blingslinger
New member
Originally Posted By: ANF HunterSo "at 60 yards" best case 25 pellets in 33" diameter pattern would amount to 1 hit per 32 square inches. The 78.5 square inches afforded by a 10" circle would net 2.5 hits at 60 yards, call it 3, with a uniform pattern density of 1 hit per 32sq in. I understand that we're talking a 7/8 oz load here, and whatever choke that example pattern was fired through might not have been ideal for whatever purpose, but i would call 3 hits in a 10 circle woefully inadequate to be shooting at live game and expecting to kill it. if you could double the amount of hits to 50 in 33" at 60 yards, a uniform pattern density of 1 hit per 16 sq in. would result in 5 hits.... this would cost considerably more than a 7/8 oz load though, and you'd still have a $5 shotgun shell of questionable effectiveness at 60 yards. of course this is all just speculation, but hopefully it can illustrate how difficult it can be to get a really great pattern density/energy combination at extended shotgun range. i'm not here to advocate for lead or tss either way, except for the fact that i'm just too cheap to buy the tungsten. also, i could be wrong, but i don't think that larger tss shot would react as possitively to being buffered in the same way that lead would, since in theory it should not be deformed upon firing.
This is not an example of a best case scenario, this is just a simple example. A best case scenario, would be a gun that was set up to specifically shoot this load. Also, if I specifically set up a gun to shoot TSS at a coyote, I would be using a min of 1 oz and probably a 1.5 oz, to fill that pattern better. Now when it comes to buffer, it serves more purpose than simply preventing deformation in lead rounds, it also feels in the void spaces in between the shot, and allows the round a more solid platform to launch from, and allowing the shot to flow more fluidly through the choke, this in turn produces a more uniform shot string and produces better patterns. Also different buffers affect different shot types very differently. An example would be that PSB works very well with tungsten shot, but not very well with lead at all. Another example is BPI's #47 mix buffer, it works extremely well with lead, but not well at all with tungsten shot. As well, different buffers have different effects on pressure all together. So there are a lot better scenarios, than just the simple example that's been posted.
Originally Posted By: huntschoolI am just going to throw this in because I can and I have a good bit of experience with this area.....
Many have mentioned the chokes they have bought and the constrictions those chokes list..... Well what number are those constrictions based off.... I can answer that... they are based off general bore diam. from the various mfg's. Not that those measurements are always exact and when it comes to getting pattern efficiency from a shotgun the true bore is what is the base number.
It only takes a few thousandths to change a choke dramatically. Think of it like changing powder charges by the gr when reloading... 1 gr can make a heck of a difference. Same with bullets. But no one in this discussion or many others like it has said much at all about the relationship of the choke's restriction to the actual size of the bore.
I know some live pigeon shooters who want their chokes within.0001 of dimension in each barrel.... this is a game where $5000.00 can be won or lost on one bird.... I can also remember way back in the day (early 1960's) when my Dad sent two Remington Model 11's down to somewhere in the swamp lands of South Carolina to have the barrels "worked" to shoot buck shot which at the time was all you could deer hunt with in New Jersey(single 0, Double 00 and Trip 000, then along came #1) any way when those guns came back they would both put 6 pellets, at least, in a "6" circle at 50 yards.
6 .33 caliber lead pellets in that little space is pretty devastating.
Choke is important but I dont think how chokes (screw in) work is something a lot of people are paying attention to relevant to what loads they are shooting.
If I were going to mess with producing a really good shotgun for predator hunting I would start with Remington 1100 or God forbid one of those over priced Bennelli's
At that point I would have the barrel back bored to about .735-.740 then I would send that gun to Briley or one of the custom choke makers with instruction as to what performance I wanted with what load.. (likely send them the load to test with).
Now... the outcome will be the exact performance you want with either lead, heavy or TTS....
I agree with this to an extent. I've got a lot of experience and knowledge, in dealing with bore diameter and constrictions and how they affect patterns. Basically all exit diameters of chokes are not the same, and will ultimately depend upon he bore diameter. There are huge differences in standard bore diameters, amongst 12 gauges, by different manufacturers. As said, these can vari slightly from gun to gun, but a Benelli 12 ga has an underbore diameter of .723", a standard Rem, such as an 870 has a more standard 12 ga bore diameter of .729", and a mossberg 835 has an overbore diameter of .776". All that said, a choke with an exit diameter of .660" will pattern very differently from each of these gun's, using the same load, simply because the constriction that that a .660 places on each bore is drastically different.
This is not an example of a best case scenario, this is just a simple example. A best case scenario, would be a gun that was set up to specifically shoot this load. Also, if I specifically set up a gun to shoot TSS at a coyote, I would be using a min of 1 oz and probably a 1.5 oz, to fill that pattern better. Now when it comes to buffer, it serves more purpose than simply preventing deformation in lead rounds, it also feels in the void spaces in between the shot, and allows the round a more solid platform to launch from, and allowing the shot to flow more fluidly through the choke, this in turn produces a more uniform shot string and produces better patterns. Also different buffers affect different shot types very differently. An example would be that PSB works very well with tungsten shot, but not very well with lead at all. Another example is BPI's #47 mix buffer, it works extremely well with lead, but not well at all with tungsten shot. As well, different buffers have different effects on pressure all together. So there are a lot better scenarios, than just the simple example that's been posted.
Originally Posted By: huntschoolI am just going to throw this in because I can and I have a good bit of experience with this area.....
Many have mentioned the chokes they have bought and the constrictions those chokes list..... Well what number are those constrictions based off.... I can answer that... they are based off general bore diam. from the various mfg's. Not that those measurements are always exact and when it comes to getting pattern efficiency from a shotgun the true bore is what is the base number.
It only takes a few thousandths to change a choke dramatically. Think of it like changing powder charges by the gr when reloading... 1 gr can make a heck of a difference. Same with bullets. But no one in this discussion or many others like it has said much at all about the relationship of the choke's restriction to the actual size of the bore.
I know some live pigeon shooters who want their chokes within.0001 of dimension in each barrel.... this is a game where $5000.00 can be won or lost on one bird.... I can also remember way back in the day (early 1960's) when my Dad sent two Remington Model 11's down to somewhere in the swamp lands of South Carolina to have the barrels "worked" to shoot buck shot which at the time was all you could deer hunt with in New Jersey(single 0, Double 00 and Trip 000, then along came #1) any way when those guns came back they would both put 6 pellets, at least, in a "6" circle at 50 yards.
6 .33 caliber lead pellets in that little space is pretty devastating.
Choke is important but I dont think how chokes (screw in) work is something a lot of people are paying attention to relevant to what loads they are shooting.
If I were going to mess with producing a really good shotgun for predator hunting I would start with Remington 1100 or God forbid one of those over priced Bennelli's
At that point I would have the barrel back bored to about .735-.740 then I would send that gun to Briley or one of the custom choke makers with instruction as to what performance I wanted with what load.. (likely send them the load to test with).
Now... the outcome will be the exact performance you want with either lead, heavy or TTS....
I agree with this to an extent. I've got a lot of experience and knowledge, in dealing with bore diameter and constrictions and how they affect patterns. Basically all exit diameters of chokes are not the same, and will ultimately depend upon he bore diameter. There are huge differences in standard bore diameters, amongst 12 gauges, by different manufacturers. As said, these can vari slightly from gun to gun, but a Benelli 12 ga has an underbore diameter of .723", a standard Rem, such as an 870 has a more standard 12 ga bore diameter of .729", and a mossberg 835 has an overbore diameter of .776". All that said, a choke with an exit diameter of .660" will pattern very differently from each of these gun's, using the same load, simply because the constriction that that a .660 places on each bore is drastically different.
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