T load, is the one you should be comparing to. Nobody, with a brain, uses the 00 load for coyote.

- DAA

I will agree, once I went back and looked at the available DC loads from Hevi, I figured that the T shot load was probably the one most used, vs the 00 Buck.

I will also agree that I don't go out and specifically coyote hunt anymore, I used to back when I was in high school, and college, and had places that were jammed up with them. That said, I was usually carrying a rifle or lead #4 buckshot back then.

Now days, I usually kill/attempt to kill them with whatever I have in my hand when I see them. It may be my bow, it may be my shotgun with a TSS turkey load, my 300 blackout, it may be my muzzleloader, but I utilize whatever is handy at the moment.

So yes, I will admit, I am not the most savvy of the savvy on coyotes, but that is why I have you guys, that do this alot more than I do.
 
Originally Posted By: DAA

If I can extend useful range 5 - 10 yards, while simultaneously increasing the size of the pattern dense enough for reliable killing at 30, 40 yards, that would really be something. Might be possible? Might need a duplex? I'm really not sure.


It will take a duplex, its been done with turkey loads, and can most likely be done with predator loads.
 
The way i look at it, solid killing patterns at 50 yards equals about 100% of realistic shotgun performance. It seems to be ridiculously difficult and expensive to really expect to achieve much beyond that. i would call a 60 yard killing pattern 120% shotgun performance, but at a 600% increase in cost to use the TSS. Personally, i don't shoot very many coyotes and that's not really worth it to me, but there are certainly some folks around who may see that as a worthwhile expense, and more power to them. I also don't think it's fair to make a pellet count comparison between #2 TSS and 00B Hevishot. comparing a ($2.80) 1oz load of 54 #2TSS to a ($.80)1 3/4oz load of 49 NP Lead F buckshot seems a bit more realistic to me, and although the lead F fails to penetrate 3.7" gel much beyond 80 yards at typical velocities, obtaining anything resembling a pattern at that range with either shot material would probably be next to impossible (that's why everyone wants to see pictures). i do truly look forward to seeing some results of TSS testing because the energy and pellet count of the #4 TSS looks like it could be very good, albeit pricey.
lastly, i don't think it really matters if a pellet can carry enough energy at 80 or even 125 yards to penetrate 3.7 inches of gel, because without a reliable pattern to place those pellets where they need to be, they're not much good to begin with for the ethically minded hunter. as long as the pellets carry as much or more energy for the required killing penetration, BEYOND the maximum range of your effective pattern, you'll kill most of what you shoot at within range.
 
Originally Posted By: blingslinger
Also you are looking at 54 #2 pellets in a 1 oz TSS load where as your 1 3/8 oz 00 Buck load of Dead Coyote has 16 pellets.


If there are 16 pellets of 00 buck in a Hevi-Shot 1-3/8 oz load they are not the 12g/cc Hevi-Shot pellets. They would have to be not as dense as lead or much smaller than 00 buck in size.

BPI says there are 8.13 lead 00 buck pellets per ounce.

EMI "Hevi-Shot" is pretty good at not being truthful. There is no telling what is in their loads.

Some of the Hevi-Shot 00 buck pellets are frangible. Having huge shotgun pellets that may break apart when they hit something makes no sense to me.
 
DAA
May I ask how wide a pattern at 30 yards would be your preference. Also what load choke and length the barrel on your shotgun
 
Originally Posted By: derbyacresbobOriginally Posted By: blingslinger
Also you are looking at 54 #2 pellets in a 1 oz TSS load where as your 1 3/8 oz 00 Buck load of Dead Coyote has 16 pellets.


If there are 16 pellets of 00 buck in a Hevi-Shot 1-3/8 oz load they are not the 12g/cc Hevi-Shot pellets. They would have to be not as dense as lead or much smaller than 00 buck in size.

BPI says there are 8.13 lead 00 buck pellets per ounce.

EMI "Hevi-Shot" is pretty good at not being truthful. There is no telling what is in their loads.

Some of the Hevi-Shot 00 buck pellets are frangible. Having huge shotgun pellets that may break apart when they hit something makes no sense to me.

Bob,

I actually misspoke, they advertise 12 pellets, not 16. But I do agree 100%, since Ron Petty left as their VP of sales and marketing, they have done alot of fibbing about their products.
 
Ok. So just what I use in my turkey gun. Rem 870 21"bbl and EF choke. 585 Trulock.
7/8oz #4 TSS at 1400fps.

If I was to use this specifically for Yotes I might test a different choke. This pattern is 33" wide. There were a couple pellets just outside this target. I have "0" doubt one could have a good wide pattern and still hold a pattern to 60 and beyond to pound a yote DRT.
1-1.5oz loads will fill in and be more even with testing. FYI. You will never really know till you test your shotgun and choose a choke. Longer barrels less choking and shorter barrels more choking
 
With that info, there should be 73 pellets in a 7/8 oz load, so 67 in a 33" circle puts 97.1% of the payload in a 33" circle at 40 yds.

Using standard TSS projections in loss of pattern density, over distance, you should have:

50 yds - 41-49 pellets in the 33" pattern
60 yds - 21-25 pellets in the 33" pattern
 
So "at 60 yards" best case 25 pellets in 33" diameter pattern would amount to 1 hit per 32 square inches. The 78.5 square inches afforded by a 10" circle would net 2.5 hits at 60 yards, call it 3, with a uniform pattern density of 1 hit per 32sq in. I understand that we're talking a 7/8 oz load here, and whatever choke that example pattern was fired through might not have been ideal for whatever purpose, but i would call 3 hits in a 10 circle woefully inadequate to be shooting at live game and expecting to kill it. if you could double the amount of hits to 50 in 33" at 60 yards, a uniform pattern density of 1 hit per 16 sq in. would result in 5 hits.... this would cost considerably more than a 7/8 oz load though, and you'd still have a $5 shotgun shell of questionable effectiveness at 60 yards. of course this is all just speculation, but hopefully it can illustrate how difficult it can be to get a really great pattern density/energy combination at extended shotgun range. i'm not here to advocate for lead or tss either way, except for the fact that i'm just too cheap to buy the tungsten. also, i could be wrong, but i don't think that larger tss shot would react as possitively to being buffered in the same way that lead would, since in theory it should not be deformed upon firing.
 
As I said it's just what I use incase a yote slips in at distance. If I were to set up for yotes I can assure you I would do differently. Pics and such were asked for so I thought I would help out some.
 
I am just going to throw this in because I can and I have a good bit of experience with this area.....

Many have mentioned the chokes they have bought and the constrictions those chokes list..... Well what number are those constrictions based off.... I can answer that... they are based off general bore diam. from the various mfg's. Not that those measurements are always exact and when it comes to getting pattern efficiency from a shotgun the true bore is what is the base number.

It only takes a few thousandths to change a choke dramatically. Think of it like changing powder charges by the gr when reloading... 1 gr can make a heck of a difference. Same with bullets. But no one in this discussion or many others like it has said much at all about the relationship of the choke's restriction to the actual size of the bore.

I know some live pigeon shooters who want their chokes within.0001 of dimension in each barrel.... this is a game where $5000.00 can be won or lost on one bird.... I can also remember way back in the day (early 1960's) when my Dad sent two Remington Model 11's down to somewhere in the swamp lands of South Carolina to have the barrels "worked" to shoot buck shot which at the time was all you could deer hunt with in New Jersey(single 0, Double 00 and Trip 000, then along came #1) any way when those guns came back they would both put 6 pellets, at least, in a "6" circle at 50 yards.
6 .33 caliber lead pellets in that little space is pretty devastating.

Choke is important but I dont think how chokes (screw in) work is something a lot of people are paying attention to relevant to what loads they are shooting.

If I were going to mess with producing a really good shotgun for predator hunting I would start with Remington 1100 or God forbid one of those over priced Bennelli's

At that point I would have the barrel back bored to about .735-.740 then I would send that gun to Briley or one of the custom choke makers with instruction as to what performance I wanted with what load.. (likely send them the load to test with).

Now... the outcome will be the exact performance you want with either lead, heavy or TTS....
 
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Well. That work may be needed for lead patterns but not TSS. I want to help anyone who has interest in using these pellets for yotes. TSS responds to choking much differently. It tends to pattern more open at closer ranges yet still be tight at 40, 50, and further. It's almost too easy. The issue is that if I do testing with my gun it my not transfer to your shotgun. Even the same make and model will shoot differently. Also barrel length is a big deal.
As I said, I'm showing what can be done with little effort to make a yote load and pattern.
BS is not doing this to make money. He has a full time job and does this as a hobby, as I do. We use TSS. If other have interest we do some general testing and load development. If folks want, great. If not, it was offered.
 
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