TSS Round 2

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Originally Posted By: ANF HunterSo "at 60 yards" best case 25 pellets in 33" diameter pattern would amount to 1 hit per 32 square inches. The 78.5 square inches afforded by a 10" circle would net 2.5 hits at 60 yards, call it 3, with a uniform pattern density of 1 hit per 32sq in. I understand that we're talking a 7/8 oz load here, and whatever choke that example pattern was fired through might not have been ideal for whatever purpose, but i would call 3 hits in a 10 circle woefully inadequate to be shooting at live game and expecting to kill it. if you could double the amount of hits to 50 in 33" at 60 yards, a uniform pattern density of 1 hit per 16 sq in. would result in 5 hits.... this would cost considerably more than a 7/8 oz load though, and you'd still have a $5 shotgun shell of questionable effectiveness at 60 yards. of course this is all just speculation, but hopefully it can illustrate how difficult it can be to get a really great pattern density/energy combination at extended shotgun range. i'm not here to advocate for lead or tss either way, except for the fact that i'm just too cheap to buy the tungsten. also, i could be wrong, but i don't think that larger tss shot would react as possitively to being buffered in the same way that lead would, since in theory it should not be deformed upon firing.

This is not an example of a best case scenario, this is just a simple example. A best case scenario, would be a gun that was set up to specifically shoot this load. Also, if I specifically set up a gun to shoot TSS at a coyote, I would be using a min of 1 oz and probably a 1.5 oz, to fill that pattern better. Now when it comes to buffer, it serves more purpose than simply preventing deformation in lead rounds, it also feels in the void spaces in between the shot, and allows the round a more solid platform to launch from, and allowing the shot to flow more fluidly through the choke, this in turn produces a more uniform shot string and produces better patterns. Also different buffers affect different shot types very differently. An example would be that PSB works very well with tungsten shot, but not very well with lead at all. Another example is BPI's #47 mix buffer, it works extremely well with lead, but not well at all with tungsten shot. As well, different buffers have different effects on pressure all together. So there are a lot better scenarios, than just the simple example that's been posted.


Originally Posted By: huntschoolI am just going to throw this in because I can and I have a good bit of experience with this area.....

Many have mentioned the chokes they have bought and the constrictions those chokes list..... Well what number are those constrictions based off.... I can answer that... they are based off general bore diam. from the various mfg's. Not that those measurements are always exact and when it comes to getting pattern efficiency from a shotgun the true bore is what is the base number.

It only takes a few thousandths to change a choke dramatically. Think of it like changing powder charges by the gr when reloading... 1 gr can make a heck of a difference. Same with bullets. But no one in this discussion or many others like it has said much at all about the relationship of the choke's restriction to the actual size of the bore.

I know some live pigeon shooters who want their chokes within.0001 of dimension in each barrel.... this is a game where $5000.00 can be won or lost on one bird.... I can also remember way back in the day (early 1960's) when my Dad sent two Remington Model 11's down to somewhere in the swamp lands of South Carolina to have the barrels "worked" to shoot buck shot which at the time was all you could deer hunt with in New Jersey(single 0, Double 00 and Trip 000, then along came #1) any way when those guns came back they would both put 6 pellets, at least, in a "6" circle at 50 yards.
6 .33 caliber lead pellets in that little space is pretty devastating.

Choke is important but I dont think how chokes (screw in) work is something a lot of people are paying attention to relevant to what loads they are shooting.

If I were going to mess with producing a really good shotgun for predator hunting I would start with Remington 1100 or God forbid one of those over priced Bennelli's

At that point I would have the barrel back bored to about .735-.740 then I would send that gun to Briley or one of the custom choke makers with instruction as to what performance I wanted with what load.. (likely send them the load to test with).

Now... the outcome will be the exact performance you want with either lead, heavy or TTS....

I agree with this to an extent. I've got a lot of experience and knowledge, in dealing with bore diameter and constrictions and how they affect patterns. Basically all exit diameters of chokes are not the same, and will ultimately depend upon he bore diameter. There are huge differences in standard bore diameters, amongst 12 gauges, by different manufacturers. As said, these can vari slightly from gun to gun, but a Benelli 12 ga has an underbore diameter of .723", a standard Rem, such as an 870 has a more standard 12 ga bore diameter of .729", and a mossberg 835 has an overbore diameter of .776". All that said, a choke with an exit diameter of .660" will pattern very differently from each of these gun's, using the same load, simply because the constriction that that a .660 places on each bore is drastically different.
 
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I have blue dot, long shot and steel, feferal 3 1/2 new hulls 209a ,bp gas seals x12x fs12 #47 buffer,cork,felt 20ga.filler cushion s,roll crimpers and such. Can you give me a idea of how your making your TSS shells? Say 12ga. 15/8 oz.with roll crimp around 1250 fps.
 
Originally Posted By: Duane davenportI have blue dot, long shot and steel, feferal 3 1/2 new hulls 209a ,bp gas seals x12x fs12 #47 buffer,cork,felt 20ga.filler cushion s,roll crimpers and such. Can you give me a idea of how your making your TSS shells? Say 12ga. 15/8 oz.with roll crimp around 1250 fps.

You have to develop specific loads, you can't just throw components together haphazardly. It takes plenty of studying and reading, and knowledge of previous loads and their pressures and velocities to give you something to base a new load off of. Once you decide on a load, the next step should really be having it tested for safe pressures. Once you have a safe load then you work towards a gun choke combo. A lot is attributed to experience and bench time.
 
I guess that is just what I am asking. For a 935 Mossberg with a polished barrel . what would you use to load 15/8 #2 TSS? I am willing to buy say a tps wad if I do not already have it.
 
Originally Posted By: Duane davenportI guess that is just what I am asking. For a 935 Mossberg with a polished barrel . what would you use to load 15/8 #2 TSS? I am willing to buy say a tps wad if I do not already have it.

Specific load data is not going to be given out readily on a public forum. There is to much time and money involved to be handing it out all willy nilly. I will however be glad to help someone develop a load of their own.

If I do end up selling TSS to some of you guys, I do plan to have some load data available.
 
The TSS #2 shot BC question got me to thinking about showing the difference between the different densities of #2 shot.

I had to change the gel penetration to get the speeds and energies to all come out to 59.8 yards for the target distance.

All of these #2 pellets start out at 1350 fps.

#1-Steel #2 shot, 1.07" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 2.13 energy, 522 fps at 59.8 yards

#2-Lead #2 shot, 2.38" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 4.75 energy, 660 fps at 59.8 yards

#3-Rem HD #2 shot, 2.82" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 5.69 energy, 691 fps at 59.8 yards

#4-Fed HW #2 shot, 4.17" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 8.81 energy, 770 fps at 59.8 yards

#5-TSS #2 shot, 5.56" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 12.18 energy, 826 fps at 59.8 yards

Look at the speed, energy and penetration on the #4 Federal Heavyweight shot and the #5 TSS shot.

If you can find any of the 3" Federal Heavyweight #2 shot waterfowl loads they are a great coyote load. These shells are no longer being made but if you find any they are a great load. NOT the Federal High Density loads!

I think Federal should have made their Heavyweight coyote loads with #2 Heavyweight shot not the BB Heavyweight shot. 1-1/2 oz of HW #2 has about 28 more pellets per shell than the HW BB loads have.

In real world results the lead shot does not get as good of penetration as it shows on this KPY Ballistic program. The gel penetration is figured off of a pellet that stays round. Since lead shot deforms some when the shell is fired and deforms when it would hit the gel the penetration numbers for lead shot are not as good as they would appear to be.



 
Bob hi I am new on the forum. If l figure out how to I want to post a picture of a large Ohio yote .I shot here in Ohio. I really enjoyed reading your post . do you use steel powder in your TSS loads?
 
OK, so BS all you said was a repeat of what I said. Thats good business babble. I am not sure where your experience is based or really how much you have on loads other then sales pitch on this TTS stuff. Bring me up to date on your back ground and perhaps you can peak my interest. However as a woodcock and grouse hunter I must say what you said about your #9 shot pretty well turned me off.... Sounded like mush birds with a good hit at normal range...

If one wants to settle this discussion I would suggest some conversation with Ton Roster. I dont guess either of you guys have the experience he has.... and there are others.

Just sayin.....
 
Originally Posted By: Duane davenportBob hi I am new on the forum. If l figure out how to I want to post a picture of a large Ohio yote .I shot here in Ohio. I really enjoyed reading your post . do you use steel powder in your TSS loads?

Sir nobody is going to tell you data. Bob himself said earlier on he cannot give out Hal's load data.
 
Ohh come on now don't tease him. Give him the load data, barrel and choke that drops deer being chased by dogs at 80 yards in tracks.
 
Originally Posted By: Infidel 762Ohh come on now don't tease him. Give him the load data, barrel and choke that drops deer being chased by dogs at 80 yards in tracks.

Sir there is an unspoken code of trust/ethics between between these tss load developers and the hunters that shoot the/their shot. Basically if you bought shot that We was selling and I gave you load data from test We had done, I'd ask you to keep that load info to yourself and not share. There has been a lot of time and money spent to develope loads within safe pressures to just go handing out like candy. The person gets the load info as they purchase the shot. Turkey hunters seem to follow this with ease as they know the time and effort it's took to brin tss this far.

And for those of you that doubt about tss. I will say, turkey hunters didn't believe at first either.
 
Originally Posted By: huntschoolOK, so BS all you said was a repeat of what I said. Thats good business babble. I am not sure where your experience is based or really how much you have on loads other then sales pitch on this TTS stuff. Bring me up to date on your back ground and perhaps you can peak my interest. However as a woodcock and grouse hunter I must say what you said about your #9 shot pretty well turned me off.... Sounded like mush birds with a good hit at normal range...

If one wants to settle this discussion I would suggest some conversation with Ton Roster. I dont guess either of you guys have the experience he has.... and there are others.

Just sayin.....

Sir, with a random post like this we need more information. You didn't specifically direct your post towards any individual, and you didn't quote anyone, so we don't know who you are talking to other than the fact that your post shows as a response to derbyacresbob. So to answer your question(s) we will need more information from you.
 
Originally Posted By: BirdsandspursOriginally Posted By: Infidel 762Ohh come on now don't tease him. Give him the load data, barrel and choke that drops deer being chased by dogs at 80 yards in tracks.

Sir there is an unspoken code of trust/ethics between between these tss load developers and the hunters that shoot the/their shot. Basically if you bought shot that We was selling and I gave you load data from test We had done, I'd ask you to keep that load info to yourself and not share. There has been a lot of time and money spent to develope loads within safe pressures to just go handing out like candy. The person gets the load info as they purchase the shot. Turkey hunters seem to follow this with ease as they know the time and effort it's took to brin tss this far.

And for those of you that doubt about tss. I will say, turkey hunters didn't believe at first either.

Spare me the commentary and I will spare you the sarcasm.
 
"And for those of you that doubt about tss. I will say, turkey hunters didn't believe at first either."

For pete's sake you could kill a turkey with a shotgun shell full of rice or a thrown stick. You don't need depleted uranium or a $6 load of tss to pass through a whopping one whole inch of turkey neck.
Coyotes are quite a bit harder to kill, but regular old lead shot has been killing them dead enough for a long time. TSS - 10% performance gain for 600% price increase, with all proceeds going directly to the powdered metal sweatshops in China......
 
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