Why the trend to fast twist heavy bullets in .223?

Originally Posted By: pahntr760Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeOriginally Posted By: BOBTAILSI love my 8 twist and 75 gr amaxes for long range pdoging and chucking. Way better than the 40-55 grains when your talking beyond 500 yards IMHO.

Rob, I haven't seen a pdog field in years. Hopefully in the near future I can make it happen, as it's time to break the 800-1000 yd marker.
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I'm working on it, fellas. Not promising accommodations like Tim T...but I'm hoping to get in with some ranchers whom need PDogs gone! Stay tuned...

Ya accomidations can usually be handled if the shooting is good. Dakota is on my list someday too
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Go to the extremes and you'll see why. Zero at 100, 10mph full value
.224 35gr @ 3800fps, .134bc
500yds has 74.3" of drop, 74.8" of windage, 81.2lbs of energy.
1000yds has 1004.2" of drop, 355.1" of windage, 27.9lbs of energy

.224 90gr @ 2700fps, .551bc
500yds has 56" of drop, 17.7" of windage, 752lbs of energy.
1000yds has 353.1" of drop, 84.7" of windage, 358.8lbs of energy.

Again, the extreme ends, as you close gaps, you close gaps, but this is why heavy, coyote is still dead at 1,000 for that high master with perfect conditions.
 
Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeSince this thread was about .223s only and my AI'ed version is still a .223, I'll play....

My 75 A-max not V-max run right at 3000 fps , the choice is clear for colony varmints at 500-600 yards.

My apologizes for using the wrong bullet terminology. Still the same BC of .435 now with a drop of about 53.1" at 550 yards (200 yard zero) and 61.4" from your 223AI with a 100 yard zero at 3000 fps. Energy of 614 ft-lbs.

As I stated earlier, with a conservative velocity of 2900 fps from a 6MM Rem and a 200 yard zero, at 550 yards the bullet would drop @ 59.9". Energy would be 602 ft-lbs. Sighted at 100 yards, the numbers would be 69.2" drop, and the same 602 ft-lbs.

If we're now going to play the AI game, I just happen to have a 6MM REM AI. I've easily seen 3300 FPS from the same 87 grain Hornady bullet from the rifle. With a 200 yard zero the drop would be 44.5" - and 50.7" with a 100 yard zero. Energy of 823 ft-lbs.

For easier comparing: (223Ai - 53.1" (200) - 61.4" (100) - 614 ft-lbs).

I have a friend who has a 243 Win AI and he routinely gets 3200 fps from it. 200 yard zero - 47.8" drop. 100 yard zero - 54.6" of drop. Energy at 550 of 764 ft-lbs.

With all AI choices, the significant differences still exist under all scenarios. Want to compare your 375/50 BMG with my 50 BMG? Or is this just a standard 223 Rem thread and any comparisons to it are thus invalid and we simply have to take someones word at face value that "the choice is clear for colony varmints at 500-600 yards", and hence it is the "bestest"?

I'll still take a 6MM in any comparable version - any day, over the 223 REM in any comparable version for long range shooting. But being different is what makes horse racing valuable for some people, which definitely works for me as long as we're not comparing quarter horses to thoroughbreds in the foot race.

If we were talking .224's or 6MM's at 800-1000 yards as being the people's choice, I'd pick a 6.5MM bullet and cartridge and not look back.
 
.243 90gr Berger match, .411bc @3200
500yds, 41.5" drop, 19.6" wind, 881.1lbs energy
1000yds, 296.3" drop, 99.4" wind, 330.4lbs energy

Compare those numbers to the 223 with 90's and you'll also notice why heavy and high BC is nice, the 223 actually has less wind drift and more energy at a grand. These are both 90gr Berger target boolits.

Now, put that .224 90gr Berger in a 22-250 at 3100 and the 90 243 doesn't win anywhere. Honestly the 223 stats should probably use the 80's, the 90 really pushes it, and if I'm using a 243 I'm going 105, 107, or 115, but for what is being asked, that's the BIG picture.
 
Originally Posted By: Winny FanOriginally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeSince this thread was about .223s only and my AI'ed version is still a .223, I'll play....

My 75 A-max not V-max run right at 3000 fps , the choice is clear for colony varmints at 500-600 yards.

My apologizes for using the wrong bullet terminology.


No problem. I only mentioned it as I knew you would have to reply to my remarks ...grin

I will add I was not the first to bring up the AI version, just added to it.

The numbers game can and will be played to the end of time.

I read this whole thread over a couple times and wanted to refrain from commenting, but what fun would that be ?
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Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeOriginally Posted By: Winny FanOriginally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeSince this thread was about .223s only and my AI'ed version is still a .223, I'll play....

My 75 A-max not V-max run right at 3000 fps , the choice is clear for colony varmints at 500-600 yards.

My apologizes for using the wrong bullet terminology.


No problem. I only mentioned it as I knew you would have to reply to my remarks ...grin

I will add I was not the first to bring up the AI version, just added to it.

The numbers game can and will be played to the end of time.

I read this whole thread over a couple times and wanted to refrain from commenting, but what fun would that be ?
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Originally Posted By: calling4life.243 90gr Berger match, .411bc @3200
500yds, 41.5" drop, 19.6" wind, 881.1lbs energy
1000yds, 296.3" drop, 99.4" wind, 330.4lbs energy

Compare those numbers to the 223 with 90's and you'll also notice why heavy and high BC is nice, the 223 actually has less wind drift and more energy at a grand. These are both 90gr Berger target boolits.

Now, put that .224 90gr Berger in a 22-250 at 3100 and the 90 243 doesn't win anywhere. Honestly the 223 stats should probably use the 80's, the 90 really pushes it, and if I'm using a 243 I'm going 105, 107, or 115, but for what is being asked, that's the BIG picture.



Obviously - Any comparison of two different bore diameters with equal weight bullets always favors the smaller bore diameter. That is the ONLY picture ever painted on that subject until you make the velocities from the smaller cartridge become ridiculously low due to case capacity as you go up in bullet weights.

Tim and i were comparing 75 and 87 grain bullets in the two cartridges mentioned. In my discussion with Tim I considered realistically going even heavier in the 6MM range than I did, but I shoot a lot of the 87 grain bullets in my 6MM/.243 rifles for coyotes on down, so I used it.

So hopefully no one accuses me of turning this into a 6mm/.243" versus a .224" thread, I own a bunch of .224" diameter rifles and like all of them for their intended purposes.
 
Why not have the option to be able to shoot light or heavy bullets? In my 223ai it shoots the 55gr NBT's and 75gr AMAX equally well.If I go yote hunting I'll grab a handful of the 55gr pills.I feel like plunking steel or paper out there I'll grab the heavier pills.It's nice to have a choice.
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Originally Posted By: BeluebowWhy not have the option to be able to shoot light or heavy bullets? In my 223ai it shoots the 55gr NBT's and 75gr AMAX equally well.If I go yote hunting I'll grab a handful of the 55gr pills.I feel like plunking steel or paper out there I'll grab the heavier pills.It's nice to have a choice.
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Ding ding ding we have a winner. More choices! Faster twist is always better in my eyes.
 
Wow! I go for a while, and look what happens.
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Honestly, lots of good points.

So... how far do YOU feel comfortable shooting at a coyote? At what point does the .223 run out of enough energy to put one down with a good hit. Does it not concern you that if you even make a good wind call and hit him right where you want to, your bullet will fail to do it's job because it has slowed down too much? I'll give an example...

I recently (Jan) spotted for my brother and son while they shot a whitetail doe at around 770 yards. My brother was armed with a .338 Lapua mag. shooting 300 grain VLD's. My son was shooting a 300 RUM with a 180 grain Nosler. We were at my range, and had been hammering the 600-800 yard gongs. After a short break in the shooting a doe comes out of the brush close to the gong and we ranged her at 770. Well my brother checks his Kestrel, spins the turret, I give him a wind call on the 800 flag, and the send it call. At the shot she has little reaction except to move a few feet into a small thicket. After a few minutes my son says that he has a clear shot at her shoulder, as he's at a slightly different angle to our position. He checks his app on his phone, adjusts the turret and sends a round. The doe just turns and trots a few yards in to the brush out of sight. When we find her the 338 has hit her slightly above centerline just behind the shoulder. The RUM hit a small limb and hit her amidships. The 338 had slipped between the ribs, poked a hole in the edge of both lungs and exited putting a perfect .338 hole through a offside rib. The RUM had sliced the diaphragm and sliced a big part of the liver and left about a .50 caliber hole in the backside. Both shots were probably lethal hits, just not what you would have expected from two cannons.
 
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why not have a fast twist? Isn't it better to be able to shoot 40-80 instead of 40-60? For anyone who has to deal with lead free hunting laws or wants to take deer/hogs the fast twist is great. The bullets are longer so 1:12 doesn't work on 60 gr. I shoot 55 gr sp for dogs and jack rabbits and 62 gr tsx for lead free and hogs. Both have the same trajectory within about .2 and same POI in my gun. Makes my .223 very versatile. I don't care about anything past 300 yards like some of you guys do.
 
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I'll throw my hat in. My choice in .223, 100 to 200 yards a 50 gr. blitzking 200-400 68 bthp, or 69 smk, 400 to 600 80 gr. amax. If your opinion is based on the numbers you crunched and the threads you read, well that's a start. You need real world experience. Shoot some 55 gr. at 600 and shoot some 80 gr. at 600. You will see the difference immediately.
 
Its funny....

For years we begged for faster twist 223 rifles from the manufacturers. Now that they're here, we ask why...
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Just another reason for a fast twist. Stumbled upon this bulk box at Cabelas today. Now if I could get that AI reamer to show up...

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"So... how far do YOU feel comfortable shooting at a coyote? At what point does the .223 run out of enough energy to put one down with a good hit. Does it not concern you that if you even make a good wind call and hit him right where you want to, your bullet will fail to do it's job because it has slowed down too much? "

Depends on the bullet, the critter and the range.
The 75AM blows good holes in chucks in the 5-650 range. At the same distance, I watched a lesser weight bullet( can't recall is it was 55 or 69) out of a 22BR, pencil clean through a few chucks.

I'd not even worry for one second on killing power of a 75AM inside of 700 on a coyote. That's me, not everyone else. Last I remember some say a .223 isn't enough at any range.
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Originally Posted By: Tim Neitzke"So... how far do YOU feel comfortable shooting at a coyote? At what point does the .223 run out of enough energy to put one down with a good hit. Does it not concern you that if you even make a good wind call and hit him right where you want to, your bullet will fail to do it's job because it has slowed down too much? "

Depends on the bullet, the critter and the range.
The 75AM blows good holes in chucks in the 5-650 range. At the same distance, I watched a lesser weight bullet( can't recall is it was 55 or 69) out of a 22BR pencil clean through a few chucks.

I'd not even worry for one second on killing power of a 75AM inside of 700 on a coyote. That's me, not everyone else. Last I remember some say a .223 isn't enough at any range.
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That was probably me with the sierra 69gr HPBT match and they DO NOT expand very well even in the BR case @ 650+ yds and they were not a light load either
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But they did shoot...
 
Originally Posted By: bryan hI have been told on here that 1/7 twist was no good but I will take it over anything else.

7 is very fast, what bullet in what gun is this ?
 
If you have never killed a coyote with heavy bullets, you should try it. If you have never shot pd's or chucks with fast twist 223, you should try it. It makes the 223 into a different animal entirely.

60gr v-max, 65gr Sierra Gk's and Speer 70gr sp are all absolute hammers. Noticeably over lighter offerings. The match bullets of 68-69gr and 75gr kill amazingly well despite critics who say otherwise.

I run mostly 9 twist with a couple 12 twist 223's. I like the 9 twist the best.
 
Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeYes they sure did shoot well, Kevin. We keep thinking you was missing till we watched the impact on one. Know we know better.
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Yeap.. and the 75gr Amax @ 3700 is a whole different story
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and leaves No Doubt!
 
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