Who uses BORE GUIDES ??

coyotekillerNE....Quote:I tend to gravitate towards factual scientific information before I truly believe in something.....That begs the question....Have you ever witnessed the wind/breeze blow a bullet out of an otherwise "X" shot at 200-300 yards??? If so, you must believe the wind/breeze really exists even though you can't optically see it without the aid of smoke, flags, or other debris...There are many other "beliefs" that have not any empirical evidence to support them, but we won't go that far out in the field on that one...
 
OT, are you trying to say that cleaning rod wear is not repeatable and not observable? Not really following the wind analogy.
I'll summarize my questions into a single one.

Why is pushing a proper sized coated cleaning rod without a bore guide bad, while a copper jacketed bullet, fired at several thousand feet per second with 50,000+ psi okay for the bore? Not to mention the wear the brass would have just from being chambered.
 
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hm1996, I could definitely buy the idea that the rifling had been damaged on those old M1's. I'm guessing they were issued and or cleaned with a steel cleaning rod.
For the record, I am a HUGE believer in good cleaning rods. It goes without saying those old steel ones could scratch and scar the throat and bore.
Worse than that are the screw together brass ones. Buddy of mine was too cheap to buy a decent cleaning rod; needles to say he ended up with one of those screw together ones in pieces and stuck in his bore, ouch.
 
Originally Posted By: coyotekillerNE while a copper jacketed bullet, fired at several thousand feet per second with 50,000+ psi okay for the bore?

who said that was ok?
 
I am waiting to see where a bore guide hurts the cleaning efforts. Peace of mind in a cheap and reusable tool. Sounds logical to me!

A friend reminded me of this. Gravity will drag the jag down. Then you're dragging it across the crown continuously. And with as pivotal as crown condition can be, it's another simple part of the equation to peace of mind.

I use rod-stops too. So the jag only needs to extend far enough to let the patch fall. Yes...another piece of the equation.
 
After 7 pages of reading, heres what I gathered. For those who think a bore guide is not necessary, fine don't use one. All my rifles have guides and I will continue to use them. It takes no longer to get the proper guide out and instal than it does to get a bottle of solvent out to clean with. Cheap or expensive, makes no difference, as long as I have one to use. I have cleaned without one but wasn't pleased in doing so. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: coyotekillerNEhm1996, I could definitely buy the idea that the rifling had been damaged on those old M1's. I'm guessing they were issued and or cleaned with a steel cleaning rod.

Spot on! Most likely a jointed steel rod (as was issued in US Army)at that. There are those who promote the use of (solid) steel rods as they do not tend to pick up abrasives on their surface as do the coated rods. There is substantial evidence to support this theory, i.e., when using valve grinding compound to seat the valves in an engine, the compound is embedded in the block (the softer of the two metals) and actually grinds the valve (harder), but steel on steel has to wear the barrel more than clean plastic, especially if it cannot contact the bore.

Having said that, I choose to use the coated rod, which I clean to (hopefully) remove any abrasives between each use. I also choose to use a guide as an additional safety measure to protect the throat (or muzzle on M1's & others which are necessary to clean from muzzle). Akin to belt and suspenders? Maybe, but I sleep better at night that way.
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Regards,
hm
 
Darn. Emotions run high over whether to bore guide or not to bore guide.

No doubt they are generally good insurance for keeping everything in line while cleaning, yet I've seen some serious shooters who are so meticulous about cleaning a rifle without a bore guide that no issues ever arise.

In contrast, there are some people who cram rods, brushes, and jags down bores as hard and as fast as humanely possibly, and for them, using a bore guide requires two whacks on a steel anvil with a rubber hammer to tear it up instead of the customary one rap.
 
The best method I've found for cleaning a bore that's really dirty is to use one of my coated cleaning rods chucked in a cordless drill. Soak a brush down with a good lathering of Shooters Choice and 10w-30 motor oil. Just turn it on high and run it up and down the bore for 5 minutes or so re lathering every 30 seconds or so. The bore is a mirror when I get done.






















j/k.....figured we needed to lighten the mood.
 
Originally Posted By: coyotekillerNEThe best method I've found for cleaning a bore that's really dirty is to use one of my coated cleaning rods chucked in a cordless drill. Soak a brush down with a good lathering of Shooters Choice and 10w-30 motor oil. Just turn it on high and run it up and down the bore for 5 minutes or so re lathering every 30 seconds or so. The bore is a mirror when I get done.


i use a 110 volt power drill. turns faster. takes half the time.
 
I had one of the Hoppe's Bore lights that had the 90 deg bend in the glass tube. It stopped working for some reason. So I went out and bought a new bore light. This one is made out of aluminum metal and it's very Bright. It's so bright that I really can't see the lands and groves with the light stuck right into the end of the barrel and looking though the chamber. Maybe I can put some wax paper over the bulb so that the light is not so intense. But all I can see is a bright light and glare off the inside of the barrel when I try to use the light to inspect the inside of the barrel.

I finally got my new Dewey 32" long coated rod and the 30" long Dewey coated rod that came with the Dewey AR15 Kit. The 32" long rod has a female threaded end while the 30" rod has a male threaded end on the rod. Why do they do this? Why can't they all be the same? Grrrrr.

Now I need adaptors to make my brushes and jags work.

Dewey claims that the the female threaded end on the rod makes the coating 5 to 9 time thicker and that's suppose to be good. Then they say that the may threaded ends makes for a stronger connection. Yet they turn around and make you use a SMBA adaptor so that you can screw on a male threaded bronze brush. Would that not make the connection to the brush WEAKER?

Then there are so many different thread sizes to contend with. 5/40, 8/32 and another 6/32 or something similar.

My big complaint is that they don't tell you precicely what the end of the rods are going to be. are they male or female thread and what's the thread count and diameter of the threads? I had a terrible head ace yesterday going though my order and trying to figure out if I got everything that I ordered.

I did like the Rod Guide that came with the AR15 Cleaning Kit. There was another Kit within this Kit. The chamber cleaning kit for the AR15. I think that they failed to send me one of the clear plastic tubes that I wanted. I'll have to call them or email them and figure that one out.

But I did like the way the chamber bore guide worked in the AR15. It's a nice solid connection. I also got some of the Professional type Parker Hale Jags in 22 cal with 8/32 male threads. They make a lot more contact with the inside of the barrel than the loop type jogs or the pointed type jags. So far they work pretty good.

I have a Hoppe's Universal Bore Guide that I used on my Rem Model 660 222 cal. I use a 32" long Dewey Coated rod in .20 cal to clean the barrel on the Rem. The rod is long enough for the rifle type brush to exit the barrel fully so that I can pull the brush back though the rifle again and again. I did go ahead and order a copper eliminator 36" long rod which should be here next week. The 32" long rod is long enough to clear the end of the barrel but I'm hitting my knuckles on the wooden stock before the rod handle bottoms out into the bore guide. A little bit longer rod may solve the problem

Dewey needs to work on their catalog and make things easier to comprehend. Some places they tell you if the threads are male or female but then don't tell you the thread size or count. They have two paper catalogs that they sent me with my package. One was dated Jan 2014. But I went to their web site last night and found a PDF catalog that I printed out on my home printer. That catalog was dated Jan 2012? [beeep]? I would think that they would be the same or at lease for the same year. SMH!

I just wish I had gone to Brownell instead. I found where they have some 22 cal brushes in Std. thread size that are female threaded and will fit directly onto the Dewey male threaded cleaning rods. BTW what is Std thread size? I thought I figured it out. I figure it's 8/32 as that was the most common THD on their products. I guess it depends on type of rod you get and the caliber that you want to clean. But for the AR15 223 cal or 22 cal I thought it was 8/32. But then there are some that are 5/40 threaded.

Their .22 cal copper eliminator rod 36' long says it .22 cal on one spot and then on another spot it says it's .22 - .26 cal.

What I wish that they would do is to always give the following information for each brush, jag, rod etc.

Cal, thread size, material type, length and if it's a male thread or female thread. And always give this information in the same order on each description of the item in the catalog. And then make the paper catalog and the web site match each other. That would sure make ordering from them easier. They also don't have a toll free number to call. That's a big negative. I have to pay for the call to try to talk to someone to figure out what they are trying to sell me. That really is not good IMHO.

Brownell on the other hand constantly has a pop up message wanting you to do a text chat with their sales representative. But when I try to do that their server times out more often than not and it doesn't work. If I click on the close button to close the chat dialog box it reappears every few minutes and pop up right on top of the web site that I'm trying to study! Grrr. I might seem a little irritated and I am. And it's not due to too much caffeine as I stopped drinking caffeinated coffee 5 years ago. I get frustrated when things are not in good order.

I visited the Dewey web site at least five or six times before I just finally decided to buy some stuff and if it didn't work or fit I'd just return it. I don't pay AT&T for long distance service and instead us a disposable cell phone with a pre paid account. I use the cell phone for emergencies. Well, that's what I bought it for. But I also use it from time to time to call long distance. But I don't want to have a long telephone conversation on my dime with a company's sale rep.

Is Dewey so small of a company that they can't afford to have a toll free line for sales inquiries? That's like my bait company that sells me my minnows for fishing that does not take VISA. They operate on a cash only basis. I'd don't go there very much since I like to use VISA vs cash or check.

And another thing. I found some AR15 parts on the Dewey web site but could not find them on the paper catalog that they sent to me in the mail or on the paper catalog that I found on their web site and printed off as a PDF file. I ordered a cam pin, take down pin and a pivot pin for my AR15. They sell them for $5 each.

I went to a local gun store to buy some spare parts for the AR15. Things like the extractor and it's spring and "O" ring along with the fire pin retaining pin and the cam pin were included in a little plastic sack and they wanted about $50 for the kit. I said I'll pass on that price. So I'm going to be doing some research to find a place that will sell those parts to me cheaper than that.

Bore Guides are a good thing IMHO. I didn't know about them until recently. I've cleaned my Ruger 10/22, my Remington Model 870 12 gage, and my AR15 without a bore guide and wasn't aware that I could damage the throat, chamber, bore or crown of the rifle by not using a good bore guide. Now I even have a bore guide to put on the end of my Ruger 10/22 barrel. I got that bore guide from Brownells along with a barrel vice and a Parker Hale type Brass Jag in .22 cal with 8/32" male threads. But it will not fit onto my Dewey 30" long coated rod with the male threads on the end of the rod unless I use the SBMA thing. SBMA basically has female threads on both ends of a short brass tube that's female threaded on both ends. I think it's 8/32 thread on both female threads but I'm not sure right now. It could be 5/40 on one end and 8/32 on the other. They should scribe the thread size and diameter on each end of these adaptors and also on the rods and other jags and brushes. Some of my jags actually do have the size inscribed on the brass base of the brush or jag. Well maybe it's just the caliber numbers like 22 cal or 17 cal.

I've got several .17 cal pellet guns and pistols. These I clean without a bore guide and use two different cleaning kits. One is a Hoppe's .17 cal kit and the other is a Gamo Cleaning Kit. Of course one would use a male threaded rod while the other one has a female threaded rod end. Grrrrrr.

I have brushes that won't fit onto any of my cleaning rods. I have no clue what size they are or their thread counts. I just stuck them inside a plastic zip loc bag and labeled them Misc.

Now let's talk about coated rods vs plain stainless steel, aluminum or brass rods. Dewey claims that their coated rods won't pick up debris in the coating and do damage to the inside of the barrel. Some guys claim that the coated rods will have fine particles of metal embed into the coating and then that will act as an abrasive on the surface of the coated rod and do damage to the inside of your gun's barrel. Now that's quite possible.

I'm not sure what the Dewey Copper Eliminator Rods are made from. But I'll find out in a few more days when I get one and take a look at it. I do think that I'll like the longer 36" length when I use it on my Remington Model 660 222 cal as it will help save my knuckles from hitting the stock.




Originally Posted By: ackleymanThe term "bore guide" is perhaps too ambiguous. The term "Rod Guide" is closer to a correct item description.

Keep the rod centered in the bore or pay the price. The rod flexes, so don't power drive the rod through the bore.

I have wore the lands from 5-8 o'clock slick from the wear of a coated rod and polished steel rod.

Ignorance is bliss....
 
That's pretty much what I always thought. But I figured why take a chance and went with the program and bought three bore guides. It makes me feel a better even if they don't really protect the barrel like they are said to do.

I do think that they help getting the rod started into the end of the bore of the gun and they help center the rod when it starts going into the chamber and throat of the bore.

I can see where the rod might flex and touch the inside of the barrel. I went with coated rods to try to protect the inside of my barrel.
I've been using a .17 to .270 cal Winchester one piece coated steel rod 26" long with a swivel handle for about 10 years or so now. But this week I started using some new Dewey Coated Rods and bore guides.

I've been shooting a lot more than before. I may have gone shooting three or four times a year until recently. Now I go shooting two or there times a month or more. It varies with the weather and season. Well actually I went shooting a lot more when I was younger. But that was 50 something years ago. Recently I didn't start shooting until around 2003 when I started doing more outdoor hunting. Before that I was into ice hockey and computer games and fishing and boating.

I like to hunt but don't have access to hunting lands like I used to have.

Originally Posted By: skb2706There is no magic in "rod guides". I've made a half dozen of them. Unless the guides actually held the rod the entire length of the bore it's more of a feel good thing. They don't do that regardless of who makes them the rod still will touch the bore
 
I found that the type of jag makes a big difference in the resistance to the rod going though the barrel.

The Parker Hale type jags let more of the patch clean the barrel and they patches can be put onto the jag at different angles to make the fit tighter or looser.

I've got a 20 cal Dewey Coated Rod 30" and 32" in length and found that the size of the patch makes a difference in the friction between the jag/patch and the inside of the barrel.

I can put a 2x 2 or 1.5 x 1.5 cotton square patch on the jag with the patch's side parallel to the length of the jag and the patch will slide though the barrel more easily. But if I put the patch on the jag with the pointed side first then the patch is a little bit thicker and it puts more pressure on the patch barrel interface.

A smaller patch like those used for the 22 rim fire rifle used with a loop type jag can make it harder to push the patch/jag though the barrel of my Ruger 10/22's barrel.

I think it's important to match the rod's diameter to the barrel's size too. Using a .17 rod to clean out a .270 or .243 cal rifle barrel would not be good.

I figured I'd try the .20 cal Dewey rod to clean my 222 Rem Model 660 rifle. The only other rod that I found was the AR15 Kit rod that was for .223 - .224 cal.

Some time the Dewey Catalog would describe the rod as a single cal and in other places ( web site and other price catalog) they described the same model number rod as a multiple cal rod. So it was hard for me to figure out what size rod they were selling me. Did anyone else have a problem trying to figure out what the cal of the Dewey Rods were for sale? This is why I like to buy from the local gun stores so that I can actually see what I'm buying and pick it up and look at it before I pay for it. And it's easier to return stuff to the local gun store than having to call and get Return Authorization and pay to ship it back to the online store or factory. UPS would get a work out with me returning so much stuff.

Originally Posted By: ackleymanOriginally Posted By: skb2706There is no magic in "rod guides". I've made a half dozen of them. Unless the guides actually held the rod the entire length of the bore it's more of a feel good thing. They don't do that regardless of who makes them the rod still will touch the bore

How much they touch the bore and where they touch the bore is what is critical.

Two brands of bore guides are the only ones worth considering:

Neil Jones

Lucas

What is critical about these rod guides is that there is a bushing that fits on the rod that keeps the rod centered in the rod guide so that the rod is not just flopping around inside the rear opening of the rod guide.

If you want to power drive your rod through the bore, the rod will flex and put a lot of friction on the sides of the barrel, but if you "feel" your way through the barrel with the patches and brushes gently, then you eliminate a lot of rod flex.
 
I have been shooting for 50 years, never used a bore guide and probably never will. I have never wrecked a barrel or anything else from cleaning. They never had such a thing when I started shooting. I shoot a lot of semi auto rifles, cant use bore guide on them except AR.
 
Saw this and thought about this post.... this may have already seen by most but what the heck. The bore guide part is about 6 or so paragraphs down.


Objective research on Barrel Break-in procedures

After many email requests I thought I'd repost the research I did on barrel break-in procedures. In addition I also added a short overview on Internal Ballistics 101 to help tie everything together.

This has been posted on many shooting boards over the years and has been modified as I uncover more information. This is a quick synopsis of my finding which has been generalized. I had lots of test results and data I looked through. It’s also not based on the opinions and hearsay. I set out to take an objective look of barrel break-in procedures. I wanted to find out if there was any hard fact evidence to support barrel break-in procedures or was it a waste of time. In the end all of the data I collected supported the fact that barrel break-in procedures are a waist of time and in some cases damages barrels. To research this project I spoke with a few metallurgists, originally three of our top barrel makers (Shilen, Hart and Rock) and have since talked with a handful of others including Bartlein and Broughton. I also talked with a few internal ballistic engineers and some our nation’s best gunsmiths.

A little back ground on myself. I have degrees in Engineering and Business Adminstration. I’m a data network engineer in real life. I’m an avid long range shooter and due to my knees gave up tactical competitions about 6 years ago. One of my hobbies is external ballistics and I enjoy reverse engineering new ballistic programs to see what ballistic models, mathematical calculations, formulas and algorithms the creator used. I have a pretty good knowledge on ballistics and long range shooting. By no means am I an expert, when I'm in doubt I talk with Bryan Litz. I have spent more time than I care to admit to trying to uncover the science behind the scene. With regards to this write up, I feel I've done a fairly good job with my research and conclusions. Though some may disagree with my finding which is fine.

Before blasting away at what I've written, offer insight supported by facts and test data and not hearsay or opinions. This is what I’ve tried to do. It’s ok to disagree as the more information we can get the better informed we are. Also remember my conclusions were the collective data from some of the best minds and subject matter experts in the business.

Back in the 2001/2 time frame I trashed a brand new Shilen stainless steel match barrel in under 400 rounds shooting moly coated bullets. Yes this was during the moly bullet craze and I jumped on the band wagon. Let’s just say I was not a happy camper. I live local to Shilen so after a few hand lapping jobs on the barrel which failed, Doug Shilen cut the throat section to see what was really wrong. The throat area showed the black moly ring of death which was so hard Doug could barely scrape it with the side of a flat head screwdriver. Let’s just say I’ll never shoot another moly coated bullet....ever!

After my new Shilen barrel was installed I set out to on a mission to understand this barrel break-in process and if I really needed it. After all this research my conclusion supported the fact that barrel break-in is a waist of time and effort.

Let’s talk barrel break-in shall we: I believe Kelly McMillan of McMillan rifles said it best, “This barrel break-in processes keeps us in business”. “This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your new match barrel and/or significantly decreases the barrel life”. Though I didn’t speak with Kelly on this subject I’ve read what he’s written and it mirrors my own findings.

Some barrel manufactures have now re-clarified their stance saying that a barrel break-in procedures helps to smooth the transition from the newly cut chamber into the throat area of the bore. Now there is some merit to statement except for the fact a cotton patch with bore solvent or bronze brush isn’t going to do squat to help remove any rough areas. Bullets passing down the barrel will help smooth the chamber/throat area. It may take just a couple of shots or it could take a lot, but it depends on how well the chamber/throat was cut and polished. Last I checked stainless steel and chrome moly steel is much harder than a cotton patch or bronze brush.

Speedy Gonzalez (Hall of fame bench rest shooter and one of the nation’s top gunsmiths) was a wealth of information as were the techs at Hart barrels. As Speedy says, “my $3000.00 video-bore scope doesn’t lie”. I've looked through lots of barrels at Speedy's shop while he was working here in North Texas. Looking through his bore scope I learned a lot and saw a lot of good the bad and the ugly when it comes to barrel and barrel maintenance. Speedy's video bore scope never lied. When looking through his video bore scope at the internal surfaces of trashed barrels, one thing we did see a lot of were cleaning rod marks. The cleaning rod marks showed too much cleaning with poor and improper cleaning techniques and equipment. This was also noted by the techs at Hart Barrels with regards to barrels they replaced.

There are probably less than a dozen individuals in the US that understand internal and external ballistic as well as Stan Rivenbark and Mike Rock. Stan is retired ballistic engineer from Raytheon Corporation and Mike Rock of Rock Creek Barrels. They both understood this whole internal ballistic equation more than all the others I talked with. This is because they worked on internal ballistics in their real lives, used state of the art test equipment to perform actual tests and record the actual data. They are true subject matter experts and both of their views points and explanations were very similar. A slight twist here and there and different approach but there test data and conclusion were the same. A lot of folks claim to understand all or part of the internal ballistic equation, but these people had the hard data to back up there statements and claims. I like solid test data and not opinions on what someone believes.

As I stated Stan and Mike Rock gave me some of the most detailed explanations on barrels and internal ballistics. Both were ballistic engineers and both have degrees in metallurgy (Stan has an masters in metallurgy); Mike was a ballistics engineer for the US Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. When Mike worked at Aberdeen, the US Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin strikes the primer and the round goes off. While working as a ballistic engineer for Raytheon Stan used similar equipment and processes to view and record internal ballistics though most of his work was focued around the .50 cal.

Before we begin take a step back and be objective. Ask yourself what you are trying to really accomplish by breaking in your barrel. What issues and/or problems inside the barrel need to be corrected or fixed? Now I do recommend cleaning your rifle after you purchase it to clean out all of the junk, oils and grease from the factory before shooting it, but also realize...

• The vast majority (99%) of shooters don’t own or have access to a quality bore scope to view the interior surface of their barrels.
• Without a bore scope to view the interior surface of your barrel what exactly are you trying to fix by a shoot and clean process?
• If there are burrs or machine marks from the machining process are they in the chamber, throat or barrel where are they located?
• Do the machine marks run parallel or perpendicular to the barrel finish?
• If there are high points and low points inside the barrel again where are they located?
• Does shooting and cleaning between rounds correct/fix all barrel imperfections if they exist? If yes how?
• Do you think cleaning between rounds is going to change the molecular structure of the steel or condition it in some fashion? If so, I’m/we’re all ears
• Without a bore scope again you have no idea what the actual condition of the interior barrel surface
• So far if you don’t have honest solid answers to these first few questions and you’ve been performing a barrel break-in process you’re working off a SWAG (scientific wild *** guess)
• Even if you have a bore scope can you truly identify a change in burrs or machine marks from a before or after cleaning. If so please provide detailed photograph’s

Couple more questions while I still have your attention.

• Pushing a cotton patch with solvent or a bronze brush down the barrel will do what to remove a 416 stainless steel or chromemoly metal burr or machine marks?
• Last time I checked, 416 SS or CM is much harder than a cotton patch or bronze brush and is most likely impenetrable by most bore solvents.
• Yes it will remove copper fouling caught by the metal burr, but how will it remove the metal burr?
• How many shots will it take to remove the burr or imperfection and how will you know when the barrel issues have been corrected? Is it always x-amount of shots?

Let's take a few minutes to gain a basic understanding of internal ballistics and what really happens when you pull the trigger. This will also help you to understand why you don't want to clean after every shot.

High level view of Internal Ballistics 101:

When the firing pin strikes the primer, the propellants in the primer ignites. With this initial ignition there may or may not be enough pressure to dislodge the bullet from the case (this depends on neck tension and seating depth as well as a few other variables), if there is enough pressure to dislodge the bullet, it moves forward into the lands where it stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down and out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet starts and stops as many as two times before it leaves the barrel. This is fact. Bet you didn’t know that…….neither did I!

Internal Ballistics on the brass case:

As the primer ignites the powder, pressure begins to fill the brass case. As the pressure builds the case expands to completely fill the chamber sealing off the chamber and preventing any gases from leaking around it. The pressure will also cause the brass case to move rearward pushing it flush against the bolt face. In addition the shoulder and neck area of the case will be force forward into the shoulder and neck area of the chamber. All of this pressure will have elongated and lengthen the total size and diameter of the brass case. As the bullet is moved down and out the barrel, the chamber and barrel pressure drops. The brass begins to cool and contract allowing the brass to be extracted from the chamber.

Internal Ballistics on the bullet:

As the bullet is forced from the case, it can only support a small amount of force. The force on the base of the bullet will cause it to expand. As more force is applied the bullet expansion will increase from the base of the bullet towards the bullet nose. Basically the bullet begins to stretch. In addition the bullet enters the lands and grooves of the barrel. The bullet will engrave itself to the lands and grooves as it proceeds through the barrel. The throat of the barrel takes on the majority of stress from the heat and pressure created from the firing of the round. This is why the throat area of the barrel is always the first point of barrel deterioration. Depending on the round being fired the flash point of the round going off can cause instantaneous burst in temperature upwards to 4000 degrees Fahrenheit and create a pressure spike upwards toward 60,000 PSI’s.

Why thorough cleaning between rounds is not good for a barrel:

Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent any metal-to-metal contact as well as reduce friction between two metal (bearing) surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine. If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, you’ve created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So what’s the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will cause friction which can sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping as many as two times before it leaves the barrel, that’s two places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore. Even though copper is a gilding metal it can still sheer away barrel surface in the bore when traveling at high velocities under extreme heat and pressures.

Remember it is these copper jacketed bullets passing down the barrel at high pressure and velocity that will ultimantly be the source of smoothing out those rough marks left by the chambering tool and machining process. The more bullets passing down the barrel will help smooth the barrel not cleaning it between rounds.

Cleaning between rounds especially thorough cleanings can take you back down to bare metal which can actually harm your barrel. In addition all this cleaning, done improperly with cheap bore guides and cleaning rods can scratch and damage the interior surface of your barrel. This was very prevalent in the barrels we looked at through Speed’s video bore scope. To preserve your barrel you need to avoid cleaning down to bare metal. A light wash of copper fouling in the barrel is not always a bad thing, as the copper fills in a lot of the micro groves left by the machining process. You don’t want layers of copper which effect accuracy, but filling in the micro grooves can be a good thing.

So what do we need to really take care of our new rifle and/or barrel?

According to Mike Rock and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. Some barrel manufactures will void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it can be when applied to bullets. Never shoot moly coated bullets as they are bad juju for the throat of a rifle.

There are numerous ways to achieve a good burnish in your barrel such as just shooting a long string of rounds without cleaning. I like Mike Rock’s method and have been using it on all my match grade and factory barrels.

When Mike re-barreled my tactical rifle with one of his 5R barrels, I talked with him about my new barrel, any barrel break-in process and how to get the best performance out of my new barrel. This is what he had to say. When he makes a new barrel, he hand laps the barrels with a lead lap. Most if not all custom barrel makers hand lap their barrels. Mike takes his barrels a step further to provide a pre-burnished finish. He uses two products from Sentry Solutions. One product is called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coat until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a second product for Sentry Solutions product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore. He also included a bottle of each product when he shipped my rifle back which is what I’ve been using on all my other rifles.

With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regiment of cleaning and if you have to use JB’s or flitz type products, go very easy with them as they can clean the interior barrel surface back down to bare metal removing your burnish. Never clean so well you clean back down to bare metal surface.

He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, don’t be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don’t let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.

What’s my cleaning regiment you might ask? I’m not one who puts his firearms up without cleaning them; it’s what I was taught growing up. I'm also not one who wants to spend a lot of time and effort cleaning so my process is pretty simple but highly effective. I use only a Lucas bore guide and Dewey cleaning rods, something I learned from Speedy. Most other bore guides will allow your cleaning rod to flex inside the barrel which can scratch the barrel surface...not a Lucas bore guide.

I clean my rifles using WipeOut Accelerator and WipeOut foam. I use a few patches soaked in WipeOut Accelerator just to push the bulk of the gunk out of the barrel and then give it a shot of Wipeout foam. Let sit for 3-hours or so and patch it out. If I know it will be a few weeks before I get to the range or lease I’ll run a single patch of kroil oil down the barrel followed by a couple of dry patches. The process is quick and simple and works well for me. I have one barrel on my sons Win Featherweight where we need use a nylon brush with a little JB’s to get most of the fouling out as it’s a stubborn factory barrel. I’m considering using Tubbs Final Finish on this barrel.

For badly fouling factory rifles, I know of quite a few folks who have used Tubbs Final Finish with very good to outstanding results. TFF are lapping compound impregnated bullets you shoot down your barrel which can really help smooth out and polish a factory barrel.

I’ve used my buddies bore scope quite a few times to see just how clean my process gets my rifles. My Bartlein and Rock barrels hardly ever foul so I rarely if ever see any copper fouling in those barrels. My DPMS and Tikka both show very light and faint traces of fouling here and there after cleaning. I figure that fouling is just filling in some of those micro grooves as well as I know I have a good burnish in the barrel and I don’t give it a second thought as they all shoot lights out!

I hope that helps folks to understand what I’m trying to say.

Last edited by Jeff in TX; 05-08-2013 at 05:46 PM.

Jeff

Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

John 3: 1-21

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I use the Sinclair guides. They seal off the chamber so cleaning fluids like wipeout doesn't get into the action.

I could care less what people think about the use guide rods. Wether they actually keep you damaging the bore or not doesn't matter. For me, its a 15 dollar piece of plastic that makes cleaning easier, keeps excess foam or liquids out of the action and assists me in keeping the rod straight while cleaning.
 
I use Lucas bore guides religiously on on my rifles every time I clean, but I always run the last patch through without the bore guide. That patch will come out dirty every time, because it cleans the chamber.
 


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